tapping out and fighting spirit

[mrjl]

in a recent thread here someone mentioned WWE's style of dealing with submission holds, with the victim being in the hold forever and fighting it off. There was a suggestion they should change to making the key avoiding the hold and a lot of agreement. Basically the idea was it makes submission holds and the people who tap quickly look bad and it's unbelievable because of the risk of injury involved.

It reminded me of something a few months ago. At the first NXT live special Sami Zayn kicked out of a Cesaro move at one and then had no strength to avoid a second finisher and was quickly pinned. This is apparently based on the idea fighting spirit in Japan.

Now I want to know how this is a worse idea than fighting a submission hold? A move doesn't have to be a hold to break a jaw, a leg, a neck or a back? What if the guy decides to pull a Vader and his next move is a powerbomb on concrete?

Fighting a submission to try to get back in a match to try to win seems a lot less risky than standing there and asking your opponent to do whatever he likes to you.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

In my mind every worker should study a tape of Austin selling submissions, the ankle lock, and the sharpshooter from wrestlemania 13, like he rather die before tapping, he was a master with his facial expressions.
I think most guys don't fight them off, because the agents know that they can't do it and make it look good, I like this match for all the wrong reasons, but on the first nxt Daniel Bryan vs Darren Young, it got to the point that Bryan had to help Young escape from his own submission hold, not selling the cattle mutilation pissed me off greatly, another good example was the Regal-Goldberg match. I don't think, I may be wrong, that most of the roster knows how to even sell submissions with their facial expressions, one moment they're fine and then the tap comes, I wish a veteran would stretched them for real.

[Kevin Hamilton]

For the most part, submissions should be like any other finisher--if you lock it in, that's it.

Granted, finishers have been devalued over the years too.

Fighting spirit should only be a thing like 2% of the time.

You shouldnt have dudes fighting out of submissions, or kicking out of finishers except in the most special of circumstances. Otherwise you lose the entire psychology of the match&mystique of the hold/move; and it's just a video game.

[Just call me D.j.m.]

I think this is a casualty of the WWE "TV Style". When someone is locked in a submission, the cameras always make sure to have the perfect picture on the person's face so you can see how much agony they're in and see them sell, sell, sell, sell, sell the move before they make the ultra-slow, ultra-long, ultra-entertainy crawl to the ropes.

Quick tapouts to avoid injury are rare in WWE and they usually don't work thanks to the way WWE has made tapping out to a hold look in general.

1. If you tap out, you're a bitchy bitchy bitchfaced bitch and deserve chants to remind you of such.
2. If you tap out quickly, it's not so you avoid injury, it's because you suck and aren't very good and are probably a heel who has no upward momentum.

And the idea of a kickout at 1 in a legit false finish is so unfathomable in WWE, that I don't even remember if it has ever happen or if it ever WILL happen. Fans have a Pavlovian response to the 2 count now. You remove that, and the chemistry of the match may completely fall apart and a lot of guys won't know what to do.

[Deleted]

I'd have people pass out from submissions. The pain is more for their body--but not their mind--to withstand and they lose the ability (not the will) to withstand it any longer.

[67 more]

Jul 30, 2014 8:24:16 GMT -5 mrjl said:

in a recent thread here someone mentioned WWE's style of dealing with submission holds, with the victim being in the hold forever and fighting it off. There was a suggestion they should change to making the key avoiding the hold and a lot of agreement. Basically the idea was it makes submission holds and the people who tap quickly look bad and it's unbelievable because of the risk of injury involved.

It reminded me of something a few months ago. At the first NXT live special Sami Zayn kicked out of a Cesaro move at one and then had no strength to avoid a second finisher and was quickly pinned. This is apparently based on the idea fighting spirit in Japan.

Now I want to know how this is a worse idea than fighting a submission hold? A move doesn't have to be a hold to break a jaw, a leg, a neck or a back? What if the guy decides to pull a Vader and his next move is a powerbomb on concrete?

Fighting a submission to try to get back in a match to try to win seems a lot less risky than standing there and asking your opponent to do whatever he likes to you.

That was me who suggested that! Yay, I was noticed!

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

IMO, they should have people tap and make more of a point of how they're doing it to make sure they don't get injured and can live to fight another day.

You never see the commentators in UFC being like "HE TAPPED, WHAT A WEENIE!", they'll usually talk about how they had to tap to avoid serious injury. And if they don't tap and get injured, for example, Big Nog getting his arm snapped by Mir, it's usually seen as a bad thing rather than them getting praised for it.

Maybe occasionally have a face show fighting spirit and refuse to tap, but then make a point of how passionate they are, saying how their passion could have potentially ended their career because they wanted to win so bad.

[Kitty Shamrocks]

Now I want to know how this is a worse idea than fighting a submission hold?

1. It's not, really.
2. Not all of us like the "fighting spirit" thing anyway.
3. Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't BOTH be bad ideas?

[Deleted]

I'd just settle for people selling a submission hold after the fact during the match. You rarely see someone working over an injured body part anymore.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Nothing will ever beat Austin in the Sharpshooter to me.

If you got some Fightin' Spirit GIMME A HELL YEAH!

[Deleted]

I like the idea of people selling stuff in general more. Every wrestler seems indestructible now unless they get legit injured.

[Allie Kitsune]

I've said it before, but WWE just doesn't book submission holds as "Bone Snapping". They don't. They book them as "painful stretching". That's why when they do have a heel work the "bone-snapping" gimmick, they make the person doing the move do an extra quick jerking motion on it.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

The difference is that fighting spirit should be done sparingly. Like, maybe 2 times a year. The idea behind fighting spirit is that, unlike a submission where you clearly feel your limb about to snap, the wrestler feels no pain because so much adrenaline is flowing through them at that moment. For that brief second, the wrestler is the f***ing Terminator and nothing can stop him. It's a brief moment of invincibility, not surviving a painful hold for several seconds.

[Deleted]

I complain about this ALL THE TIME. Probably my biggest thing in pro wrestling. With MMA's break into the mainstream, any time Del Rio locks on that wretched armbar of his and the opponent struggles to the ropes much eye rolling ensues among my friends.

Look at the Joe/Kobashi match from ROH. Kobashi was clearly positioned as more dangerous than Joe, and eventually overwhelmed him, but he didn't escape the choke. The one time Joe went for it Kobashi fought it off and avoided it. So you had the sense that if Joe got that in, it was over

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2014 11:34:15 GMT -5 "Gentleman" AJ Powell said:

IMO, they should have people tap and make more of a point of how they're doing it to make sure they don't get injured and can live to fight another day.

You never see the commentators in UFC being like "HE TAPPED, WHAT A WEENIE!", they'll usually talk about how they had to tap to avoid serious injury. And if they don't tap and get injured, for example, Big Nog getting his arm snapped by Mir, it's usually seen as a bad thing rather than them getting praised for it.

Maybe occasionally have a face show fighting spirit and refuse to tap, but then make a point of how passionate they are, saying how their passion could have potentially ended their career because they wanted to win so bad.

I like it, but first they need to show the consequences of not tapping out. And it should happen to Cena. He should stay in a hold way too long because NEVER GIVE UP, get seroiusly injured and have to miss 6 months. When he comes back, he admits that what he did was stupid and advice all the little Cena-ites that sometimes, it's okay to admit defeat, as long as you dust yourself off and get back up.

[SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids]

Jul 30, 2014 12:16:28 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

I've said it before, but WWE just doesn't book submission holds as "Bone Snapping". They don't. They book them as "painful stretching". That's why when they do have a heel work the "bone-snapping" gimmick, they make the person doing the move do an extra quick jerking motion on it.

That's why the Brock/ HHH programs were so good, and why Lesnar should still garner respect.

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Jul 30, 2014 12:51:33 GMT -5 @rrnew said:

I complain about this ALL THE TIME. Probably my biggest thing in pro wrestling. With MMA's break into the mainstream, any time Del Rio locks on that wretched armbar of his and the opponent struggles to the ropes much eye rolling ensues among my friends.

Look at the Joe/Kobashi match from ROH. Kobashi was clearly positioned as more dangerous than Joe, and eventually overwhelmed him, but he didn't escape the choke. The one time Joe went for it Kobashi fought it off and avoided it. So you had the sense that if Joe got that in, it was over

Yeah, when you've got Ronda Rousey going around and snapping arms like no-one's business, it seems silly to have people getting locked in Del Rio's and not instantly be done. Have them fight out of it and not fully lock it in, but having them sit in it for ages is daft.

Jul 30, 2014 13:15:57 GMT -5 @lovehater said:

Jul 30, 2014 11:34:15 GMT -5 "Gentleman" AJ Powell said:

IMO, they should have people tap and make more of a point of how they're doing it to make sure they don't get injured and can live to fight another day.

You never see the commentators in UFC being like "HE TAPPED, WHAT A WEENIE!", they'll usually talk about how they had to tap to avoid serious injury. And if they don't tap and get injured, for example, Big Nog getting his arm snapped by Mir, it's usually seen as a bad thing rather than them getting praised for it.

Maybe occasionally have a face show fighting spirit and refuse to tap, but then make a point of how passionate they are, saying how their passion could have potentially ended their career because they wanted to win so bad.

I like it, but first they need to show the consequences of not tapping out. And it should happen to Cena. He should stay in a hold way too long because NEVER GIVE UP, get seroiusly injured and have to miss 6 months. When he comes back, he admits that what he did was stupid and advice all the little Cena-ites that sometimes, it's okay to admit defeat, as long as you dust yourself off and get back up.

And then they can just segue him away from "NEVER GIVE UP" back to "RISE ABOVE HATE". Shit, just change it to Rise Above, have him say for hate and adversity. And change his theme to a Black Flag song <___<

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2014 12:16:28 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

I've said it before, but WWE just doesn't book submission holds as "Bone Snapping". They don't. They book them as "painful stretching". That's why when they do have a heel work the "bone-snapping" gimmick, they make the person doing the move do an extra quick jerking motion on it.

I've always viewed this as kind of crucial to pro wrestling being presented as cartoon/fantasy violence as opposed to realistic/gory violence. The idea of Bret Hart putting someone in the sharpshooter and seeing their legs violently broken isn't really something that would cross your mind. I'm sure there's an interesting thesis to be written in there somewhere.

[Unaffiliated]

My biggest problem with it is that only the faces show this "fighting spirit" while heels are the complete opposite, tapping almost immediately.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Jul 30, 2014 15:40:50 GMT -5 @wvguitar said:

Jul 30, 2014 12:16:28 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

I've said it before, but WWE just doesn't book submission holds as "Bone Snapping". They don't. They book them as "painful stretching". That's why when they do have a heel work the "bone-snapping" gimmick, they make the person doing the move do an extra quick jerking motion on it.

I've always viewed this as kind of crucial to pro wrestling being presented as cartoon/fantasy violence as opposed to realistic/gory violence. The idea of Bret Hart putting someone in the sharpshooter and seeing their legs violently broken isn't really something that would cross your mind. I'm sure there's an interesting thesis to be written in there somewhere.

Shouldn't be broken, but the idea, even as a fantasy, should be that once he cinches the Sharpshooter in; that should be it.

I'll allow Austin type thing for the story they were trying to tell, and they still had him 'pass out from the pain'; but generally, with your finisher, it should FINISH the match.