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Post by Adam Black on Aug 20, 2014 12:29:20 GMT -5
The only opinion I am bewildered with is apparently Tamina sucks I mean when you got like people like Eva Marie and Rosa walking around Tamina shouldn't even be at the bottom of the list of the people who suck.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 20, 2014 12:29:47 GMT -5
WWE should take heed of their own booking in the past. The greatest female rivalry in their history was Sensational Sherri vs Miss Elizabeth, and they rarely interacted physically So why was it good? Because of the personas and the story it told. One was the evil witch and the other was the sweet-natured princess They never fought over stupid stuff. Like Cameron and Naomi. Why exactly did they fall out? Erm.....oh yeah it was because of.....uh.....hmm. Story and characterisation is everything. Miss Elizabeth didn't even need mic time. She was able to convey her character via expressions and Disney eyes. I would say Trish/Lita was the best. Cam/Naomi had their falling out because Cameron kept developing a bigger head and they began showing tension a few weeks before. I don't think it needs a complex turn, especially when we had about three other diva storylines going on at that moment. That's the problem with WWE. They think random tension and one person suddenly developing an attitude is enough for a plot. It isnt. It only works if years have been spent first establishing the friendship. Then it's more shocking when it breaks down Example: The Rockers. WWE do not understand the concept of set up and pay off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:30:31 GMT -5
AJ and Paige get some praise due to their talent or at least their ability to hide their weaknesses. Or in the case of Paige, get a pass for being a terrible babyface because she's still young, but when she's given a second chance, she makes it work. Vince was right about Paige if those stories are correct. Now, she's a tremendous heel and her speaking ability has improved. Naomi kinda got screwed over with the Brodus Clay valet gimmick and she couldn't wrestle more. She's the old cliche of the puppy with big paws. If you say did a series with Natalya and were like, you guys wrestle every night, she'd be a lot better. In regards to the Bellas, some people aren't cut out for wrestling. And because they're so bad at acting, and so bad at wrestling, they can't fall back on anything to hide their negatives. AJ says herself she's not that great of a wrestler, but she has a great character and sells really well, that it hides her ring work, which is still decent, but she can hide any flaws because she's so talented in other ways. Naomi isn't the best wrestler either, but she's very athletic, so she can hide that. The Bellas are all negatives. How so? Nikki has improved tremendously in the ring and her segment this week was good for her first time with a mic in years. Brie is a more than solid wrestler. They're not all negatives by any means. For a person to be considered a "more than solid" wrestler, they need to have some matches under their belts that are loaded with "teh workratez." Current examples: Seth Rollins, Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Dean Ambrose, or Antonio Cesaro. Personal opinions aside, these guys are universally regarded on here as being good to excellent because they have proven time and again that they are capable of having memorable matches. Paige would be an example of a "more than solid" competitor. She's had matches in NXT that were acclaimed by fans and critics. Brie Bella has done very, very little. Her matches have been mediocre and she's never demonstrated any serious wrestling psychology or ring generalship. She's better than she was in 2008, but when it takes six years to be a passable wrestler, that person is, as Andrew put it, not cut out.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:31:02 GMT -5
Again, they had more to them than just a serious wrestler. Paige was actually the plucky underdog which was a role she wasn't very good at, at all IMO. How is Layla crazy? I think we all realize why AJ is still mentally unhinged and we haven't been given an explanation for Paige, but it's pretty easy to assume she played/plays these games to keep her title after AJ beat her for the belt. Of course they did, but that was still a character archetype central to both. Consummate professionals. Paige was clearly brought in to be that female type. She wasn't an unknown quantity. Her getting called up to the main roster was on the heels of stellar work in NXT where serious wrestling had been emphasized. Then she played the fluky underdog and now she's not. Like I said, I have no clue what they're actually going for with her. The way Paige has been booked has been simply terrible. Layla's matches are a running joke on here for the amount of groping and constantly taking advantage of the other women. Her "crazy" is akin to a sexual predator. And why would you expect that to continue to the main roster? WWE is far more about characters/storylines than wrestling. The booking of the first two months was bad, but since AJ returned things have gone much better. Far from terrible. Right so she doesn't have a crazy character? Ok thanks for the answer.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,218
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Post by Push R Truth on Aug 20, 2014 12:32:11 GMT -5
Steph has the best executed pedigree I've seen in a decade.
There's something positive.
Besides, I hate being negative towards the divas during Nattie's birthday year.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:32:28 GMT -5
I would say Trish/Lita was the best. Cam/Naomi had their falling out because Cameron kept developing a bigger head and they began showing tension a few weeks before. I don't think it needs a complex turn, especially when we had about three other diva storylines going on at that moment. That's the problem with WWE. They think random tension and one person suddenly developing an attitude is enough for a plot. It isnt. It only works if years have been spent first establishing the friendship. Then it's more shocking when it breaks down Example: The Rockers. WWE do not understand the concept of set up and pay off. I agree it could have been done better, but with everything else that was happening, I wasn't too annoyed.
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Post by lookout on Aug 20, 2014 12:32:46 GMT -5
For a long long time I have never understood why wwe books the divas the way they do. They leave all kinds of money on the table by going after models that could lose a match to a broom and booking them and the division so badly. There is a misconception in the wwe that women can't draw or no one cares about them. It's completely absurd since the wwe rarely gives the audience any reason to care about them. It's like those in authority blaming a jobber for losing too much..as if they completely forget they booked said jobber to lose. Just look at how popular and over rhonda rousey is. She isn't that popular because she is a super model, she is that popular because she kicks ass. If the wwe brought in women who could actually wrestle a match just as good as the men, and yes they are out there, book them without making them look like morons, and give them real story lines that make people care about their fued(s), they would end up having a division that is not only entertaining but profitable too boot. But instead, they throw women out there who have no business being in a ring and book them as entertainment for those not going to the bathroom. I really enjoy watching women who can really go in the ring. To me, when they do it right, they are more entertaining than the men in many cases because it's just so cool to see a woman kick ass and frankly I don't care how they look if they can wrestle a great match (although if they look good that's an obvious big bonus ) However, in the fantasy world of the powers at be in the wwe, it's all about looks and nothing else. I sometimes wonder if they literally do live in an alternate wwe universe. And I know I'm not alone in that category. So not only is it embarrassing and disappointing from a fan point of view, it is really a stupid thing to do from a business perspective.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:34:38 GMT -5
How so? Nikki has improved tremendously in the ring and her segment this week was good for her first time with a mic in years. Brie is a more than solid wrestler. They're not all negatives by any means. For a person to be considered a "more than solid" wrestler, they need to have some matches under their belts that are loaded with "teh workratez." Current examples: Seth Rollins, Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Dean Ambrose, or Antonio Cesaro. Personal opinions aside, these guys are universally regarded on here as being good to excellent because they have proven time and again that they are capable of having memorable matches. Paige would be an example of a "more than solid" competitor. She's had matches in NXT that were acclaimed by fans and critics. Brie Bella has done very, very little. Her matches have been mediocre and she's never demonstrated any serious wrestling psychology or ring generalship. She's better than she was in 2008, but when it takes six years to be a passable wrestler, that person is, as Andrew put it, not cut out. I will take that back and say solid, definitely not bad. All of those mentioned are great workers. She was actually solid way back in 2010 as well so I'm not sure why we are acting like she just became solid or anything?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:37:29 GMT -5
Of course they did, but that was still a character archetype central to both. Consummate professionals. Paige was clearly brought in to be that female type. She wasn't an unknown quantity. Her getting called up to the main roster was on the heels of stellar work in NXT where serious wrestling had been emphasized. Then she played the fluky underdog and now she's not. Like I said, I have no clue what they're actually going for with her. The way Paige has been booked has been simply terrible. Layla's matches are a running joke on here for the amount of groping and constantly taking advantage of the other women. Her "crazy" is akin to a sexual predator. And why would you expect that to continue to the main roster? WWE is far more about characters/storylines than wrestling. The booking of the first two months was bad, but since AJ returned things have gone much better. Far from terrible. Right so she doesn't have a crazy character? Ok thanks for the answer. The Wyatts? Emma? Adam Rose? Alexander Rusev (he went to being a Russian puppet after a few weeks, but he was still the Bulgarian Brute at first) too. Triple H's favored callups have played characters closely in line with what they played before getting called up. Paige's NXT character was a serious wrestler. The Anti-Diva thing was about defying the Total Divas-style of female wrestler and being something quite the opposite. Poised, tough, and technically proficient with a drive to succeed. Layla's touchy-feely thing definitely falls within the bounds of "crazy." There's no strategy to her doing it. She just...does it. For no particular reason.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:37:45 GMT -5
The only opinion I am bewildered with is apparently Tamina sucks I mean when you got like people like Eva Marie and Rosa walking around Tamina shouldn't even be at the bottom of the list of the people who suck. Tamina does suck though. Shes not the worst, but she's easily the most overrated woman on the roster, especially when people group her with Nattie, AJ, and Paige.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:40:24 GMT -5
And why would you expect that to continue to the main roster? WWE is far more about characters/storylines than wrestling. The booking of the first two months was bad, but since AJ returned things have gone much better. Far from terrible. Right so she doesn't have a crazy character? Ok thanks for the answer. The Wyatts? Emma? Adam Rose? Alexander Rusev (he went to being a Russian puppet after a few weeks, but he was still the Bulgarian Brute at first) too. Triple H's favored callups have play characters closely in line with what they played before getting called up. Paige's NXT character was a serious wrestler. The Anti-Diva thing was about defying the Total Divas-style of female wrestler and being something quite the opposite. Poised, tough, and technically proficient with a drive to succeed. Layla's touchy-feely thing definitely falls within the bounds of "crazy." There's no strategy to her doing it. She just...does it. For no particular reason. And that means Paige must remain with the same gimmick? Why? She is young and has so much ahead of her. Quite honestly she was getting a bit boring on NXT and needed a change of scenery and character. She can always revisit the antidiva in a few years. Yeah, sounds like someone is a little too into Layla matches. She's done that for a while, nothing to do with a crazy gimmick.
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oneday
Bubba Ho-Tep
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Post by oneday on Aug 20, 2014 12:42:28 GMT -5
Yes the divas do get too much hate. The fact that some people put the Bellas ring work on the same level as Eva/Rosa just shows people's dislike of them clouds their judgement. They can have good matches and they don't botch often. For the most part they're solid wrestlers who can be relied on to put on a decent match. I just don't see how people can just ignore the fact.
People also like to ignore the fact that a lot of the girls in the division get more of a reaction from the crowd then they have in awhile. People try to act like AJ is the only over diva when that is far from the truth. Nikki has been regularly getting pops from the crowd and while I've seen people try to act like the crowd would rather cheer for Stephanie, most of the time the crowd was right behind Brie. Just this Monday the crowd was red hot for the angle and at Summerslam they were right behind Brie when she was getting offense in. Not to mention that Emma,Natalya, and Naomi to name a few regularly get a good reaction from the crowd.
Nikki's promo has gotten a lot of love from people and I've seen plenty here that liked it too. Any time a Woman seems to be given a prominent role on Raw, all I see is a lot of "she can't speak and can't act" even though the male roster isn't much better in some aspects. I don't know if it's their voices or what, but it just seems whenever a girl gets to talk on the mic people are much more critical to them.
As for the Layla thing, it's not even a character trait. She, the person, just does it in the ring for whatever reason and people happen to notice it because they can jack off to it.
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,477
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Post by metylerca on Aug 20, 2014 12:44:36 GMT -5
Have you seen Eva Marie or Cameron matches? Divas get off easy most of the time.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:46:49 GMT -5
Have you seen Eva Marie or Cameron matches? Divas get off easy most of the time. Eva Marie has what a year of experience without getting to go down to NXT full time. Should her matches be any good?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 12:47:37 GMT -5
The Wyatts? Emma? Adam Rose? Alexander Rusev (he went to being a Russian puppet after a few weeks, but he was still the Bulgarian Brute at first) too. Triple H's favored callups have play characters closely in line with what they played before getting called up. Paige's NXT character was a serious wrestler. The Anti-Diva thing was about defying the Total Divas-style of female wrestler and being something quite the opposite. Poised, tough, and technically proficient with a drive to succeed. Layla's touchy-feely thing definitely falls within the bounds of "crazy." There's no strategy to her doing it. She just...does it. For no particular reason. And that means Paige must remain with the same gimmick? Why? She is young and has so much ahead of her. Quite honestly she was getting a bit boring on NXT and needed a change of scenery and character. She can always revisit the antidiva in a few years. Yeah, sounds like someone is a little too into Layla matches. She's done that for a while, nothing to do with a crazy gimmick. It doesn't mean Paige must have the same exact gimmick. But you asked me why I thought she should, and pointed to NXT callups having characters that stay faithful to what worked in NXT (whether not they're booked effectively would be another matter altogether; fact is that there is some consistency to their development). Paige was called up to the main roster and treated not as some unknown entity that nobody knew about. It wasn't supposed to be out of left-field like Shield showing up and laying waste to everything that stood in front of them. She showed up during an AJ promo and the commentators were quick to point out that it was Paige "from NXT," AKA the Anti-Diva, the serious wrestler who had serious matches. Why the sudden change? Because WWE has no idea what they're doing with her. You don't find anything odd or unstable about a person who sexually molests other people just for the hell of it? It's not like Goldust, who intentionally trolled people he wrestled against. That was all about throwing people off their game. Layla is just some demented sex fiend.
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Post by Pillman's Pencil on Aug 20, 2014 12:50:43 GMT -5
The Wyatts? Emma? Adam Rose? Alexander Rusev (he went to being a Russian puppet after a few weeks, but he was still the Bulgarian Brute at first) too. Triple H's favored callups have play characters closely in line with what they played before getting called up. Paige's NXT character was a serious wrestler. The Anti-Diva thing was about defying the Total Divas-style of female wrestler and being something quite the opposite. Poised, tough, and technically proficient with a drive to succeed. Layla's touchy-feely thing definitely falls within the bounds of "crazy." There's no strategy to her doing it. She just...does it. For no particular reason. And that means Paige must remain with the same gimmick? Why? She is young and has so much ahead of her. Quite honestly she was getting a bit boring on NXT and needed a change of scenery and character. She can always revisit the antidiva in a few years. Yeah, sounds like someone is a little too into Layla matches. She's done that for a while, nothing to do with a crazy gimmick. This, I am liking this erotic/bicurious sociopath side of Paige, more interesting than the Anti Diva you could say and it really adds depth to her heel character. In the likely event she starts getting pops like a babyface like on the night she first won the title or whenever in the UK for Raw on a regular basis then she becomes the Anti-Diva, because the Anti Diva is a babyface character more than a heel character.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Aug 20, 2014 12:50:50 GMT -5
That's YOUR opinion. I don't care about the Bellas or the others. Well I mean obviously it is my opinion.... you don't have to care for them to at least acknowledge they can wrestle well. Why acknowledge something that isn't true?
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:51:55 GMT -5
And that means Paige must remain with the same gimmick? Why? She is young and has so much ahead of her. Quite honestly she was getting a bit boring on NXT and needed a change of scenery and character. She can always revisit the antidiva in a few years. Yeah, sounds like someone is a little too into Layla matches. She's done that for a while, nothing to do with a crazy gimmick. It doesn't mean Paige must have the same exact gimmick. But you asked me why I thought she should, and pointed to NXT callups having characters that stay faithful to what worked in NXT (whether not they're booked effectively would be another matter altogether; fact is that there is some consistency to their development). Paige was called up to the main roster and treated not as some unknown entity that nobody knew about. It wasn't supposed to be out of left-field like Shield showing up and laying waste to everything that stood in front of them. She showed up during an AJ promo and the commentators were quick to point out that it was Paige "from NXT," AKA the Anti-Diva, the serious wrestler who had serious matches. Why the sudden change? Because WWE has no idea what they're doing with her. You don't find anything odd or unstable about a person who sexually molests other people just for the hell of it? It's not like Goldust, who intentionally trolled people he wrestled against. That was all about throwing people off their game. Layla is just some demented sex fiend. Yeah, I'm sure Triple H's pet project would be brought up with no sense of booking behind it. She debuted as the plucky underdog and after she lost her title, she slowly started to turn a bit cuckoo. After BG, she went totally bonkers and thus we have her new chracter. Isnt very complicated to me. LMFAO all I have to say on your post on Lay.
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 12:52:43 GMT -5
Well I mean obviously it is my opinion.... you don't have to care for them to at least acknowledge they can wrestle well. Why acknowledge something that isn't true? Guess you haven't watched any Nikki Bella matches this yesr. That's very unfortunate.
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,477
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Post by metylerca on Aug 20, 2014 13:01:02 GMT -5
Have you seen Eva Marie or Cameron matches? Divas get off easy most of the time. Eva Marie has what a year of experience without getting to go down to NXT full time. Should her matches be any good? Should any of her matches be on television then?
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