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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 11, 2014 4:04:08 GMT -5
Until his chromosomes and genetic structure fundamentally change, I'll continue to consider him a man. Not wanting to criticise you because some people aren't really aware of this - but you do realise how many people this attitude will be hugely offensive to, right? Gender and sex are not the same thing, at all. As for Maloney, good for her, I hope she finds happiness this way.
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Post by Ryushinku on Aug 11, 2014 4:37:31 GMT -5
As someone that followed Lennox Lewis since '91, with Maloney as manager for almost the entire run, this has been a hell of a brain jarring story.
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BigJerichool222
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigJerichool222 on Aug 11, 2014 4:57:31 GMT -5
YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR WAYS, KELLIE
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 7:44:43 GMT -5
Until his chromosomes and genetic structure fundamentally change, I'll continue to consider him a man. Not wanting to criticise you because some people aren't really aware of this - but you do realise how many people this attitude will be hugely offensive to, right? Gender and sex are not the same thing, at all. As for Maloney, good for her, I hope she finds happiness this way. I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Aug 11, 2014 12:18:29 GMT -5
Not wanting to criticise you because some people aren't really aware of this - but you do realise how many people this attitude will be hugely offensive to, right? Gender and sex are not the same thing, at all. As for Maloney, good for her, I hope she finds happiness this way. I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true.
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Aug 11, 2014 12:51:37 GMT -5
Not wanting to criticise you because some people aren't really aware of this - but you do realise how many people this attitude will be hugely offensive to, right? Gender and sex are not the same thing, at all. As for Maloney, good for her, I hope she finds happiness this way. I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true. It's called being respectful. Simple as that. You call person whatever it is that person wants be identified as even if you don't agree with it. Have some courtesy please.
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Post by DiBiase is Good on Aug 11, 2014 12:55:32 GMT -5
I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true. It's called being respectful. Simple as that. You call person whatever it is that person wants be identified as even if you don't agree with it. Have some courtesy please. Then surely that article is being disrespectful as it clearly says "he"?
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Aug 11, 2014 12:56:12 GMT -5
It's called being respectful. Simple as that. You call person whatever it is that person wants be identified as even if you don't agree with it. Have some courtesy please. Then surely that article is being disrespectful as it clearly says "he"? If you want to get technical, then yeah.
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Post by DiBiase is Good on Aug 11, 2014 12:58:11 GMT -5
Then surely that article is being disrespectful as it clearly says "he"? If you want to get technical, then yeah. So what you're saying is she is technically a he? (That's a joke btw).
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Aug 11, 2014 12:59:29 GMT -5
If you want to get technical, then yeah. So what you're saying is she is technically a he? (That's a joke btw). Well, you can't spell she without he.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 13:00:41 GMT -5
I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true. That was also my face when I saw your post. I think a male is what is genetically a male. I think a female is what is genetically a female. This is the basic XX/XY sex determination. It's not a matter of what a person thinks, or believes, or wants. It's science, straight-up. That said, I have no problem with a woman acting as masculine as she wants, or a man acting as feminine as he wants. What constitutes "male" and "female" gender are social/cultural constructs anyway. But genetics trumps culture--the chromosomal break is the system humans are bound to. And using the same pronoun ("him" or "her") for two entirely different things is beyond ass backwards. If we must label gender, though, there's got to be a better way than saying "he" or "she," because that rapidly becomes all sorts of confusing.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Aug 11, 2014 13:07:48 GMT -5
That was also my face when I saw your post. I think a male is what is genetically a male. I think a female is what is genetically a female. This is the basic XX/XY sex determination. It's not a matter of what a person thinks, or believes, or wants. It's science, straight-up. That said, I have no problem with a woman acting as masculine as she wants, or a man acting as feminine as he wants. What constitutes "male" and "female" gender are social/cultural constructs anyway. But genetics trumps culture--the chromosomal break is the system humans are bound to. And using the same pronoun ("him" or "her") for two entirely different things is beyond ass backwards. If we must label gender, though, there's got to be a better way than saying "he" or "she," because that rapidly becomes all sorts of confusing. And I think that if my friend Jordan wants to be called a girl because she lives life as one despite the fact that she has a penis (for the time being) then she's a girl. It's not about what makes you comfortable dude. Why do you boil every argument down to being about you and your narrow, backwards view of the world?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 13:10:19 GMT -5
I never said they weren't, keep in mind. But I personally consider male or female status based upon sex, not gender. Due to the limitations of the English language, we only have 3 genders we can use, which doesn't cover the existence of other genders in other cultures. On a gender basis, "him," "her" and "it" are all inaccurate in such circumstances. So, for the same of simplicity and accuracy, I use the term as matches genetic sexual background. The whole idea that gender is two poles and that's all is outdated imo. We don't yet have the words for the other directions in the plane of gender, but that doesn't mean subbing in other words as absolutes is necessarily true. It's called being respectful. Simple as that. You call person whatever it is that person wants be identified as even if you don't agree with it. Have some courtesy please. Louise Alphonse de Bourbon claims to be King of France. Would that mean he is therefore King of France, lest we offend is royal tastes? But wait a minute, there's other guys who claim that same title. Does that make all of them King of France, too? The answer to all of these would be no. They're royal pretenders. Any of them can CLAIM to be sovereign monarch of the French people, but until one of them gets crowned on a big blue throne and lives at Versailles, there's really no substance to those claims, no matter how strong the claims may be. Or another example. I am not culturally Japanese. I was not born in Japan. I am not descended from anyone Japanese. If I claim to be Japanese, would that therefore mean that I am Japanese? The gender thing is just weird. I shouldn't have to alter reality to accommodate people because they may get offended. I don't think they should face ANY discrimination for who they are or what they do, but I also don't think they deserve special treatment. I fail to see why that's a bad thing.
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Aug 11, 2014 13:15:14 GMT -5
It's called being respectful. Simple as that. You call person whatever it is that person wants be identified as even if you don't agree with it. Have some courtesy please. Louise Alphonse de Bourbon claims to be King of France. Would that mean he is therefore King of France, lest we offend is royal tastes?
But wait a minute, there's other guys who claim that same title. Does that make all of them King of France, too?
The answer to all of these would be no. They're royal pretenders. Any of them can CLAIM to be sovereign monarch of the French people, but until one of them gets crowned on a big blue throne and lives at Versailles, there's really no substance to those claims, no matter how strong the claims may be.
Or another example. I am not culturally Japanese. I was not born in Japan. I am not descended from anyone Japanese. If I claim to be Japanese, would that therefore mean that I am Japanese?The gender thing is just weird. I shouldn't have to alter reality to accommodate people because they may get offended. I don't think they should face ANY discrimination for who they are or what they do, but I also don't think they deserve special treatment. I fail to see why that's a bad thing. The bolded stuff has nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all, so IDK why you typed that out. Just simply call whomever what it is they want to be identify as for their gender or sex. It's that simple. What? Is it that hard for you or something?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 13:17:22 GMT -5
That was also my face when I saw your post. I think a male is what is genetically a male. I think a female is what is genetically a female. This is the basic XX/XY sex determination. It's not a matter of what a person thinks, or believes, or wants. It's science, straight-up. That said, I have no problem with a woman acting as masculine as she wants, or a man acting as feminine as he wants. What constitutes "male" and "female" gender are social/cultural constructs anyway. But genetics trumps culture--the chromosomal break is the system humans are bound to. And using the same pronoun ("him" or "her") for two entirely different things is beyond ass backwards. If we must label gender, though, there's got to be a better way than saying "he" or "she," because that rapidly becomes all sorts of confusing. And I think that if my friend Jordan wants to be called a girl because she lives life as one despite the fact that she has a penis (for the time being) then she's a girl. It's not about what makes you comfortable dude. Why do you boil every argument down to being about you and your narrow, backwards view of the world? Your friend can live whatever life they want to live and that's okay. There is NOTHING wrong with that. But...that doesn't make them something that they are sexually not, however. If I claim that I am a bear and live in the woods, does that make me a bear? Nope. A bear is a quadrupedal caniform animal which belongs to the genus Ursus. The genetics don't match, so...sorry. Airball, no two points, I'm not a bear. I mean, I'm basing my argument on scientific fact and I'm called backwards! If the irony were any thicker, I'd need to be treated for metal poisoning.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Aug 11, 2014 13:25:22 GMT -5
And I think that if my friend Jordan wants to be called a girl because she lives life as one despite the fact that she has a penis (for the time being) then she's a girl. It's not about what makes you comfortable dude. Why do you boil every argument down to being about you and your narrow, backwards view of the world? Your friend can live whatever life they want to live and that's okay. There is NOTHING wrong with that. But...that doesn't make them something that they are sexually not, however. If I claim that I am a bear and live in the woods, does that make me a bear? Nope. A bear is a quadrupedal caniform animal which belongs to the genus Ursus. The genetics don't match, so...sorry. Airball, no two points, I'm not a bear. I mean, I'm basing my argument on scientific fact and I'm called backwards! If the irony were any thicker, I'd need to be treated for metal poisoning. You're arguing apples and thumbtacks. Did you undergo surgery to make yourself more bearlike in qualities? Did you pay for chemical treatments that altered your appearance as well as speech to be more like that of a bear? Did you entirely dedicate your life to living as a bear while demanding to be addressed as such? No, because that's f***ing stupid and has no place in this argument. I'm not someone you can just "lecture" and convince that your bizarre view of things is accurate because I have something you seem to lack and should probably get before attempting this conversation again, experience interacting with transgendered people. Try talking to someone how spent their life savings and radically changed they way they live because they felt they were wrong gender and explaining to them "Sorry, no matter how hard you try, I'll never see you as what you have for all intents and purposes are because chromosomal manipulation on that scale isn't possible." and see what kind of reactions you get. It's laughably ignorant and shows you have no real grasp on the subject.
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Post by DiBiase is Good on Aug 11, 2014 13:26:11 GMT -5
Ok, it's starting to get a bit too passionate in here. Obviously this topic is one that will always be a touchy subject and so far, it's been argued decently. But it's getting a bit heated now and I would encourage people to maybe take a deep breath before posting something that might be considered flaming.
Oh, how I miss the days when it was clearly defined by this....
Because you'd never see Arnie make a film when a man would be feminine and give birth.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Posts: 16,432
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 11, 2014 13:30:17 GMT -5
That was also my face when I saw your post. I think a male is what is genetically a male. I think a female is what is genetically a female. This is the basic XX/XY sex determination. It's not a matter of what a person thinks, or believes, or wants. It's science, straight-up. That said, I have no problem with a woman acting as masculine as she wants, or a man acting as feminine as he wants. What constitutes "male" and "female" gender are social/cultural constructs anyway. But genetics trumps culture--the chromosomal break is the system humans are bound to. And using the same pronoun ("him" or "her") for two entirely different things is beyond ass backwards. If we must label gender, though, there's got to be a better way than saying "he" or "she," because that rapidly becomes all sorts of confusing. There are actually many different combinations of chromosomes beyond XY and XX that express themselves in different ways, or perhaps only subtly. Unless you have definitive evidence of Maloney's chromonal structure, is there much need to tie yourself to this argument? And does it make any difference either way? Unless you're her doctor, why do you need to know the basics of her DNA?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 13:33:41 GMT -5
Louise Alphonse de Bourbon claims to be King of France. Would that mean he is therefore King of France, lest we offend is royal tastes?
But wait a minute, there's other guys who claim that same title. Does that make all of them King of France, too?
The answer to all of these would be no. They're royal pretenders. Any of them can CLAIM to be sovereign monarch of the French people, but until one of them gets crowned on a big blue throne and lives at Versailles, there's really no substance to those claims, no matter how strong the claims may be.
Or another example. I am not culturally Japanese. I was not born in Japan. I am not descended from anyone Japanese. If I claim to be Japanese, would that therefore mean that I am Japanese?The gender thing is just weird. I shouldn't have to alter reality to accommodate people because they may get offended. I don't think they should face ANY discrimination for who they are or what they do, but I also don't think they deserve special treatment. I fail to see why that's a bad thing. The bolded stuff has nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all, so IDK why you typed that out. Just simply call whomever what it is they want to be identify as for their gender or sex. It's that simple. What? Is it that hard for you or something? If that's not what you're talking about, then what you said isn't really pertinent to what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter to me what a person believes, it matters what is. A lot of people don't believe in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, but we don't abstain from teaching it because it might offend their sensibilities. There's hard evidence for it being real. Just like there's hard evidence for male/female sex determination. To me, that's why it trumps a person's stated gender. If they are sexually male, I'll always call them male. If they're sexually female, I'll always call them female. That's why I brought up the Third Gender stuff earlier. What do we call them? He? She? It? No, those are all wrong on the basis of gender. For simplicity's sake, calling them by their sex is the easiest thing. And I do the same for all people. No special treatment, good or bad, for anyone under the sun.
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Aug 11, 2014 13:34:36 GMT -5
Ok, it's starting to get a bit too passionate in here. Obviously this topic is one that will always be a touchy subject and so far, it's been argued decently. But it's getting a bit heated now and I would encourage people to maybe take a deep breath before posting something that might be considered flaming. Oh, how I miss the days when it was clearly defined by this.... Because you'd never see Arnie make a film when a man would be feminine and give birth. Technically, everyone starts off as a girl in the womb.
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