Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 17:25:03 GMT -5
On top of that they still spend way too much time establishing how cool and badass the heels are then have these blandy babyfaces beat them. If they flipped the script on the heel/face dynamics with a few very small tweaks it would probably make more sense. And if they did that, everyone would complain that WWE is holding back the heels, and not letting them be as awesome as they can be. True, but they're already doing that now - at least this way things might be more interesting. |
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,056 
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 26, 2014 17:24:56 GMT -5
I think the problem is that WWE only knows how to tell stories from the heel point of view these days. We just came off a PPV where the faces were all built up for a couple of months to be crushed by the heels. There's also an elephant in the room here: WWE doesn't have that many great heels either. I guess Lesnar is, but he really doesn't cheat or DO anything evil. In fact if not for Heyman (who is a great heel) there would be no real reason to boo Lesnar. Same deal with Rusev. Other than Lana badmouthing America, why exactly is Rusev an evildoer? Rollins is currently the only guy in WWE that I think fans want to see get horribly destroyed and would pay money to see it. It is no coincidence that Ambrose is also one of the most over babyfaces. It takes two to tango. It's tough to be an over face without an over heel and vice versa. Lesnar COULD be a heel even then, since part of his character is that he's here mostly because of the huge paycheck, but also because he gets off on breaking bones and ruining careers. If WWE wasn't afraid of being painted even more as misogynists as they already do, they could run an angle of having Brock come out and snapping AJ's legs, just because he can and nobody can stop him. Of course, it also doesn't help that with his very limited schedule, they can't waste his appearances having him snap the limbs of low-carders and divas. |
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 26, 2014 22:21:02 GMT -5
Heels are not supposed to be "awesome". Disagree. In other forms of entertainment, the best and most memorable heels have been entertaining. Darth Vader, Magneto Hannibal Lector, Jafar, Scar, Mayor Wilkins, The Daleks. They are all awesome and fun to watch but, you still want to see them win because they're opposed by likeable heroes or they're just such evil dicks that you want to see them get their comeuppance. Heels should be awesome, they shouldn't be generic and dull which is how the WWE usually seem to try to generate heat with them. But they should be so evil or dickish you want to see them get beat up (They did well with Douchetista. He was entertaining and awesome; but such a dick you wanted to see him lose) or be opposed by faces you want to see win. |
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Post by g1megatronfan on Aug 26, 2014 22:28:44 GMT -5
That's true. Speaking for myself only two faces come off as likable and they are Ambrose and Ziggler. The rest are abysmal.
John Cena - sucks ass.
Roman Reigns - screw this guy. Absolutely no reason for me to like him. He's boring as hell and his matches are worse than Cena's. Like I said...screw this guy. They're 100% looney for pushing this guy when the other two shield members would have been much better choices.
The rest are boring. No need to waste time in typing anything about them.
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Post by Starshine on Aug 27, 2014 8:34:38 GMT -5
The WWE face locker room seems to be full of dude bro, meathead fratboy types who always laugh at their own jokes.
It's all part of the patented Vince McMahon babyface blueprint: "You can ever be too obnoxious."
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Post by Just call me D.j.m. on Aug 27, 2014 8:45:30 GMT -5
The WWE face locker room seems to be full of dude bro, meathead fratboy types who always laugh at their own jokes. It's all part of the patented Vince McMahon babyface blueprint: "You can ever be too obnoxious." I've always thought the blueprint was "This is how The Rock was. We must make everyone as much like The Rock as we can to create another megastar." Also, I've said this before, it seems like some people in this thread want all of the babyfaces to be edgy, cool badasses or something. And I don't want that either. I want them to be likable. And that's why I back The Usos. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 27, 2014 12:59:15 GMT -5
The WWE face locker room seems to be full of dude bro, meathead fratboy types who always laugh at their own jokes. It's all part of the patented Vince McMahon babyface blueprint: "You can ever be too obnoxious." I've always thought the blueprint was "This is how The Rock was. We must make everyone as much like The Rock as we can to create another megastar." Also, I've said this before, it seems like some people in this thread want all of the babyfaces to be edgy, cool badasses or something. And I don't want that either. I want them to be likable. And that's why I back The Usos. I see nothing wrong with this formula except that they apply it to people who don't fit it at all. There are lots of guys who I think should and shouldn't have followed the "Rock" formula. Sheamus should've never been a smiling jokester. He should be "edgy cool badass". He should be the Celtic Warrior that comes in and wrecks shit. Bobby Lashley should've straight up never talked. Or at least never should've been making jokes like "My dad's uncle, etc." Christian should've been a seriously pushed face version of Captain Charisma. Heel Christian gets mic time, but as a face he never got to have that persona and shine. His partner Edge did well in the comedy regard. I believe it was Edge who started the "You Suck" chants during Kurt Angle's music. It actually worked for Cena during the rap gimmick and for the first few years of his main event run when he was the 1B to Vince, HHH, and Michaels. But when they started to seriously get behind him as a flagship performer they should've dropped it or toned it down. Roman Reigns shouldn't be like that. The two guys who I think fit the dudebro comedy face mold the most are The Miz and Dolph Ziggler. I know people have used Ziggler's promo work as a negative, but I actually like his "I'm totally getting laid tonight you guys, maybe even with two women! And their boyfriends. high five. am I right" promos. And Miz is just such a naturally funny and funny looking guy, that being a huge obnoxious cheesy dork just feels right. They tried it with Alex Riley during his feud with Ziggler, and his barbs towards Vickie were so awful and cheesy, but at the same time he delivered it with so much confidence that you couldn't help but crack a smirk. I also think that if Riley were given another shot with the persona he currently uses on commentary, he'd fit that mold as well. |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319 
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 17:11:38 GMT -5
I noticed that watching Raw. Incidentally the first full length episode I've watched for years. Let's have a look. Reigns - Can't cut a promo. Dull as dishwater. Can't wrestle. Forced down our throats. Isn't entertaining or likeable in the slightest. Cena - Great wrestler hampered by bad booking that just makes me want to see him go away or at least go onto a limited schedule. Sheamus - Lame joke telling fool. The Usos - Pair of boring douches. Basically the tag team version of Kofi Kingston since they have no personality. Kofi Kingston - Good wrestler. No personality. Annoying. Big Show & Mark Henry - Big Show sucks completely, Henry I do actually like. Los Matadores - Yeah right. Dolph Ziggler - Basically Kofi Kingston as he has no personality either. He doesn't annoy me like Kofi does, but he's just there. It says something when The Miz is showing more personality and character. Brie Bella - No thanks, she sucks. RVD - Boring, lazy has-been. Go away. Swagger - I do actually like but of course, WWE are predictably misusing him. AJ - I like her. I like Paige more but AJ is ok. The face roster is dreadful. It's devoid of personality and likeability. so what do you like? It's easy to say you don't like something, maybe a bit harder to say what you do. I mean you say Kofi Kingston is a good wrestler but he has no personality and that he is annoying. If he has no personality then what's annoying about him? |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 17:15:51 GMT -5
What gets me is that fans always have different reasons as to why they don't like WWE's faces. Some I can totally understand, others not so much. They are often less developed than the heels, and I can see how people don't like it when they don't take situations seriously or don't retaliate properly. But half the time I wonder, even if the faces were booked better and the top faces weren't as overexposed- would that really change anything? Or do fans really do want more of an Attitude approach in their top guys? Often I can't tell if the problem really is bad writing, or people just wanting a certain kind of face. For me, hopefully Bryan (who is as nice and upright as a face can be) taking off the way he did was a sign that that's not the case, and that you don't have to be an Austin-style badass to get fans to cheer for you so long as you make sense. But the way a lot of fans talk makes me doubt that. And I loved Austin, but mostly because of his insane charisma rather than the Stone Cold persona itself. He could have been Stunning Steve and I still would have enjoyed him beating up Vince. For me, I just want my faces to be interesting and entertaining. I liked Bryan because he was a genuinely funny, likeable guy with problems with his temper yet was still a reasonably good guy plus he was booked as a total underdog who you could get behind. Time after time he was laid out by the heels and beat up and, if I remember right, he also lost a lot of matches and didn't win all the time. He had both character (a good guy with a bad temper who let little things anger him) and a reason for us to support him (an underdog). With Cena, I've no problems with his actual character. I like his "never give up" motivated guy thing. I'm a fan of his character but I feel no tension or threat in any of his feuds and matches because he's very rarely in any peril. You know he'll "overcome the odds" again. you're aware that every match Bryan lost made people on here say he was being buried? As for Cena, the point of a story where the odds are against you is so you can overcome them. A story where the world is against you, and it's to much and you lose sucks |
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Aug 28, 2014 2:37:38 GMT -5
The problem that I have with the faces in the WWE is that they spend like 90% of every match selling with a handful of guys being the exception (Cena, Reigns, Sheamus, etc.). They never even win in convincing fashion against guys like Slater, O'neal, or any other lower to mid level heel. The company seems too interested in turning heels into faces instead of cultivating faces from the ground up.
Back in the 80's-early 90's, faces got to show off their skill set in convincing fashion on job guys and lower level guys. Fans knew what to look forward to when they came out and knew that they could beat the heels in a fair fight. But today's heels beat faces clean as a sheet every single week with no cheating or dirty tactics in short matches. So how am I to get behind a face when they can't beat a loser like the miz when he doesn't even take shortcuts and demolishes them in 3 minutes?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 5:32:31 GMT -5
The problem that I have with the faces in the WWE is that they spend like 90% of every match selling with a handful of guys being the exception (Cena, Reigns, Sheamus, etc.). They never even win in convincing fashion against guys like Slater, O'neal, or any other lower to mid level heel. The company seems too interested in turning heels into faces instead of cultivating faces from the ground up. Back in the 80's-early 90's, faces got to show off their skill set in convincing fashion on job guys and lower level guys. Fans knew what to look forward to when they came out and knew that they could beat the heels in a fair fight. But today's heels beat faces clean as a sheet every single week with no cheating or dirty tactics in short matches. So how am I to get behind a face when they can't beat a loser like the miz when he doesn't even take shortcuts and demolishes them in 3 minutes? even guys like Cena spend 60 to 70% of the time selling unless it's a real short match. |
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Post by sunnytaker on Aug 28, 2014 7:28:14 GMT -5
I'm so incredibly tired of this stupid expression. Anyone else? It amuses me that during the rise of the SHield most people were calling Ambrose limited and overrated. And praising Reigns. Now Reigns is limited and forced down our throats and Ambrose is the one who deserves the push. This happened, with a lot of people. Now when people have turned on Reigns I am kind of hoping he does get a good push. I hope all three members do. I don't yet see John Cena v 2 in him. i was safe- i was in the minority who preferred Rollins of the three SHIELD members and still do. ambrose i'm still kinda meh on and same with Reigns |
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2014 7:51:13 GMT -5
The problem is that WWE have their designated faces and heels, and expect the fans to robotically boo and cheer according their preferred booking
Doesn't work that way.
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Post by tropicalstormstl on Aug 28, 2014 8:11:11 GMT -5
I think the main problem most of the roster has with playing a likable character is that most of them are crappy people.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2014 8:13:35 GMT -5
Having no personality
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 28, 2014 8:22:30 GMT -5
I still like The Usos and Kofi Kingston, but I can see that there's not really that much to them that can lend itself to a really great story.
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neilc
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 542
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Post by neilc on Aug 28, 2014 8:25:25 GMT -5
And if they did that, everyone would complain that WWE is holding back the heels, and not letting them be as awesome as they can be. True, but they're already doing that now - at least this way things might be more interesting. Most of the heels don't fare much better. When he first turned, Rollins was cool, saying put Ambrose in a match with him so he knows where he is. Now, he seems to have become a typical chicken--- heel, like almost everyone else. |
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Post by SEND FOR THE MAN!!! on Aug 28, 2014 8:56:32 GMT -5
Call me old school, but "personality" has nothing to do with whether I like a wrestler or not. Can they kick ass in the ring? If so, I'll cheer for you, heel or face.
Goldberg had the personality of a doorknob in WCW and was awesome. Came to WWE, they tried to give him one, nobody liked him.
Lesnar still has no "personality", yet from what I read here, most people want him to beat Cena.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2014 9:00:13 GMT -5
Lesnar and Goldberg have/had personalities. They were intense tough guys who took no shit from anyone and didn't talk too much.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Aug 28, 2014 9:14:18 GMT -5
Reigns- Forced down our throats. I'm so incredibly tired of this stupid expression. Anyone else? Yes. It's similar to the post about being jaded long term fans. WWE did the same thing with all of their major faces getting the rocket push. Just because we were to young to notice or care didn't mean it wasn't happening. |
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