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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 29, 2014 15:32:38 GMT -5
That doesn't change the fact that most of the people in the WWE locker room WANT to be the #1 guy. So yeah, it's so easy to be an armchair booker and pretend we know PRECISELY how to write mainstream television 52 weeks a year straight. But you still have to manage the egos and personalities and they need to be able to handle the material they're given. And no matter what WWE does, we think certain talent aren't getting a fair shake, meanwhile we have no idea what happens behind the scenes. I understand what you mean about talent being jobbed where they seem meaningless but that's less of a problem than the titles being meaningless because they don't build strong feuds around them. That's a bigger problem for sure. But talent-wise, the IWC talks themselves in circles non-stop about WWE abusing/misusing talent when at the end of the day, the cream always rises to the top anyhow. They want to of course. But they all can't. That doesn't mean they don't deserve SOMETHING. Something they CAN parlay into a bigger role once a spot becomes available due to injury or hiatus, even on just a temporary basis. Better than wasting money paying people to sit on the sidelines. The midcard titles are meaningless because they lack strong contenders. Everyone is either jobbed to hell or seemingly bigger than the titles. And yes, the cream always rises to the top. But even if they do, they end up not accomplishing as much as they could have if WWE simply acknowledged their talents from the start. Look at Daniel Bryan. He spent more time proving himself when he should've already been The Guy than actually getting to be on top. If he never comes back, then that's yet another career WWE wasted. I'm sorry to use you as an example, CATCH_US, and I know I technically am putting words in your mouth here. But you've got a Bryan avatar. You're a fan. And so am I, but can you really, objectively tell me that WWE will have "wasted" the same Bryan who is a former US champ, had a memorable and highly regarded Tag title run with Kane, got a long underdog main event push culminating with a WM30 win and a powwow with Hogan on Smackdown afterwards, and is a recurring focal point on their E! reality show, if he never returns? Possibly due to understandable wear and tear? Or with me, I'm a Cena mark, I obviously can't be totally objective about him. And it's the same way with fans of every other wrestler ever. We don't know what the f*** we're talking about at the end of the day, we're all a bunch of fanboy dorks. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 15:41:12 GMT -5
They want to of course. But they all can't. That doesn't mean they don't deserve SOMETHING. Something they CAN parlay into a bigger role once a spot becomes available due to injury or hiatus, even on just a temporary basis. Better than wasting money paying people to sit on the sidelines. The midcard titles are meaningless because they lack strong contenders. Everyone is either jobbed to hell or seemingly bigger than the titles. And yes, the cream always rises to the top. But even if they do, they end up not accomplishing as much as they could have if WWE simply acknowledged their talents from the start. Look at Daniel Bryan. He spent more time proving himself when he should've already been The Guy than actually getting to be on top. If he never comes back, then that's yet another career WWE wasted. I'm sorry to use you as an example, CATCH_US, and I know I technically am putting words in your mouth here. But you've got a Bryan avatar. You're a fan. And so am I, but can you really, objectively tell me that WWE will have "wasted" the same Bryan who is a former US champ, had a memorable and highly regarded Tag title run with Kane, got a long underdog main event push culminating with a WM30 win and a powwow with Hogan on Smackdown afterwards, and is a recurring focal point on their E! reality show, if he never returns? Possibly due to understandable wear and tear? Or with me, I'm a Cena mark, I obviously can't be totally objective about him. And it's the same way with fans of every other wrestler ever. We don't know what the f*** we're talking about at the end of the day, we're all a bunch of fanboy dorks. I think even Cena's potential was wasted. He's a solid dependable workhorse who should be on the level of Hogan, Austin or Rock but isn't because imo he never had the moment where he was truly "made". He won the title, then started working with the "real stars" simply by virtue of having the championship, until we "accepted" him as a top guy over time. His biggest career moments are OTHER wrestlers being put over at his expense. |
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 29, 2014 16:33:33 GMT -5
I believe that everyone should be pushed and given a fair shot, but if they don't catch on then they SHOULD be jobbed out until their contract is up, that's how wrestling works. You can't have someone winning matches "just because he used to be on that level" it holds back the guys he is beating from being given a fair shot themselves. Then you don't have him winning matches. You CAN job him out. You just don't job him out to bottom of the card guys or NXT guys. He just doesn't lose cleanly to anyone lower than say, Dolph Ziggler. He doesn't beat the new guys coming up. He just stays away from them until those guys actually reach the level he's being kept at. THEN they beat him and surpass him. But the problem there is, if the guy has had his fair shot, and failed at it, then that's when you should job him to lower-level guys [even bottom of the card/NXT guys] and prop the NEXT people to have their chance up while he still means something, instead of making those losses meaningless. That's the other side of using people's potential correctly- if the guy has taken, keep him valid, if it fails, use them as the guy to build up the next batch of talent. |
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Jul 29, 2014 16:37:50 GMT -5
It took two pages to say: fire Dunn and reboot? You guys are slipping.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 16:49:23 GMT -5
Then you don't have him winning matches. You CAN job him out. You just don't job him out to bottom of the card guys or NXT guys. He just doesn't lose cleanly to anyone lower than say, Dolph Ziggler. He doesn't beat the new guys coming up. He just stays away from them until those guys actually reach the level he's being kept at. THEN they beat him and surpass him. But the problem there is, if the guy has had his fair shot, and failed at it, then that's when you should job him to lower-level guys [even bottom of the card/NXT guys] and prop the NEXT people to have their chance up while he still means something, instead of making those losses meaningless. That's the other side of using people's potential correctly- if the guy has taken, keep him valid, if it fails, use them as the guy to build up the next batch of talent. In this current era there hasn't really been any true failures. Just guys who've been mishandled and booked incorrectly/improperly. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 29, 2014 16:57:41 GMT -5
But the problem there is, if the guy has had his fair shot, and failed at it, then that's when you should job him to lower-level guys [even bottom of the card/NXT guys] and prop the NEXT people to have their chance up while he still means something, instead of making those losses meaningless. That's the other side of using people's potential correctly- if the guy has taken, keep him valid, if it fails, use them as the guy to build up the next batch of talent. In this current era there hasn't really been any true failures. Just guys who've been mishandled and booked incorrectly/improperly. See, it's statements like this where you only have your perspective and that's it. You don't work backstage for WWE so you have no clue in any way, shape, or form how they're being coached and mentored backstage. So for you to stay "none of the talents have failed, only bookers have failed" is simply bogus. Case in point: Sin Cara # 1. A true failure that was 100% on him and we can all agree on that. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 17:13:33 GMT -5
They need time management and a set of rules to stick to so they can't be lazy fools:
For a company so hard on production their bizarre moments where some matches on Raw go over 20 minutes and some get under 5 is downright baffling. On TV, no match should go over 20 minutes and no match should go under 5, then again I think worthwhile/longer/gimmick matches should be PPV only. The TV shows are story shows shot in sequence to get you to watch the important PPV at the end of the month. With that being said, no promos on TV should be over 10 minutes either.
Add in that you should NOT be recalling moments that happened on the show more than once an hour, it's pointless. Fans aren't ignorant for the most part, people in arenas aren't devoid of attention spans, people can follow simple storylines without hand holding.
If you had specific limits to how long matches/promos could go, you'd be protecting wrestlers from wearing their bodies out and stopping people from having their mystique ruined with nonsense overly long promo/beat down segments.
The biggest thing time management would achieve is that if there's a 3 hour Raw they'd be forced to develop actual stories for the undercard wrestlers who don't usually get let out of the playpen. Which in turn should make fans more familiar and supportive of their characters. Which in turn should make the company more money/less desperate if injuries happen and they need to fill a hole with another popular wrestler.
Of course not everyone's potential will always be maximized, but that's a good sign, if you've got such a talented roster that not everyone can fulfill every possible success then you're in a lucky spot. The WWE is in that spot right now in both NXT & on the main shows. It's their job to make everyone look as good as possible, something they CAN do, but often seem to not care to.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 17:17:14 GMT -5
In this current era there hasn't really been any true failures. Just guys who've been mishandled and booked incorrectly/improperly. See, it's statements like this where you only have your perspective and that's it. You don't work backstage for WWE so you have no clue in any way, shape, or form how they're being coached and mentored backstage. So for you to stay "none of the talents have failed, only bookers have failed" is simply bogus. Case in point: Sin Cara # 1. A true failure that was 100% on him and we can all agree on that. I just feel that most of these guys can thrive if the company did things a bit differently. Such as having a stronger undercard and better time management. Talents could do better that way instead of being rushed into roles they may not be ready for simply because there's nothing for them to work their way up from. A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely. WWE has 7 hours of programming, 8 if you count NXT along with running 2 sets of 2-3 house shows every weekend. There should be plenty of room for people to work and showcase their talents. |
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DeathRay
Don Corleone
about to kick your head in... with a DON!!!
Posts: 1,277
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Post by DeathRay on Jul 29, 2014 17:32:10 GMT -5
Aside from everything said before, I think they should shorten the distance between the champion and his challengers, and realize when to transition someone from challenger to challenge. You can't have any drama when the champion's win is a given, and you can't treat your champion as an underdog for ever. He has to either become the man to beat, or fall down the card. The treatment of John Cena is a good example of those 2 things.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 29, 2014 17:42:42 GMT -5
See, it's statements like this where you only have your perspective and that's it. You don't work backstage for WWE so you have no clue in any way, shape, or form how they're being coached and mentored backstage. So for you to stay "none of the talents have failed, only bookers have failed" is simply bogus. Case in point: Sin Cara # 1. A true failure that was 100% on him and we can all agree on that. I just feel that most of these guys can thrive if the company did things a bit differently. Such as having a stronger undercard and better time management. Talents could do better that way instead of being rushed into roles they may not be ready for simply because there's nothing for them to work their way up from. A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely. WWE has 7 hours of programming, 8 if you count NXT along with running 2 sets of 2-3 house shows every weekend. There should be plenty of room for people to work and showcase their talents. I'm very confused by this post. When you say "A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely" who exactly are you speaking about? Let's name names. |
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Sicho100
Hank Scorpio
Easily Confused.
Posts: 5,962
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Post by Sicho100 on Jul 29, 2014 17:50:55 GMT -5
Time off.
Individual talents may fight it (particularly since it would likely cut into their royalty checks), but WWE should try to implement a policy where they give everyone, say, 3 months off per year. Stagger the time off so that everything can stay fresh, but still spread around the top guys so that people don't just turn away when, say Cena and Bryan are off. It would force WWE to try to make everyone seem important, so that when Cena and Sheamus are off, Barrett and Dolph can carry the show. It would give the talents that time to recover (they can even have certain people - the Cenas of the world - basically be ambassadors during their time off - they can still do the media appearances, but not wrestle). Individual matches would seem important, since they would be less likely to happen, and it would keep individuals fresh, since they would be gone for those 3 months. Maybe Del Rio would get some reaction when he'd come back after those three months and beat up Zack Ryder.
Then, WWE can have more top guys, continue to sell their stuff even when they aren't on TV, and the talent gets much-needed time to recover.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 17:58:47 GMT -5
I just feel that most of these guys can thrive if the company did things a bit differently. Such as having a stronger undercard and better time management. Talents could do better that way instead of being rushed into roles they may not be ready for simply because there's nothing for them to work their way up from. A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely. WWE has 7 hours of programming, 8 if you count NXT along with running 2 sets of 2-3 house shows every weekend. There should be plenty of room for people to work and showcase their talents. I'm very confused by this post. When you say "A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely" who exactly are you speaking about? Let's name names. - Damien Sandow. I think it was the right call to have him lose his cash in, but he shouldn't have been dropped down the card as hard as he was. - R-Truth, who while not a total jobber, only appears once in a blue moon - Brad Maddox who completely disappeared despite being a serviceable hand. You yourself even made a thread about it at one point. - Alex Riley. An example of as I said, a guy being thrust into a role he wasn't ready for just because there was nothing to work up from. I'm going to assume that this was the answer you were waiting for so you could single his name out and poke fun at me for holding onto hope that he could still be successful and have a respectable career. - Zack Ryder. For reasons stated in the threads that pop up every week or so. - And of course all of the guys who were released last month. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 29, 2014 18:05:57 GMT -5
I'm very confused by this post. When you say "A guy may not be main event material, but that doesn't mean he should be written off completely" who exactly are you speaking about? Let's name names. - Damien Sandow. I think it was the right call to have him lose his cash in, but he shouldn't have been dropped down the card as hard as he was. - R-Truth, who while not a total jobber, only appears once in a blue moon - Brad Maddox who completely disappeared despite being a serviceable hand. You yourself even made a thread about it at one point. - Alex Riley. An example of as I said, a guy being thrust into a role he wasn't ready for just because there was nothing to work up from. I'm going to assume that this was the answer you were waiting for so you could single his name out and poke fun at me for holding onto hope that he could still be successful and have a respectable career. - Zack Ryder. For reasons stated in the threads that pop up every week or so. - And of course all of the guys who were released last month. I agree that I have no idea what on earth happened to Maddox. I always enjoyed him in FCW and am clueless about them making him a ref, GM, etc. Sandow... no idea what happened to him. But based on the characters they're making him do, he seems pretty limited in his range anyway. But yeah, his fall from grace was puzzling. Again, that doesn't mean I blindly blame creative though. If reports were true, we know what happened with Riley. And IF that stuff is to be believed, he doesn't really have the mental stamina to be a high level talent anyhow. Ryder... most people on here agree with his jobber status since he's a one dimensional cartoon character at best. And R-Truth... the guy is almost 43 years old, dude. He's in the exact role you would expect him to be. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 18:16:40 GMT -5
^My point is that even if they don't have what it takes to be high level talents, they should still at least be happy little worker bees, being over, credible and entertaining in their own right on a smaller level just like the undercard of past eras. That is how WWE can maximize potential.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 29, 2014 18:23:06 GMT -5
^My point is that even if they don't have what it takes to be high level talents, they should still at least be happy little worker bees, being over, credible and entertaining in their own right on a smaller level just like the undercard of past eras. That is how WWE can maximize potential. I think we can agree that this obviously applies to R-Truth and to some other degree, Sandow. The dude is on TV every single week [trying to be] entertaining fans. |
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keezy
Dennis Stamp
full time slacker
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Post by keezy on Jul 29, 2014 18:24:34 GMT -5
Send some established stars to NXT, it shouldn't be seen as a downgrade at this point.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 18:30:44 GMT -5
Send some established stars to NXT, it shouldn't be seen as a downgrade at this point. It kind of is even if they are putting on solid matches every week. NXT IS the developmental show no matter how many 5 star classics they may put on. It would be nice to see guys get airtime. Problem with NXT is that having too many main roster guys wrestling there undermines the developmental talent. And NXT championship matches featuring main roster guys tend to be foregone conclusions because none of them are going to touch NXT gold. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 18:41:39 GMT -5
^My point is that even if they don't have what it takes to be high level talents, they should still at least be happy little worker bees, being over, credible and entertaining in their own right on a smaller level just like the undercard of past eras. That is how WWE can maximize potential. I think we can agree that this obviously applies to R-Truth and to some other degree, Sandow. The dude is on TV every single week [trying to be] entertaining fans. It's still a fall from the status level he was supposedly on but 10 months ago (upper midcard, verging on main event), given the midcard is largely non-existent outside of upper-midcard, verging on main eventers he's become the comedy heel. The same thing happened to Ryder, because he dropped from the comedy midcard babyface champion who got a midcard title win...and then was dropped down until he was off TV for months at a time. The company needs to fix it's divisions and fix it's time keeping, there's no reason a blossoming star like Sandow should be dipping into kayfabe comedy waters, there's no reason one of the single most popular wrestlers to the live audience at one time in Ryder should be off TV for most of the year, there's no reason why THE babyface of late 2012/early 2013 in Ryback should be in a tag team with captain nobody, there's no reason why a once kayfabe over monster in Sheamus (Triple H feud, retiring Jamie Noble, beating JOhn Cena for the title in a gimmick match) has been shoehorned into roles which have destroyed his ability to main event again. And that's before you look at guys like JTG who were not put on TV once for half a decade despite being more than capable. A sheer waste of talent. That's where the WWE wastes potential. It happens too frequently to too many wrestlers, the WWE isn't flexible enough and seems to cut off their nose to spite their own face a lot of the time. With some people like R-Truth (synthetic weed) and Regal (non-prescribed drugs) it's not the companies fault for ruining major pushes, but for the guys who seem to be wasted it's just...bad form. I mean, half of the people I mentioned in this post I don't even like, but I like when fans are into wrestlers, I like boos/cheers and a mix of characters on every show. |
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Jul 29, 2014 20:09:07 GMT -5
I think we can agree that this obviously applies to R-Truth and to some other degree, Sandow. The dude is on TV every single week [trying to be] entertaining fans. It's still a fall from the status level he was supposedly on but 10 months ago (upper midcard, verging on main event), given the midcard is largely non-existent outside of upper-midcard, verging on main eventers he's become the comedy heel. The same thing happened to Ryder, because he dropped from the comedy midcard babyface champion who got a midcard title win...and then was dropped down until he was off TV for months at a time. The company needs to fix it's divisions and fix it's time keeping, there's no reason a blossoming star like Sandow should be dipping into kayfabe comedy waters, there's no reason one of the single most popular wrestlers to the live audience at one time in Ryder should be off TV for most of the year, there's no reason why THE babyface of late 2012/early 2013 in Ryback should be in a tag team with captain nobody, there's no reason why a once kayfabe over monster in Sheamus (Triple H feud, retiring Jamie Noble, beating JOhn Cena for the title in a gimmick match) has been shoehorned into roles which have destroyed his ability to main event again. And that's before you look at guys like JTG who were not put on TV once for half a decade despite being more than capable. A sheer waste of talent. That's where the WWE wastes potential. It happens too frequently to too many wrestlers, the WWE isn't flexible enough and seems to cut off their nose to spite their own face a lot of the time. With some people like R-Truth (synthetic weed) and Regal (non-prescribed drugs) it's not the companies fault for ruining major pushes, but for the guys who seem to be wasted it's just...bad form. I mean, half of the people I mentioned in this post I don't even like, but I like when fans are into wrestlers, I like boos/cheers and a mix of characters on every show. Again, this doesn't mean WWE is "wasting potential." Some wrestlers have limits that are not conducive to, say, the main event. Ryback being a good example of that. As I've said, it's INCREDIBLY easy to be an armchair booker and judge everything WWE does regarding handling talent. But the way they are now with NXT, their feeder system is HUNGRY. They don't have time to hold everybody's hands and baby them and nurse them. This is why Cena is still #1. He works harder than everybody else and nobody can deny that. So the harder people work, the more they'll be rewarded, IF there is space. All the current top talent on Raw, SD and NXT ARE the hardest workers in WWE today. So it's not like the system is broken or anything. Some fans just can't come to terms with the fact that their favourite wrestlers aren't as competitive or work hard enough, etc. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 29, 2014 20:31:46 GMT -5
^if those guys are hungrier, more competitive, better, etc. Then of course they deserve better pushes and to be higher up the card. But again that doesn't mean these other guys should be nobodies. Those guys do work hard as well. Hell those new guys should be feuding with the likes of Ryder on their way to the top. I and other fans with a similar mindset just want to be able to enjoy the work of those we like.
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