mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2014 11:31:21 GMT -5
well remember, kids are abig audience for WWE these days so there's certain things they don't want to do. But to be honest I never found whining throwing tantrums or some of the extreme violence they went to. But if Rock/Austin with Austin turning is considered Austin's biggest match(I don't think it is) then that explains WWE's not wanting to do with it with Cena. Fans hated the character they came out of it most of the time But most didn't whine, Austin's paranoid heel character did so sorry if I put that across badly, but Austin didn't whine when he was afraid he wasn't good enough, he cut the backstage interview promo with JR & The Rock, the legendary 'I have to beat you Rock' promo. He didn't even whine when he was a heel for the first few months really, he started that when he & Triple H faced Kane/'Taker etc as his paranoia had deepend at that point (again, proof of great writing at the time). I also think the false myth WWE put across with Austin's heel character not being over needs to be dispelled, if any of us have watched mid to late 2001 PPVs/Raws, Austin was booed massively. He was THE bad guy in the WWE until their own lack of confidence screwed them over and they reset the face/heel alignments. Angle was an amazing face, Austin was a brilliant heel. Wasted potential and excuses put the myth of Austin's heel run failing in the air. They sold worry and sold the impact of losses, and more and more you see this not occuring with face characters. Rey because he never seemed to be capable of putting across how loses bothered him, Cena because his character is the single most inconsistent & contrarian wrestling character in history, Face Batista when he just asked for more matches and never reacted different when he had or had lost the belt. It's one of those strange situations where the bad guys (in kayfabe bad guys, CM Punk got cheered by a ton of the audience during his heel run but was still a bad guy) are just more interesting because they seem to want to achieve things, and if they don't they see they need to try new things to get somewhere. The good guys being too confident makes the bad guys more sympathetic, thus making alignments mixed beyond "grey areas". The writing needs to improve, it's not a condition where the fans are too picky all the time, most of the time hardcore fans (the likes of us on the board) and those in arenas cheer for the same people, we're all marks to some degree, and people liking Daniel Bryan and Cesaro (pre-April this year) and The Shield (pre-break up) proves that. I mean, Brock's reason for wanting to be the champion is so he can make the most money and defend it, whilst proving that he is the outright be(a)st, knowing full well in his own mind along with most other wrestler's kayfabe opinions that he is in the top 1% of wrestlers. He seems driven enough compared to Cena as (in my opinion) Cena with the belt does not act any differently to how he does without the belt, subtlety is important, I don't expect Cena to go on full Money Mayweather with the title, but something...anything. that's because Cena's character is there for the fans. He's there to entertain them and put on the best show possible. Being champ just helps put on the best show by making the best opponents available, and giving him more time, plus it means he's not walking out of the match or getting intentionallly dqed personally I don't get the whole thing about face confidence making the heel more sympathetic. Delusional arrogance is just as annoying as deserved arrogance
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 27, 2014 12:45:17 GMT -5
-Cena slut shaming Eve, which my Zod we covered to death but is still pertinent.
-HHH Pedigrees London/Kendrick post them helping him
-Batista heelishly attacking Khali's championship celebration
All of these are examples of actions a superhero babyface shouldn't engage in.
Evidence, clear, inarguable and played out right on-screen.
Sure there are other examples; that's off top of my head.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2014 14:05:38 GMT -5
-Cena slut shaming Eve, which my Zod we covered to death but is still pertinent. -HHH Pedigrees London/Kendrick post them helping him -Batista heelishly attacking Khali's championship celebration All of these are examples of actions a superhero babyface shouldn't engage in. Evidence, clear, inarguable and played out right on-screen. Sure there are other examples; that's off top of my head. Trips vs Londrick you're right there was no justification Eve Cena and the "slut shaming": if a woman uses her sexuality to do something bad it should just as viable a target for being called on as anything else Batista- I believe that was intended to be him running in to save the audience as much as anything
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 27, 2014 14:10:21 GMT -5
-Cena slut shaming Eve, which my Zod we covered to death but is still pertinent. -HHH Pedigrees London/Kendrick post them helping him -Batista heelishly attacking Khali's championship celebration All of these are examples of actions a superhero babyface shouldn't engage in. Evidence, clear, inarguable and played out right on-screen. Sure there are other examples; that's off top of my head. Eve Cena and the "slut shaming": if a woman uses her sexuality to do something bad it should just as viable a target for being called on as anything else The "hero" has zero moral high ground to shame anyone, and have it defended and praised in the narrative, when he himself is a willing and eager participant in the act. He was a hypocrite. This has been explained to you ad-nauseam and cannot be argued.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 27, 2014 14:16:37 GMT -5
lol
This is pathological now.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 14:19:03 GMT -5
-Cena slut shaming Eve, which my Zod we covered to death but is still pertinent. -HHH Pedigrees London/Kendrick post them helping him -Batista heelishly attacking Khali's championship celebration All of these are examples of actions a superhero babyface shouldn't engage in. Evidence, clear, inarguable and played out right on-screen. Sure there are other examples; that's off top of my head. Eve Cena and the "slut shaming": if a woman uses her sexuality to do something bad it should just as viable a target for being called on as anything else ...wow. It's been explained to you before, but that's a rape-culture level excuse. "Doesn't matter if the guy is 50% involved and receptive, that's her problem, slut! She's only her sex and a man is more than that!"
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 27, 2014 14:27:29 GMT -5
Cena didn't get called out for kissing his new BFF's girl (while Cena was married, mind you), so there's no justification for them turning the entire thing into a slut-shaming angle for Eve.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2014 14:28:45 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned if Cena was receptive he wouldn't have regretted it immediately after. And here's the youtube video of it, with a description showing I'm not the only one feeling it wasn't mutual. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlszUIdgW4plus look at Cena shaking his head no as soon as they stop.
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 27, 2014 14:32:20 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned if Cena was receptive he wouldn't have regretted it immediately after. And here's the youtube video of it, with a description showing I'm not the only one feeling it wasn't mutual. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlszUIdgW4plus look at Cena shaking his head no as soon as they stop. Because a 6'1, 250 pound man couldn't safely prevent a woman 100 pounds lighter than him from kissing him. Realizing something is a mistake afterwards =/= not willingly participating in it at the time. He had his arms around her and was reciprocating everything, the video shows it plain as day.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 27, 2014 14:37:44 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned if Cena was receptive he wouldn't have regretted it immediately after. And here's the youtube video of it, with a description showing I'm not the only one feeling it wasn't mutual. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlszUIdgW4plus look at Cena shaking his head no as soon as they stop. The video proves you wrong. Just like it did the previous two dozen times it's been posted here to prove you wrong.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2014 14:40:43 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned if Cena was receptive he wouldn't have regretted it immediately after. And here's the youtube video of it, with a description showing I'm not the only one feeling it wasn't mutual. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlszUIdgW4plus look at Cena shaking his head no as soon as they stop. Because a 6'1, 250 pound man couldn't safely prevent a woman 100 pounds lighter than him from kissing him. Realizing something is a mistake afterwards =/= not willingly participating in it at the time. He had his arms around her and was reciprocating everything, the video shows it plain as day. wow, so he was actually supposed to physically stop her from doing that? I can't believe that wouldn't be considered WORSE than what did happen
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 27, 2014 14:42:40 GMT -5
Because a 6'1, 250 pound man couldn't safely prevent a woman 100 pounds lighter than him from kissing him. Realizing something is a mistake afterwards =/= not willingly participating in it at the time. He had his arms around her and was reciprocating everything, the video shows it plain as day. wow, so he was actually supposed to physically stop her from doing that? I can't believe that wouldn't be considered WORSE than what did happen Under no logical scenario would that be the case.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 27, 2014 14:42:42 GMT -5
Even allowing "I shouldn't have done that, I regret it., it's still a dick move to treat the woman you kissed back like a total slut and that you weren't responsible for your own actions.
"I shouldn't have done that, it was wrong of us." is WORLDS apart from "What a Ho!"
The latter is a play right out of the archetype fratboy douche handbook.
That's not heroic.
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 27, 2014 14:44:30 GMT -5
wow, so he was actually supposed to physically stop her from doing that? I can't believe that wouldn't be considered WORSE than what did happen *Eve goes in for a kiss* *Cena steps away and says no* *Eve goes in for a kiss* *Cena gently holds her out at arm's length to stop it* *Eve goes in for a kiss* *Cena backs away the second he realizes what she's doing* so on and so forth. There are many ways to turn down being kissed by your friend's girl that would be much better than making out with her in front of him then acting like it was a mistake afterwards, then setting out to humiliate her infront of the entire audience. I in no way suggested that he throw her to the ground, punch her in the face, or do anything that'd cause her physical harm, only not let himself be kissed. What he did was a dick move, plain and simple, and we can't even use the excuse of "aww, shucks, this is just Cena being naive" because that's never been his character before, nor do we have any reason to believe that Cena is too innocent to be taken aback completely by someone's 'unwanted' advances.
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Post by eJm on Jul 27, 2014 14:46:18 GMT -5
Because a 6'1, 250 pound man couldn't safely prevent a woman 100 pounds lighter than him from kissing him. Realizing something is a mistake afterwards =/= not willingly participating in it at the time. He had his arms around her and was reciprocating everything, the video shows it plain as day. wow, so he was actually supposed to physically stop her from doing that? I can't believe that wouldn't be considered WORSE than what did happen Hang on, why would that be considered WORSE? It's not like he'd be grabbing her arms and AA'ing her onto the floor. He'd just push her away a bit. He'd also say 'Eve, this isn't right, Ryder is my friend and he's into you and I also have a wife (if they planned on bringing that into kayfabe, which they didn't). We can't do this'
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 27, 2014 14:46:39 GMT -5
Cena didn't get called out for kissing his new BFF's girl (while Cena was married, mind you), so there's no justification for them turning the entire thing into a slut-shaming angle for Eve. There was this gem from the Rock: I forgot about that, that's pretty damn funny. It's a pity that feud got toned down so much, there's a lot both guys could have worked with.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 14:47:04 GMT -5
It's time for the scanners head explosion gif.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 27, 2014 14:55:47 GMT -5
Let's get back on track, guys.
You can't really compare the Rock and Austin to the way they write their faces today, and my original post was talking about the types of babyfaces that POST-90s Vince tends to create.
I'll grant you something: I don't look back fondly on the Attitude Era in WWF. I watched most of it in 1998, some of 1999, then got totally turned off by it and bored by a lot of it, and much of that stemmed from my boredom with Rock and Austin, so I'm really in no way a fanboy of either from this period (though I friggin' love "Stunning Steve" from WCW).
Nevertheless, both guys got very popular due to being something new, and because they went the "turn your own personality up" route, they weren't usually coming off as "phony" in a major way. Austin was the right guy in the right era since he was more of an antihero than anything else, while Rock's charisma, even if him repeating the same promo week after week annoyed me to the point that I quit watching, still made him impossible to ignore for most fans.
Since then, Vince has apparently wanted every face to be the Rock or Steve Austin, to results ranging from "disastrous" all the way up to "meh".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 14:55:56 GMT -5
lol This is pathological now. I'm almost convinced that this dude has some masochistic need to get all of his arguments destroyed. This thread is something else.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 27, 2014 14:59:35 GMT -5
The greatest ever defeated hero moment IMO was Hogan at WMVI
He lost, looked devestated and exhausted, gave the belt to Warrior, hugged him, then while Warrior was celebrating, Hogan got into one of those carts and left, but still looked gutted at losing the title.
It was beautiful. While all the lights were shining on the ring and the Warrior with fireworks and shit, Hogan was in near darkness.
Perfect ending.
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