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Post by Surfer Sandman on Aug 20, 2014 13:01:30 GMT -5
Why acknowledge something that isn't true? Guess you haven't watched any Nikki Bella matches this yesr. That's very unfortunate. Give me two reasons to care about Nikki Bella, other than the fact that she's dating Jern and for some stupid reason, she hates her sister. Two GOOD reasons.
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oneday
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 642
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Post by oneday on Aug 20, 2014 13:03:36 GMT -5
As for someone who isn't a big fan of Paige, I find her much more enjoyable to watch with her current character then the "anti-diva". I found her to be pretty boring as the anti diva and honestly character wise didn't have much to show for it. I think she plays her current role pretty well and can be very entertaining. For example I really liked the comments she made after she pushed AJ off the ramp and also at Summerslam when she hugged a knocked out AJ.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:03:56 GMT -5
Guess you haven't watched any Nikki Bella matches this yesr. That's very unfortunate. Give me two reasons to care about Nikki Bella, other than the fact that she's dating Jern and for some stupid reason, she hates her sister. Two GOOD reasons. Good wrestler and had a good segment with Steph and Brie on RAW. That was easy
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 20, 2014 13:06:12 GMT -5
I never understood Paige as the "anti-diva" anyway. Other than sticking with her natural skin tone, unlike 99% of them, she seems as vapid and narcissistic as the rest of them.
Good wrestler and improving as a talker and character in general, though
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:07:25 GMT -5
It doesn't mean Paige must have the same exact gimmick. But you asked me why I thought she should, and pointed to NXT callups having characters that stay faithful to what worked in NXT (whether not they're booked effectively would be another matter altogether; fact is that there is some consistency to their development). Paige was called up to the main roster and treated not as some unknown entity that nobody knew about. It wasn't supposed to be out of left-field like Shield showing up and laying waste to everything that stood in front of them. She showed up during an AJ promo and the commentators were quick to point out that it was Paige "from NXT," AKA the Anti-Diva, the serious wrestler who had serious matches. Why the sudden change? Because WWE has no idea what they're doing with her. You don't find anything odd or unstable about a person who sexually molests other people just for the hell of it? It's not like Goldust, who intentionally trolled people he wrestled against. That was all about throwing people off their game. Layla is just some demented sex fiend. Yeah, I'm sure Triple H's pet project would be brought up with no sense of booking behind it. She debuted as the plucky underdog and after she lost her title, she slowly started to turn a bit cuckoo. After BG, she went totally bonkers and thus we have her new chracter. Isnt very complicated to me. LMFAO all I have to say on your post on Lay. That's almost exactly how the Wyatts have worked out, and they're another Triple H special. They've lost tons of momentum from earlier this year because, you guessed it, nobody seems to know how to book them. Bray makes speeches that he's evil...or that he's a savior, varying from week to week. Loses again and again to Cena. His Family loses again and again to the Usos. To what end? None. That is to say, it's not a problem unique to divas, but Paige definitely suffers from it. Paige comes in as serious wrestler, becomes underdog, gets flat crowd reactions, and now suddenly she's touching people up and acting crazy when there was no prior indication thereof? Very uneven, very bad booking. As an example that shows the positive ends of the spectrum, Mickie James as crazy was great because there was something inherently unsettling about her relationship with Trish. She was fangirling in the worst way possible and it became evident over a slow build that try as she might to act normal, she wasn't. It materialized over months of awkward and unsettling behavior. That was a female storyline done right. Paige's turn of insanity was abrupt and unbelievable. She's booked in continuity with her character from NXT. Or at least, she was when she debuted. There really was no precedent for it. Out of curiosity, what do you describe "crazy" as? Is it just supposed to be schizophrenic people, or...? WWE brands people crazy based upon outlandishly violent or sexual-related behavior (man in love with a mop, Germanic guy who dry humps people and reads them poetry, etc.). Layla fits into the latter group.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Aug 20, 2014 13:07:44 GMT -5
I only have beef with the they untalented ones.
- Brie/Nikki - Cameron - uhhhhh.....I got nothing - Eva - she'd be decent with Miz - rosa - I liked her with Primo/epico/Ryder
Keep them out of the ring, Make them valets or something.
I'd say ONLY have them in the ring for quick squashes for the talented ones (Paige, A.J, Nattie).
If they do improve and become good in ring workers then by all means mauve them to the upper diva roster.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:14:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm sure Triple H's pet project would be brought up with no sense of booking behind it. She debuted as the plucky underdog and after she lost her title, she slowly started to turn a bit cuckoo. After BG, she went totally bonkers and thus we have her new chracter. Isnt very complicated to me. LMFAO all I have to say on your post on Lay. That's almost exactly how the Wyatts have worked out, and they're another Triple H special. They've lost tons of momentum from earlier this year because, you guessed it, nobody seems to know how to book them. Bray makes speeches that he's evil...or that he's a savior, varying from week to week. Loses again and again to Cena. His Family loses again and again to the Usos. To what end? None. That is to say, it's not a problem unique to divas, but Paige definitely suffers from it. Paige comes in as serious wrestler, becomes underdog, gets flat crowd reactions, and now suddenly she's touching people up and acting crazy when there was no prior indication thereof? Very uneven, very bad booking. As an example that shows the positive ends of the spectrum, Mickie James as crazy was great because there was something inherently unsettling about her relationship with Trish. She was fangirling in the worst way possible and it became evident over a slow build that try as she might to act normal, she wasn't. It materialized over months of awkward and unsettling behavior. That was a female storyline done right. Paige's turn of insanity was abrupt and unbelievable. She's booked in continuity with her character from NXT. Or at least, she was when she debuted. There really was no precedent for it. Out of curiosity, what do you describe "crazy" as? Is it just supposed to be schizophrenic people, or...? WWE brands people crazy based upon outlandishly violent or sexual-related behavior (man in love with a mop, Germanic guy who dry humps people and reads them poetry, etc.). Layla fits into the latter group. I'll just agree to disagree on Paige, but lmao no. That is you paying way too much attention to her matches, commentary has never picked up on it and Lay probably doesn't even notice. I suggest porn for a better alternative to jerk off to though. Have fun!
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:15:54 GMT -5
I only have beef with the they untalented ones. - Brie/Nikki - Cameron - uhhhhh.....I got nothing - Eva - she'd be decent with Miz - rosa - I liked her with Primo/epico/Ryder Keep them out of the ring, Make them valets or something. I'd say ONLY have them in the ring for quick squashes for the talented ones (Paige, A.J, Nattie). If they do improve and become good in ring workers then by all means mauve them to the upper diva roster. I would at least say Cameron has a nice character and disageee on the Bellas, but at least its not the whole roster you think sucks.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:16:05 GMT -5
About 95% of diva matches suck out loud, that's why they get a lot of hate.
Does it really take years of experience before one can master the complicated art of the rollup? What's the over/under on the number of practice sessions it should take before you can do that properly?
I hope most of the girls don't have driver's licenses yet. At the rate they learn how to do simple moves, I'd estimate they'll need to spend age 16-23 just mastering how to shift from park to drive. Lets not even get into the turn signals, they'd be middle aged by then.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Aug 20, 2014 13:16:45 GMT -5
Give me two reasons to care about Nikki Bella, other than the fact that she's dating Jern and for some stupid reason, she hates her sister. Two GOOD reasons. Good wrestler and had a good segment with Steph and Brie on RAW. That was easy Again, that's purely YOUR opinion and has no basis in fact. I'm inclined to believe that you're here solely to troll others that don't agree 100% with your opinion.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:17:46 GMT -5
About 95% of diva matches suck out loud, that's why they get a lot of hate. Does it really take years of experience before one can master the complicated art of the rollup? What's the over/under on the number of practice sessions it should take before you can do that properly? I hope most of the girls don't have driver's licenses yet. At the rate they learn how to do simple moves, I'd estimate they'll need to spend age 16-23 just mastering how to shift from park to drive. Lets not even get into the turn signals, they'd be middle aged by then. Such as? Diva matches lately have been far better imo.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:20:10 GMT -5
Good wrestler and had a good segment with Steph and Brie on RAW. That was easy Again, that's purely YOUR opinion and has no basis in fact. I'm inclined to believe that you're here solely to troll others that don't agree 100% with your opinion. No I'm here, because it's stupid how much shit the girls get and unreservedly, too. You've said that its my opinion which is obvious. You can try to debate/argue it, but you don't.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,480
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 20, 2014 13:22:16 GMT -5
Ugh not the indy argument, as far as I'm aware the likes of Emma, Summer, Fox, Sasha Banks and Charlotte never had much on an indy reputation and only the last one has any major wrestling family ties (I may be wrong on a few though) but regularly get praise for their in-ring work.
The likes of Rosa and Cameron get criticised for not being very good. Eva is even worse and isn't even good enough to wrestle regularly on NXT, Alexa Bliss is used sparingly while she learns and even she is both better and gets more praise. That may be OK if their work outside of the ring is good enough but that doesn't apply to anybody but Layla and even she's passable in the ring.
I think NXT (and even the recent AJ/Paige feud) have proven that many fans do like divas when they're talented enough and are presented well, I think many peoples MotY lists will feature a womens match (depending on what happens the rest of year of course).
That said they do get some unfair criticism but who doesn't? They're also sometimes held to stupidly high standards.
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suave
Dennis Stamp
"I only got on my knees for God and maybe to lick a girl's pussy" -Teddy Hart
Posts: 4,207
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Post by suave on Aug 20, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -5
Long answer: Because Moolah was a shitty wrestler, trained/pimped a lot of girls, made nice with Vince Sr., and sent them to the WWWF. They kinda sucked because they wrestled her same style, and this progressed up till now, where they wrestle, in a lot of ways, the same style. So, Moolah laid the foundation for divas to suck, and it's just sad to me when they do videos on her and the divas all talk about how great she was.
Short answer:The WWE doesn't give a shit about them, they're for the most part worthless T&A with no real longevity or character depth. It's always been "the piss break", and there's rarely any actual storyline. It's improving recently with total divas, I must say.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Aug 20, 2014 13:22:47 GMT -5
It's like midget wrestling. Saying you think midget wrestling is horrible doesn't mean you have something against midgets, you just find midget wrestling awful. WWE presented/American women's wrestling is usually horrific and filled with more botches than Maffew could cope with. The problem is 80% of Divas on the WWE roster got into wrestling through means other than wanting to be a wrestler. What was that Heenan quote on Warrior about having a can of tuna and seeing a wrestling truck go by? I think for a lot of Diva's it's a similar story: "I look good in a swimsuit, I can be a wrestler!"
The Diva's division today has origins in the mid to late 90s where women were picked specifically based on how big their tits are. There isn't some great noble tradition here to be offended people denigrate. And there's no ugly female wrestlers. Where's the Bray Wyatt or Brock Lesnar of ladies wrestlers? This is one of many reasons I can't take it seriously. When the criteria seems to be "Do I want her to give me a sponge bath?" I reserve the right to criticise and/or not take terribly seriously.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:27:51 GMT -5
Ugh not the indy argument, as far as I'm aware the likes of Emma, Summer, Fox, Sasha Banks and Charlotte never had much on an indy reputation and only the last one has any major wrestling family ties (I may be wrong on a few though) but regularly get praise for their in-ring work. The likes of Rosa and Cameron get criticised for not being very good. Eva is even worse and isn't even good enough to wrestle regularly on NXT, Alexa Bliss is used sparingly while she learns and even she is both better and gets more praise. That may be OK if their work outside of the ring is good enough but that doesn't apply to anybody but Layla and even she's passable in the ring. I think NXT (and even the recent AJ/Paige feud) have proven that many fans do like divas when they're talented enough and are presented well, I think many peoples MotY lists will feature a womens match (depending on what happens the rest of year of course). That said they do get some unfair criticism but who doesn't? They're also sometimes held to stupidly high standards. I believe Emma and Sasha both were relatively known indy names or at least Emmawas with her SSHIMMER shows.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 13:29:49 GMT -5
It feels like some of you are talking about the 2011 era. These days we have multiple feuds, the last few PPVs have had multiple women matches, diva merch is selling and very well, hell AJ and Paige can fill their own store with their merch; the Bellas will likely follow suit. The division hasn't been doing this well in years.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,273
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 20, 2014 13:30:49 GMT -5
I've never watched an indy women's wrestling match.
I still think the diva's division is mostly garbage.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Aug 20, 2014 13:34:47 GMT -5
Yes the divas do get too much hate. The fact that some people put the Bellas ring work on the same level as Eva/Rosa just shows people's dislike of them clouds their judgement. They can have good matches and they don't botch often. For the most part they're solid wrestlers who can be relied on to put on a decent match. I just don't see how people can just ignore the fact. I hate this line of reasoning here. Just because they're not as bad as Rosa Mendes doesn't make them talented. And when I compare wrestlers, like, just because they're women doesn't get them a free pass, because there are talented female wrestlers out there. It's a sad contrast too. The night where Raw went head to head with Impact, I think around the same time they had Maryse vs Nikki Bella just have this atrocious match, and on Impact, Kong and Hamada took on Sarita and Taylor Wilde and those women had the second best match of the night under Styles vs Angle. They actually worked too hard, Hamada included where she injured herself and still kept going. And that's why the Divas get so much hate. If they're on the main roster, on television, then they should be at least competent. Hell, last year Erick Rowan was viewed as the worst wrestler on the roster outside of Great Khali, and he's improved by leaps and bounds. But even he wasn't as bad as some of the worst women. And it's not all their fault. It's management. They book the 30 second women's matches. They throw out Eva Marie to shit the bed because she has no experience. I've always felt that the reason THAT Jackie Gayda match is one of the worst in WWE history isn't because it really was the worst technically. There have been numerous far worse. But what it did was, it became ok to throw out inexperienced people and have them shit the bed, women especially. So going back to Erick Rowan, he was able to wrestle people so much better then him, and he improved. So I think one reason the Bellas were and are so terrible and have been for so long is they don't get the chance to wrestle people better then them. That's why hiring random models is flawed. Sara Del Rey is incredible, but she's not a miracle worker in training. So the Bellas, who like, I don't get where this line of them being solid workers comes in. What standard are they being judged on? Because I judge them on a standard of good women's wrestling, because I saw good women's wrestling before. It actually exists. I think one reason Natalya is on NXT so much is simply so people can work with someone who actually is competent. Someone who worked the indies, worked with people better then her. So you have Charlotte, who is very athletic, and she wrestles Natalya and because she's good enough to be carried, she has an amazing match. What they should do is marry Charlotte and Natalya as the old wrestler expression goes, and they should wrestle every night. So then, you have Charlotte potentially improving to the point where she can be the one carrying people. But you have to hire people who can be carried. They don't botch everything, well, I'd rather watch a match where two guys f*** up, but they don't have a dear in the headlights look when they do, but are still competent to put on a good match. And I feel the reason people defend the Bella Twins, and people of that ilk, is they haven't really seen many good wrestling matches with women.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:38:27 GMT -5
That's almost exactly how the Wyatts have worked out, and they're another Triple H special. They've lost tons of momentum from earlier this year because, you guessed it, nobody seems to know how to book them. Bray makes speeches that he's evil...or that he's a savior, varying from week to week. Loses again and again to Cena. His Family loses again and again to the Usos. To what end? None. That is to say, it's not a problem unique to divas, but Paige definitely suffers from it. Paige comes in as serious wrestler, becomes underdog, gets flat crowd reactions, and now suddenly she's touching people up and acting crazy when there was no prior indication thereof? Very uneven, very bad booking. As an example that shows the positive ends of the spectrum, Mickie James as crazy was great because there was something inherently unsettling about her relationship with Trish. She was fangirling in the worst way possible and it became evident over a slow build that try as she might to act normal, she wasn't. It materialized over months of awkward and unsettling behavior. That was a female storyline done right. Paige's turn of insanity was abrupt and unbelievable. She's booked in continuity with her character from NXT. Or at least, she was when she debuted. There really was no precedent for it. Out of curiosity, what do you describe "crazy" as? Is it just supposed to be schizophrenic people, or...? WWE brands people crazy based upon outlandishly violent or sexual-related behavior (man in love with a mop, Germanic guy who dry humps people and reads them poetry, etc.). Layla fits into the latter group. I'll just agree to disagree on Paige, but lmao no. That is you paying way too much attention to her matches, commentary has never picked up on it and Lay probably doesn't even notice. I suggest porn for a better alternative to jerk off to though. Have fun! Commentary doesn't pick up on it but most people on this board have. I wasn't the first person to notice it. Actually, I thought other people were looking into it too much but after watching some of her more recent matches...yeah, it's definitely intentional. Every match she's in, she cops a feel. That's no accident and the cameras are on her all the time. It's not easy to miss. I don't really know what you're trying to argue against. I came into this thread saying that I specifically don't want that kind of stuff in my wrestling. Why do you think that therefore, it's something that I am interested in?
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