Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:52:41 GMT -5
Yes the divas do get too much hate. The fact that some people put the Bellas ring work on the same level as Eva/Rosa just shows people's dislike of them clouds their judgement. They can have good matches and they don't botch often. For the most part they're solid wrestlers who can be relied on to put on a decent match. I just don't see how people can just ignore the fact. I hate this line of reasoning here. Just because they're not as bad as Rosa Mendes doesn't make them talented. And when I compare wrestlers, like, just because they're women doesn't get them a free pass, because there are talented female wrestlers out there. It's a sad contrast too. The night where Raw went head to head with Impact, I think around the same time they had Maryse vs Nikki Bella just have this atrocious match, and on Impact, Kong and Hamada took on Sarita and Taylor Wilde and those women had the second best match of the night under Styles vs Angle. They actually worked too hard, Hamada included where she injured herself and still kept going. And that's why the Divas get so much hate. If they're on the main roster, on television, then they should be at least competent. Hell, last year Erick Rowan was viewed as the worst wrestler on the roster outside of Great Khali, and he's improved by leaps and bounds. But even he wasn't as bad as some of the worst women. And it's not all their fault. It's management. They book the 30 second women's matches. They throw out Eva Marie to shit the bed because she has no experience. I've always felt that the reason THAT Jackie Gayda match is one of the worst in WWE history isn't because it really was the worst technically. There have been numerous far worse. But what it did was, it became ok to throw out inexperienced people and have them shit the bed, women especially. So going back to Erick Rowan, he was able to wrestle people so much better then him, and he improved. So I think one reason the Bellas were and are so terrible and have been for so long is they don't get the chance to wrestle people better then them. That's why hiring random models is flawed. Sara Del Rey is incredible, but she's not a miracle worker in training. So the Bellas, who like, I don't get where this line of them being solid workers comes in. What standard are they being judged on? Because I judge them on a standard of good women's wrestling, because I saw good women's wrestling before. It actually exists. I think one reason Natalya is on NXT so much is simply so people can work with someone who actually is competent. Someone who worked the indies, worked with people better then her. So you have Charlotte, who is very athletic, and she wrestles Natalya and because she's good enough to be carried, she has an amazing match. What they should do is marry Charlotte and Natalya as the old wrestler expression goes, and they should wrestle every night. So then, you have Charlotte potentially improving to the point where she can be the one carrying people. But you have to hire people who can be carried. They don't botch everything, well, I'd rather watch a match where two guys f*** up, but they don't have a dear in the headlights look when they do, but are still competent to put on a good match. And I feel the reason people defend the Bella Twins, and people of that ilk, is they haven't really seen many good wrestling matches with women. When I think of a solid, median (not average) female wrestler, I think the best example would be Trish Stratus. She wasn't stellar but had a wide moveset and some technical proficiency. She botched sometimes, but could recover from it. She had some legitimate, good matches with other people. Not amazing matches, not great matches. But some of them were good. I think if anyone isn't as complete a wrestler as Trish, they're not solid. If they are (many, many women WWE has employed have been better than Trish) then they can be considered at least good to great. That doesn't mean they have to be as good in the ring as Manami Toyota or Awesome Kong, but there's quite a few women in WWE's history who had very good PPV matches that got good reviews at the time. IMO, the Bellas have never been as better than Trish was, or even as good--and that's why they can't really be considered good in-ring performers.
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oneday
Bubba Ho-Tep
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Post by oneday on Aug 20, 2014 13:56:24 GMT -5
Ugh not the indy argument, as far as I'm aware the likes of Emma, Summer, Fox, Sasha Banks and Charlotte never had much on an indy reputation and only the last one has any major wrestling family ties (I may be wrong on a few though) but regularly get praise for their in-ring work. The likes of Rosa and Cameron get criticised for not being very good. Eva is even worse and isn't even good enough to wrestle regularly on NXT, Alexa Bliss is used sparingly while she learns and even she is both better and gets more praise. That may be OK if their work outside of the ring is good enough but that doesn't apply to anybody but Layla and even she's passable in the ring. I think NXT (and even the recent AJ/Paige feud) have proven that many fans do like divas when they're talented enough and are presented well, I think many peoples MotY lists will feature a womens match (depending on what happens the rest of year of course). That said they do get some unfair criticism but who doesn't? They're also sometimes held to stupidly high standards. Alicia used to be very criticized here though. I recall a lot of talk by people afraid she's going to kill people with her finisher and a lot of people used to rate her bad in the ring because of previous botches like the one on Beth Phoenix. If Summer/Charlotte get a major push in the division I bet people will start to crap on their ring work just like any time somebody gets a push. Not saying they don't deserve any criticism, but they'll certainly be a lot more then now where they're being praised. @ Andrew I'm not saying the Bellas are talented because they're better then Rosa, I'm saying the Bellas are too talented to be compared to Rosa because that's just blatantly false. I admit I don't watch indy wrestling, but I did watch TNA when the knockouts division was at its highest and I did watch the Natalya vs Charlotte. The knockouts have a lot of good matches and Natalya vs Charlotte was great too, but that doesn't take away from the fact that I think the Bella Twins are decent wrestlers. They've had plenty of good matches on Superstars/Main Event where they have been given time and have impressed me in the ring. @art It's the fact that Layla's groping has nothing to do with her character. She herself probably just does it to be funny. Fandango was all over Adam Rose, but I don't think we're going to start calling him crazy now are we? No, because his character is that of a dancer, like Layla's is right now a scorned ex-girlfriend (and before that a dancer/generic face diva) oops i completely botched this post when it comes to the quotes
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 20, 2014 14:03:57 GMT -5
In terms of acting, they're all pretty bad. They do get too much general hate, but it's hard to say the barbs thrown at their acting skills isn't justified, because by and large, they aren't good. AJ is far and away the best, and she's just adequate. Not at all actually. AJ, Paige, Alicia, Summer, Layla, and Cameron can all act fairly well. Nikki had her first promo this week and did well. AJ is probably one of rhe best mic workers in WWE. That's not true on any level objectively and you know it. But there's no point in discussing the topic with ya further, as it's pretty clear we're about two steps from: "Nuh uh" "Yeah Huh" territory. So I'll bow out.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 14:09:14 GMT -5
I'll just agree to disagree on Paige, but lmao no. That is you paying way too much attention to her matches, commentary has never picked up on it and Lay probably doesn't even notice. I suggest porn for a better alternative to jerk off to though. Have fun! Commentary doesn't pick up on it but most people on this board have. I wasn't the first person to notice it. Actually, I thought other people were looking into it too much but after watching some of her more recent matches...yeah, it's definitely intentional. Every match she's in, she cops a feel. That's no accident and the cameras are on her all the time. It's not easy to miss. I don't really know what you're trying to argue against. I came into this thread saying that I specifically don't want that kind of stuff in my wrestling. Why do you think that therefore, it's something that I am interested in? Yeah she's clearly insane. I can't believe this is an actual discussion...
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 14:10:47 GMT -5
Not at all actually. AJ, Paige, Alicia, Summer, Layla, and Cameron can all act fairly well. Nikki had her first promo this week and did well. AJ is probably one of rhe best mic workers in WWE. That's not true on any level objectively and you know it. But there's no point in discussing the topic with ya further, as it's pretty clear we're about two steps from: "Nuh uh" "Yeah Huh" territory. So I'll bow out. I know it? If so why would I be arguing it on here?
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1295
Mike the Goon
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 14:14:49 GMT -5
Yes the divas do get too much hate. The fact that some people put the Bellas ring work on the same level as Eva/Rosa just shows people's dislike of them clouds their judgement. They can have good matches and they don't botch often. For the most part they're solid wrestlers who can be relied on to put on a decent match. I just don't see how people can just ignore the fact. I hate this line of reasoning here. Just because they're not as bad as Rosa Mendes doesn't make them talented. And when I compare wrestlers, like, just because they're women doesn't get them a free pass, because there are talented female wrestlers out there. It's a sad contrast too. The night where Raw went head to head with Impact, I think around the same time they had Maryse vs Nikki Bella just have this atrocious match, and on Impact, Kong and Hamada took on Sarita and Taylor Wilde and those women had the second best match of the night under Styles vs Angle. They actually worked too hard, Hamada included where she injured herself and still kept going. And that's why the Divas get so much hate. If they're on the main roster, on television, then they should be at least competent. Hell, last year Erick Rowan was viewed as the worst wrestler on the roster outside of Great Khali, and he's improved by leaps and bounds. But even he wasn't as bad as some of the worst women. And it's not all their fault. It's management. They book the 30 second women's matches. They throw out Eva Marie to shit the bed because she has no experience. I've always felt that the reason THAT Jackie Gayda match is one of the worst in WWE history isn't because it really was the worst technically. There have been numerous far worse. But what it did was, it became ok to throw out inexperienced people and have them shit the bed, women especially. So going back to Erick Rowan, he was able to wrestle people so much better then him, and he improved. So I think one reason the Bellas were and are so terrible and have been for so long is they don't get the chance to wrestle people better then them. That's why hiring random models is flawed. Sara Del Rey is incredible, but she's not a miracle worker in training. So the Bellas, who like, I don't get where this line of them being solid workers comes in. What standard are they being judged on? Because I judge them on a standard of good women's wrestling, because I saw good women's wrestling before. It actually exists. I think one reason Natalya is on NXT so much is simply so people can work with someone who actually is competent. Someone who worked the indies, worked with people better then her. So you have Charlotte, who is very athletic, and she wrestles Natalya and because she's good enough to be carried, she has an amazing match. What they should do is marry Charlotte and Natalya as the old wrestler expression goes, and they should wrestle every night. So then, you have Charlotte potentially improving to the point where she can be the one carrying people. But you have to hire people who can be carried. They don't botch everything, well, I'd rather watch a match where two guys f*** up, but they don't have a dear in the headlights look when they do, but are still competent to put on a good match. And I feel the reason people defend the Bella Twins, and people of that ilk, is they haven't really seen many good wrestling matches with women. Wow you completely misquoted him. He stated the fact that people even compare rhe Bellas to Eva just says it all. Where did he say "they're better than eva/rosa so clearly they're great!!!!!". Ever since returning to wrestling full time, Nikki Bella has shown so much improvement in her moveset and versatility, she hasn't really gotten a big match to showcase it yet, but I'm sure we will get that fairly soon.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,508
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 20, 2014 14:23:54 GMT -5
Ugh not the indy argument, as far as I'm aware the likes of Emma, Summer, Fox, Sasha Banks and Charlotte never had much on an indy reputation and only the last one has any major wrestling family ties (I may be wrong on a few though) but regularly get praise for their in-ring work. Alicia used to be very criticized here though. I recall a lot of talk by people afraid she's going to kill people with her finisher and a lot of people used to rate her bad in the ring because of previous botches like the one on Beth Phoenix. If Summer/Charlotte get a major push in the division I bet people will start to crap on their ring work just like any time somebody gets a push. Not saying they don't deserve any criticism, but they'll certainly be a lot more then now where they're being praised. Well she was pretty bad for a long time even if her being criticised for being "dangerous" was unfair. Which brings up a good point, she was lumped in with the worst divas long after she had improved and much the same could be said about other divas down the years. I think that's an unfortunate side-effect of WWE historically putting them on TV in an in-ring role before they were ready. First/early impressions count and bad ones can hang over any wrestler for a long time, sadly a lot of divas ones are bad either because they're not ready to be in the ring in the first place or due to situations like Emma where they suffer from abysmal booking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 14:32:35 GMT -5
Above all other things with the divas, I have one request: Can they stop with the in-ring ho-yay? I want to see them WRESTLE, not awkwardly crawl over one another. Don't know whose call that is, or why it's being done. But the crowds aren't even into it, it's so gratuitous. Paige is obviously absorbing AJ Lee's psychosexual dominance, the same psychosexual dominance that drove Daniel Bryan into anger management and banished Kaitlyn from WWE. It's a storyline, dammit! But seriously, it's kinda hot, but not enough to justify because it cheapens the status of female wrestling as a whole in WWE. Does more harm than good.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 20, 2014 14:34:43 GMT -5
Really? Based on the Divas' thread, a few people on here are too comfortable sharing their love for the divas and all the disgusting ways they would show that love.
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JoDaNa1281
Crow T. Robot
Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender. #BLM
Posts: 40,129
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Aug 20, 2014 14:42:01 GMT -5
Ok so I have been lurking for a while and can I just say how a majority here don't give the divas even half the credit they deserve if they're not indy girls (because ya know they don't have any passion). Brie isn't the best actress, but she isn't nearly as bad as she's made out to be, Nikki is great, as is Alicia, Cameron and Naomi are polar opposites with one having a great character and the other a great wrestler. Summer and Layla are great as well. I love AJ and Paige, but damn it seems like they're the only ones who get any sort of praise. That's not true at all. Naomi, Nattie, Alicia, Layla & Summer all get praise on here.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 14:51:18 GMT -5
Ok so I have been lurking for a while and can I just say how a majority here don't give the divas even half the credit they deserve if they're not indy girls (because ya know they don't have any passion). Brie isn't the best actress, but she isn't nearly as bad as she's made out to be, Nikki is great, as is Alicia, Cameron and Naomi are polar opposites with one having a great character and the other a great wrestler. Summer and Layla are great as well. I love AJ and Paige, but damn it seems like they're the only ones who get any sort of praise. That's not true at all. Naomi, Nattie, Alicia, Layla & Summer all get praise on here. My bad for that then, checked this forum out the last few week or so and that was it how it seemed to me.
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Dshuks
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 520
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Post by Dshuks on Aug 20, 2014 15:15:20 GMT -5
I think the IWC's ( in general not everyone) knowledge about the divas and women's wrestling in general is very limited and outdated .
Just a couple months ago you had people praising Alicia for "improving" , when the fact is she's been good for years now and actually is not performing at the same level she was a couple of years ago when she had very good matches with Gail, Natalya, and Melina on superstars.
There's also the people who who lump Tamina in with the best workers of the division which is laughable The Bella's are also nowhere near a shad as people make the out to be.
This extends to the indy scene as well when people say who they feel the best women's wrestlers on the indy scene are you frequently get names like Mschif or Melissa. When it's clear that talents like Athena, Mia Yim , Ivelisse, and Candice Larae are better nowadays as Melissa and Mschif are on the downsides of their career (especially Mschif).
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Post by Andrew is Good on Aug 20, 2014 16:54:44 GMT -5
I hate this line of reasoning here. Just because they're not as bad as Rosa Mendes doesn't make them talented. And when I compare wrestlers, like, just because they're women doesn't get them a free pass, because there are talented female wrestlers out there. It's a sad contrast too. The night where Raw went head to head with Impact, I think around the same time they had Maryse vs Nikki Bella just have this atrocious match, and on Impact, Kong and Hamada took on Sarita and Taylor Wilde and those women had the second best match of the night under Styles vs Angle. They actually worked too hard, Hamada included where she injured herself and still kept going. And that's why the Divas get so much hate. If they're on the main roster, on television, then they should be at least competent. Hell, last year Erick Rowan was viewed as the worst wrestler on the roster outside of Great Khali, and he's improved by leaps and bounds. But even he wasn't as bad as some of the worst women. And it's not all their fault. It's management. They book the 30 second women's matches. They throw out Eva Marie to shit the bed because she has no experience. I've always felt that the reason THAT Jackie Gayda match is one of the worst in WWE history isn't because it really was the worst technically. There have been numerous far worse. But what it did was, it became ok to throw out inexperienced people and have them shit the bed, women especially. So going back to Erick Rowan, he was able to wrestle people so much better then him, and he improved. So I think one reason the Bellas were and are so terrible and have been for so long is they don't get the chance to wrestle people better then them. That's why hiring random models is flawed. Sara Del Rey is incredible, but she's not a miracle worker in training. So the Bellas, who like, I don't get where this line of them being solid workers comes in. What standard are they being judged on? Because I judge them on a standard of good women's wrestling, because I saw good women's wrestling before. It actually exists. I think one reason Natalya is on NXT so much is simply so people can work with someone who actually is competent. Someone who worked the indies, worked with people better then her. So you have Charlotte, who is very athletic, and she wrestles Natalya and because she's good enough to be carried, she has an amazing match. What they should do is marry Charlotte and Natalya as the old wrestler expression goes, and they should wrestle every night. So then, you have Charlotte potentially improving to the point where she can be the one carrying people. But you have to hire people who can be carried. They don't botch everything, well, I'd rather watch a match where two guys f*** up, but they don't have a dear in the headlights look when they do, but are still competent to put on a good match. And I feel the reason people defend the Bella Twins, and people of that ilk, is they haven't really seen many good wrestling matches with women. Wow you completely misquoted him. He stated the fact that people even compare rhe Bellas to Eva just says it all. Where did he say "they're better than eva/rosa so clearly they're great!!!!!". Ever since returning to wrestling full time, Nikki Bella has shown so much improvement in her moveset and versatility, she hasn't really gotten a big match to showcase it yet, but I'm sure we will get that fairly soon. You might be right there, if I misquoted I apologize. That being said, Nikki's recent outings with people like Alicia Fox for instance don't give me much confidence in her. She's improved, but to what one would feel is a competent performer, she's still less then that.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 20, 2014 17:02:41 GMT -5
Good ol' reliable FAN. No Divas related thread is ever under 3 pages. I bet a thread with nude pictures of Bertha Faye and Harvey Wippleman would do at least 4 pages.
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Post by Pillman's Pencil on Aug 20, 2014 17:13:48 GMT -5
Good ol' reliable FAN. No Divas related thread is ever under 3 pages. I bet a thread with nude pictures of Bertha Faye and Harvey Wippleman would do at least 4 pages. Or Patterson or Brisco, circa KOTR 2000.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 20, 2014 17:16:22 GMT -5
Good ol' reliable FAN. No Divas related thread is ever under 3 pages. I bet a thread with nude pictures of Bertha Faye and Harvey Wippleman would do at least 4 pages. Or Patterson or Brisco, circa KOTR 2000. The board mostly prefers their chicks without dicks.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Aug 20, 2014 18:20:38 GMT -5
That's almost exactly how the Wyatts have worked out, and they're another Triple H special. They've lost tons of momentum from earlier this year because, you guessed it, nobody seems to know how to book them. Bray makes speeches that he's evil...or that he's a savior, varying from week to week. Loses again and again to Cena. His Family loses again and again to the Usos. To what end? None. That is to say, it's not a problem unique to divas, but Paige definitely suffers from it. Paige comes in as serious wrestler, becomes underdog, gets flat crowd reactions, and now suddenly she's touching people up and acting crazy when there was no prior indication thereof? Very uneven, very bad booking. As an example that shows the positive ends of the spectrum, Mickie James as crazy was great because there was something inherently unsettling about her relationship with Trish. She was fangirling in the worst way possible and it became evident over a slow build that try as she might to act normal, she wasn't. It materialized over months of awkward and unsettling behavior. That was a female storyline done right. Paige's turn of insanity was abrupt and unbelievable. She's booked in continuity with her character from NXT. Or at least, she was when she debuted. There really was no precedent for it. Out of curiosity, what do you describe "crazy" as? Is it just supposed to be schizophrenic people, or...? WWE brands people crazy based upon outlandishly violent or sexual-related behavior (man in love with a mop, Germanic guy who dry humps people and reads them poetry, etc.). Layla fits into the latter group. I'll just agree to disagree on Paige, but lmao no. That is you paying way too much attention to her matches, commentary has never picked up on it and Lay probably doesn't even notice. I suggest porn for a better alternative to jerk off to though. Have fun! I suggest you never use that last two lines again. Have fun.
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1295
Mike the Goon
Posts: 34
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Post by 1295 on Aug 20, 2014 19:18:05 GMT -5
I'll just agree to disagree on Paige, but lmao no. That is you paying way too much attention to her matches, commentary has never picked up on it and Lay probably doesn't even notice. I suggest porn for a better alternative to jerk off to though. Have fun! I suggest you never use that last two lines again. Have fun. Hmm I think I will do as I please. xoxo
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 19:21:27 GMT -5
Haha. Yes.
As far as Layla, the gropiness isn't part of her character at all, it's her own weird thing, probably a way of ribbing those she's in the ring with. That doesn't hae any bearing on how WWE characterizes divas.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,990
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Post by Sparkybob on Aug 20, 2014 19:21:40 GMT -5
I suggest you never use that last two lines again. Have fun. Hmm I think I will do as I please. xoxo
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