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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 27, 2014 19:59:14 GMT -5
That's the other thing: the "real sport" parallel doesn't work, either. In a team sport like baseball/hockey/football/basketball, a team can get absolutely thrashed, but have nobody injured in the process. You can lose 7-0 in hockey, but have your entire team skate off the ice in perfectly fine physical shape, even if some guys took some hits along the boards during the game. Pro wrestling isn't a team sport, so your closest parallel is a combat sport, where the entire point is that you're using pain, or the threat of pain, to defeat your opponent. What Lesnar did to Cena was the equivalent of a boxing champ getting knocked loopy five seconds into a match, then continuing to pound him for another three or four rounds because the stubborn bastard just wouldn't stay down. No boxer walks away from a thrashing like that feeling 100%; he/she'll need months to recover, at a minimum, because getting hit in the head repeatedly screws you up. Wrestling is where legitimate sports presentation and fictional, hype-building storytelling is meant to intersect; what they did with Cena was a failure on both fronts. how many times have wrestlers participated in hardcore matches and come out a week later none the worse for wear. Brock's fists aren't concrete. Citing one of the stupidest legacies of the Attitude Era doesn't help your case.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 27, 2014 20:16:50 GMT -5
Joseph Campbell wasted his time researching the various stages of the Hero's Journey monomyth Apparently it's far simpler than that. WWE have figured it out. They've found the correct formula 1- Hero faces enemy 2- Enemy rips him a new asshole 3- Hero comes back just over a week later demonstrating no lasting effects, any lessons learned, and is back to his default self destroying enemies who just months previously were supposedly seriously challengers, thus making those challengers look like dicks and removing any dramatic tension from the upcoming confrontation with the same enemy who defeated him so brutally. My god, it's all so clear now. All those writers and filmmakers who spent time crafting compelling stories were fools. David Kapoor and Vince McMahon have discovered how it's supposed to be done! Oh wait, this is just like real sport, and Cena never quits. He's an underdog, so this all makes sense. Just like Randall Tex Cobb. He got beat a little bit. Nothing too bad. A week later he showed up as confident as shit and challenged Larry Holmes again! the heroes journey ha gotten old Most (normal) people like a little suspense in their stories. Makes the emotional connection stronger and more rewarding when resolved. I can't imagine someone who is not a small child just wanting to see absolutely no conflict or odds in a story. What's the point otherwise? What is gained? Where's the drama?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5
the heroes journey ha gotten old That's true. A tried and tested and proven to be successful formula which has endured for centuries and spanned multiple civilisations and periods of history has run its course. That must be why all those works of fiction like Lord of the Rings, the Hunger Games, Star Wars, Skyfall, Harry Potter, Batman etc....were all massive flops. People are sick of all that stuff. They want Cena-esque booking. there's more than a few of those I've skipped but in what world did Batman ever refuse the call (and if Luke Skywalker did it was a pretty short refusal). I've always preferred the heroes who jump at the call, which dismantles a significant portion of the monomyth. Or heroes who are soldiers or law enforcement, which makes acting their duty. I don't need the heroes best friend or family to suffer or die to know the invading army is bad news
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 27, 2014 20:27:35 GMT -5
That's the other thing: the "real sport" parallel doesn't work, either. In a team sport like baseball/hockey/football/basketball, a team can get absolutely thrashed, but have nobody injured in the process. You can lose 7-0 in hockey, but have your entire team skate off the ice in perfectly fine physical shape, even if some guys took some hits along the boards during the game. Pro wrestling isn't a team sport, so your closest parallel is a combat sport, where the entire point is that you're using pain, or the threat of pain, to defeat your opponent. What Lesnar did to Cena was the equivalent of a boxing champ getting knocked loopy five seconds into a match, then continuing to pound him for another three or four rounds because the stubborn bastard just wouldn't stay down. No boxer walks away from a thrashing like that feeling 100%; he/she'll need months to recover, at a minimum, because getting hit in the head repeatedly screws you up. Wrestling is where legitimate sports presentation and fictional, hype-building storytelling is meant to intersect; what they did with Cena was a failure on both fronts. how many times have wrestlers participated in hardcore matches and come out a week later none the worse for wear. Brock's fists aren't concrete. I hate when wrestlers/bookers do that.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 20:31:01 GMT -5
the heroes journey ha gotten old Most (normal) people like a little suspense in their stories. Makes the emotional connection stronger and more rewarding when resolved. I can't imagine someone who is not a small child just wanting to see absolutely no conflict or odds in a story. What's the point otherwise? What is gained? Where's the drama? the point is not losing everything. The drama is the potential for failure. I don't need to see it to know it's possible.
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Post by gnr123 on Aug 27, 2014 20:35:12 GMT -5
As a Cena fan, I have defended a lot of booking and storylines. But, there's nothing really to defend here.
Before Summerslam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and retain my Championship."
After Summerlsam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and win back the WWE Championship."
What's the storyline? That's Cena's no stronger, bigger, tougher than ever? That now he can do suplex's? Brock legit squashed Cena at Summerslam, let's make no mistake about it, that was a squash match. Brock made Cena his bitch, he countered every move, powered out of the STF, and gave him 16 suplex's. So, now since he can do suplex's he's going to win? Bullshit. Like I said in the RAW thread, they could have went about this any other way and it would be good. Cena could show some fear, some uncertainty, it won't hurt him. It adds to the storyline. Have him say that he never asked for his rematch so soon, that the Authority put him into it because they want him gone. Have him say that he's sorry for letting every, including the WWE, down for allowing a "mercenary" to become champion. Instead, we get big tough John Cena all ready to fight. What does he think, Brock going to be afraid or scared of a man he just beat the ever living shit out of?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 20:41:26 GMT -5
As a Cena fan, I have defended a lot of booking and storylines. But, there's nothing really to defend here. Before Summerslam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and retain my Championship." After Summerlsam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and win back the WWE Championship." What's the storyline? That's Cena's no stronger, bigger, tougher than ever? That now he can do suplex's? Brock legit squashed Cena at Summerslam, let's make no mistake about it, that was a squash match. Brock made Cena his bitch, he countered every move, powered out of the STF, and gave him 16 suplex's. So, now since he can do suplex's he's going to win? Bullshit. Like I said in the RAW thread, they could have went about this any other way and it would be good. Cena could show some fear, some uncertainty, it won't hurt him. It adds to the storyline. Have him say that he never asked for his rematch so soon, that the Authority put him into it because they want him gone. Have him say that he's sorry for letting every, including the WWE, down for allowing a "mercenary" to become champion. Instead, we get big tough John Cena all ready to fight. What does he think, Brock going to be afraid or scared of a man he just beat the ever living shit out of? it's not in his personality. Cena doesn't do fear. And he shouldn't. And who says he's trying to make Brock afraid?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 27, 2014 20:46:15 GMT -5
Most (normal) people like a little suspense in their stories. Makes the emotional connection stronger and more rewarding when resolved. I can't imagine someone who is not a small child just wanting to see absolutely no conflict or odds in a story. What's the point otherwise? What is gained? Where's the drama? the point is not losing everything. The drama is the potential for failure. I don't need to see it to know it's possible. Hero's journey isn't always about losing everything. But a hero has to fail or lose something in most cases to rise to his true and fullest potential, and to take the viewer/reader on the biggest and most emotional ride. The good guy just winning effortlessly (i.e. the Steven Seagal effect I call it) is just boring and unrewarding. It's child-like in its presentation, and often leads to backlash or resentment. That's why the vast majority of people hate the Road Runner. We were never given a single reason to like him, feel for him, or doubt he would win. So much so that like the Trix Rabbit in the 80's, kids in the 50's wrote in letters begging for Coyote to win, because he became the true underdog --despite the truth that he wanted to eat the Road Runner. That's how little people felt for him. He became so irritating and unrelatable that people pulled for his potential murderer. Cena seems to have the same effect on people. And it's sad that Cena's true legacy will be A) that he was never booked as a proper hero, thus fans never got to feel the super lows to monumental highs previous generations did with guys like Hogan, who'd sell brutal injuries, then return for revenge to the adoration of the fanbase, and B) that Vince's own twisted and incorrect world-view shapes the presentation of a guy who should be much more appreciated that what he is -- if only they paced and told proper stories.
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Post by gnr123 on Aug 27, 2014 20:48:25 GMT -5
As a Cena fan, I have defended a lot of booking and storylines. But, there's nothing really to defend here. Before Summerslam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and retain my Championship." After Summerlsam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and win back the WWE Championship." What's the storyline? That's Cena's no stronger, bigger, tougher than ever? That now he can do suplex's? Brock legit squashed Cena at Summerslam, let's make no mistake about it, that was a squash match. Brock made Cena his bitch, he countered every move, powered out of the STF, and gave him 16 suplex's. So, now since he can do suplex's he's going to win? Bullshit. Like I said in the RAW thread, they could have went about this any other way and it would be good. Cena could show some fear, some uncertainty, it won't hurt him. It adds to the storyline. Have him say that he never asked for his rematch so soon, that the Authority put him into it because they want him gone. Have him say that he's sorry for letting every, including the WWE, down for allowing a "mercenary" to become champion. Instead, we get big tough John Cena all ready to fight. What does he think, Brock going to be afraid or scared of a man he just beat the ever living shit out of? it's not in his personality. Cena doesn't do fear. And he shouldn't. And who says he's trying to make Brock afraid? Sure, you can say it's not his gimmick to show fear, but when you get absolutely destroyed by a person who obviously superior to you in every way, than I think anybody would at least be uncertain if they want to face them again. Hell, atleast have a injuries angle and say that Cen can't complete until medically cleared, but Cena keeps saying that he's ready and the Authority don't want him to fight Brock again because they want him out of the championship picture. Or, hell, have him off RAW until the Monday before NOC.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 27, 2014 20:52:31 GMT -5
As a Cena fan, I have defended a lot of booking and storylines. But, there's nothing really to defend here. Before Summerslam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and retain my Championship." After Summerlsam: "I'm going to beat Brock Lesnar and win back the WWE Championship." What's the storyline? That's Cena's no stronger, bigger, tougher than ever? That now he can do suplex's? Brock legit squashed Cena at Summerslam, let's make no mistake about it, that was a squash match. Brock made Cena his bitch, he countered every move, powered out of the STF, and gave him 16 suplex's. So, now since he can do suplex's he's going to win? Bullshit. Like I said in the RAW thread, they could have went about this any other way and it would be good. Cena could show some fear, some uncertainty, it won't hurt him. It adds to the storyline. Have him say that he never asked for his rematch so soon, that the Authority put him into it because they want him gone. Have him say that he's sorry for letting every, including the WWE, down for allowing a "mercenary" to become champion. Instead, we get big tough John Cena all ready to fight. What does he think, Brock going to be afraid or scared of a man he just beat the ever living shit out of? it's not in his personality. Cena doesn't do fear. And he shouldn't. And who says he's trying to make Brock afraid? Cena does do fear. (the demon kid). He just forgets he was afraid the next night because his character has a severe Bi-Polar disorder. All kidding aside, the character really does. And it all makes sense when you realize the deranged imbecile who writes him suffers from that same calamity. Vince makes no sense and is irrationally inconsistent in every day life. So no wonder his perfect avatar exhibits those same traits. It all makes sense. Cena is like one of those surrogate puppets from that Bruce Willis movie that Grandpa Loony Vince gets to virtually man to his heart's content.
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Post by angryfan on Aug 27, 2014 21:25:46 GMT -5
In this day and age, in this weekly appearance on TV wrestling world, Cena absolutely HAS to do fear. He has no choice, because not doing so means that no program can last, and the roster will be run through in far shorter order.
Unless, of course, the point is that everyone not named Cena is replaceable. We don't get the midcard with prestige from the 80's, we don't get the "they're worthy opponents and special) from the 90's, we just get "Whatever, they're not Cena".
Maybe some will think that's preferable, but I don't see it as a long-term plan for success without a constant stream of new faces to feed to him.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 27, 2014 21:44:09 GMT -5
The biggest problem here is that, by having Cena already back on screen and dominating another wrestler so soon after his dismantling at the hands of Lesnar, the WWE has already blown one of its all time potential biggest moments. Unless I'm completely blanking on it, there has never been a "face of the WWF/E" in its history so thoroughly torn apart by such a legitimatized heel opponent. Not Bruno, not Backlund, not Hogan, not Bret or Shawn or Diesel, not Austin or Rock, etc. In pure storytelling terms, this is a cataclysmic level event in the fictional world of WWF/E; as said so often before, this is Superman dying at the hands of Doomsday, only this time Doomsday didn't just also survive the battle, he completely thrashed Superman and humiliated him in the process. Storytelling 101 says that this should shake the very foundation of the company, and should be followed by major consequences. It doesn't mean that Cena can't eventually show back up, can't rebuild himself in some way, but there has to be some sort of impact on him, along with just about everybody else. You can't blow this: you've gone 60+ years without an angle like this available to you, now you finally have it due to the convergence of a guy who's been on top of the company for 10+ years and a guy who was first built as an unstoppable beast in WWF, and then won the biggest title in a legitimate combat sports league. This is your chance to do this angle and have people buy it 100%; nobody can deny it being a big moment. None of this is to say that Cena has to go emo or completely broken in spirit, but for some reason we're letting this thread get bogged down in strawman arguments instead of acknowledging that a hero can go through changes, crises, and moments of vulnerability without having to go all late 80s/early 90s "grimdark" in their overall characterization. Exactly my point, more eloquently made. But hossfan and others won't respond to this because it destroys all their logic. This is NOT REAL WORLD SPORTS. This is pro wrestling. even in Rocky 3, Rocky went through SOME development before returning to beat Clubber Lang. His trainer passed away. Not only that, but BEFORE Clubber Lang he showed development of getting way too confident and after the fight he didn't pop back up next week wanting a match the very next month. No one is saying Cena can't rise back up at Wrestlemani.a But because this is the first time he has been dominated, or ANYONE Has been dominated in this way, the story practically demands some acknowledgement of this. Again, in real life, the opposing team or man sometimes doesn't show any fear or admit any weaknesses, sure. Just gets back up. This is entertainment, as the WWE so likes to remind us. As viewers we expect to be able to SEE the development of the story and of the hero in particular, not have to kind of wonder and fill in the blanks. In a movie or TV Series, writers understand this, and write their shows as such. Man, this is pathetic. Did Cena/Punk at MitB 11 NEED to show that contract signing? Not really, not at all. But it helped and furthered the depth of the story being told to show it as such, it revealed more of Punk's character, and of Vince, and even of Cena himself there. Check again. I did respond to it. People keep misrepresenting what I said, likely deliberately, in order to prove their point that its "illogical" to have Cena act a certain way. There is nothing "illogical" about Cena coming back from a beating saying the next time he faces Lesnar he's going to kick his ass. There are real world examples of people acting the same way after being humiliatingly defeated. If something actually has happened, you cannot say its illogical for it to happen in fiction. That is common sense. You can argue the point its stupid for WWE to go this route of story-telling, you can argue that Cena's character is stupid for feeling that way, but you cannot say its illogical. Clear enough?
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
Posts: 12,288
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Post by ICBM on Aug 27, 2014 22:22:56 GMT -5
Seriously, it is as basic as it gets. Cena is the face of the brand. Brock is a draw but a part timer. They built Brock up so that Cena can beat him and have it mean something. Cena is going over Brock next time they meet. I may not like it. You may not like it. But we have to learn to live with it. If Brock was a week in week out guy, he might beat Cena next time. But he isn't and it doesn't make longterm sense to have him as the center piece for the long haul. The short money and the long money is in Cena. That has been proven again and again. One day he will be phased out and some upstart will make his name off of beating him. It will mean a lot bc Cena has beaten such legends and Brock is among them. That's part of the long money. Hogan, flair, Hart, Rock and even Austin did it. Austin made Angle and Jericho.Rock made Cena, Angle, Jericho, Brock etc. Hogan made warrior, Goldberg, Earthquake, Bossman. Flair made everybody.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 27, 2014 22:36:27 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I don't think there's a single prayer of Cena winning at Night of Champions. They've invested too much in Brock this year for him not to have a longer run with the belt.
There'd be more of a prayer if they saved Cena's rematch for, say, the Rumble, but they're just not doing a thing to built up drama in the wake of the SummerSlam match.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 23:23:40 GMT -5
I keep reading the title as Sin Cara could have beaten Brock if he wanted? I was really hoping for more crazy OG Sin Cara interviews.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 5:31:14 GMT -5
The biggest problem here is that, by having Cena already back on screen and dominating another wrestler so soon after his dismantling at the hands of Lesnar, the WWE has already blown one of its all time potential biggest moments. Unless I'm completely blanking on it, there has never been a "face of the WWF/E" in its history so thoroughly torn apart by such a legitimatized heel opponent. Not Bruno, not Backlund, not Hogan, not Bret or Shawn or Diesel, not Austin or Rock, etc. In pure storytelling terms, this is a cataclysmic level event in the fictional world of WWF/E; as said so often before, this is Superman dying at the hands of Doomsday, only this time Doomsday didn't just also survive the battle, he completely thrashed Superman and humiliated him in the process. Storytelling 101 says that this should shake the very foundation of the company, and should be followed by major consequences. It doesn't mean that Cena can't eventually show back up, can't rebuild himself in some way, but there has to be some sort of impact on him, along with just about everybody else. You can't blow this: you've gone 60+ years without an angle like this available to you, now you finally have it due to the convergence of a guy who's been on top of the company for 10+ years and a guy who was first built as an unstoppable beast in WWF, and then won the biggest title in a legitimate combat sports league. This is your chance to do this angle and have people buy it 100%; nobody can deny it being a big moment. None of this is to say that Cena has to go emo or completely broken in spirit, but for some reason we're letting this thread get bogged down in strawman arguments instead of acknowledging that a hero can go through changes, crises, and moments of vulnerability without having to go all late 80s/early 90s "grimdark" in their overall characterization. Exactly my point, more eloquently made. But hossfan and others won't respond to this because it destroys all their logic. This is NOT REAL WORLD SPORTS. This is pro wrestling. even in Rocky 3, Rocky went through SOME development before returning to beat Clubber Lang. His trainer passed away. Not only that, but BEFORE Clubber Lang he showed development of getting way too confident and after the fight he didn't pop back up next week wanting a match the very next month. No one is saying Cena can't rise back up at Wrestlemani.a But because this is the first time he has been dominated, or ANYONE Has been dominated in this way, the story practically demands some acknowledgement of this. Again, in real life, the opposing team or man sometimes doesn't show any fear or admit any weaknesses, sure. Just gets back up. This is entertainment, as the WWE so likes to remind us. As viewers we expect to be able to SEE the development of the story and of the hero in particular, not have to kind of wonder and fill in the blanks. In a movie or TV Series, writers understand this, and write their shows as such. Man, this is pathetic. Did Cena/Punk at MitB 11 NEED to show that contract signing? Not really, not at all. But it helped and furthered the depth of the story being told to show it as such, it revealed more of Punk's character, and of Vince, and even of Cena himself there. wrestling may not be a real sport, but it's also not a movie. Fans watched Rocky recover from the beating Clubber Lang gave in less time than Monday Night Raw takes
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2014 6:38:05 GMT -5
Batman Forever. Bruce Wayne shuts down the Batcave and wants a life with Chase Meridian and also to dissuade Dick Grayson from following in his footsteps. Then Two Face and the Riddler attack and Bruce Wayne decides that being Batman is simply his life, but now by choice rather than moral obligation.
But a profound one. It takes a huge trauma in order for him to accept his destiny.
Plenty of soldiers and cops in fiction question their duty. I'm sure they do in real life too.
In movie running time, yes, but in film chronology weeks passed between the first and second fights, and the audience also witnessed a great deal of character development during that gap. In fact, Stallone's screenplay covered a vastly larger amount of development and storytelling in two hours than WWE ever bothers to do in the four weeks between PPV's, which for an episodic television series with 12 hours of airtime a month is unforgivable.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 12:06:17 GMT -5
Batman Forever. Bruce Wayne shuts down the Batcave and wants a life with Chase Meridian and also to dissuade Dick Grayson from following in his footsteps. Then Two Face and the Riddler attack and Bruce Wayne decides that being Batman is simply his life, but now by choice rather than moral obligation. But a profound one. It takes a huge trauma in order for him to accept his destiny. Plenty of soldiers and cops in fiction question their duty. I'm sure they do in real life too. In movie running time, yes, but in film chronology weeks passed between the first and second fights, and the audience also witnessed a great deal of character development during that gap. In fact, Stallone's screenplay covered a vastly larger amount of development and storytelling in two hours than WWE ever bothers to do in the four weeks between PPV's, which for an episodic television series with 12 hours of airtime a month is unforgivable. the placement of refusal of the call marks it as a key part of the origin. I'm not sure retiring really counts My point about the Rocky Clubber Lang story was that fans didn't have to WATCH the extended sequence of really dealing with a loss. They didn't even get a chance to think about it. Doing it in real time with WWE does give that time to the fans.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 28, 2014 12:13:19 GMT -5
We've went over this before, but ALL of the steps of the Hero's Journey don't have to be present in the monomyth. It's more fluid than that; but the core is always intact. And there are variations even within the steps. Something like Refusal of the Call doesn't HAVE to be a long drawn out thing, it can be as simple as doubt.
And Luke Skywalker's Refusal is just obvious. He doesn't want to get involved, and even tells Obi-wan he can't right up until his aunt and uncle are killed.
As far as Batman, a good example is Mask of the Phantasm, where-in with the flashback after he meets Andrea Beaumont, he literally goes to his parent's graves and tries to rationalize living normal life, asking them if it can be different.
If you're trying to shoot holes in something, try to at least have a working knowledge of what you're talking about
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 12:27:07 GMT -5
We've went over this before, but ALL of the steps of the Hero's Journey don't have to be present in the monomyth. It's more fluid than that; but the core is always intact. And there are variations even within the steps. Something like Refusal of the Call doesn't HAVE to be a long drawn out thing, it can be as simple as doubt. And Luke Skywalker's Refusal is just obvious. He doesn't want to get involved, and even tells Obi-wan he can't right up until his aunt and uncle are killed. As far as Batman, a good example is Mask of the Phantasm, where-in with the flashback after he meets Andrea Beaumont, he literally goes to his parent's graves and tries to rationalize living normal life, asking them if it can be different. If you're trying to shoot holes in something, try to at least have a working knowledge of what you're talking about you do know how many versions of Batman with optional material there are? When Mask of the Phantasm was released I wasn't even sure it had anything to do with Batman: the Animated Series. And honestly the way you define the monomyth is cheap. You can adjust virtually any story with that if you're rearranging the steps.
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