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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Aug 27, 2014 6:57:43 GMT -5
Cena. at least Triple H kept his burials in the main event and Hogan made at least as many guys as he buried, probably more. worst thing is, it's probably not even really Cenas fault; WWE creative just keeps feeding him guys in the mistaken belief that he needs to wrestle every week and win every week.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 27, 2014 7:55:49 GMT -5
1. Well that's not really a great start: "They were hiring anyone who was Mexican" To be 'nepotism defined' his last name would have been the main reason he got his foot in the door, it was not. He probably wouldn't have gotten a look in were it not for the big push to hire people for the cruiserweights so owes his WCW career more to that than to being a Guerrero. I was going to write a rebuttal for most of these guys being make up the numbers talent, but that would make this post even more bloated. While most of them weren't talents from WCW's peak, Credible wasn't even in WCW and arrived before the invasion, they were all people who had received a pretty big push toward the end of WCW... Except Bagwell who had coasted since the NWO, but remained a fairly big name and a serviceable talent. WCW was losing a lot of talent around the time Eddie left, most of the cruiser talent had left after receiving a depush, heck, most of the midcard had either left or was about to and was being replaced by powerplant guys. Wrestling has a history of depushing and humiliating the less talented/pushed family member when the more talented one leaves before firing them outright because there are some petty, petty people in charge. Rosey was given a comedy gimmick and named S.H.I.T, Primo didn't get any sort of sustained push and is now playing a dead end Mexican cliche gimmick despite being from Puerto Rico... But yeah, The management of two different companies saw enough in Chavo not to do that to him. Two time WCW Cruiserweight champion. WCW tag champion. Four time WWE Cruiserweight champion It was poor form to push anyone using Eddie's death, I don't think they cared about doing the classy thing, I mean they had Eddie's widow end up working as a heel. Chavo is a good hand in the ring, a guy who can cut an adequate promo and work with pretty much anyone and have a decent match and that is why they kept him around so long. Had Eddie lived, Chavo would have been used as a veteran enhancement talent and comedy guy, the role he played before Eddie died and the same role he played after. He's far, far from being 'nepotism defined', not in an industry with the likes of Greg Gagne, Erik Watts, David Flair, Larry Z, Stephanie McMahon, Brooke Hogan, Brutus Beefcake, George Gulas, Horace Hogan, Dustin Rhodes, Brian Christopher, Jeff Jarrett, Garrett Bischoff, Wes Brisco... and Triple H being pushed as the dominant face of the company and going over all comers, being booked and protected in a way that is usually reserved for babyfaces like Cena, despite being a heel.
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Post by joediego on Aug 27, 2014 7:57:53 GMT -5
Hmm that quote earlier in thread makes me think Orton is in contention, Cody, Ted Jr, Kofi, Barrett and The New Nexus are the obvious examples (although many of them were going nowhere anyway). Even further up the card I think he's damaged Christian, Ziggler and especially The Big Show after their awful WWE title feud. I'm also of the opinion he drags people down even when putting them over (Roman Reigns) but that's not a full derail. Unlike the others mentioned I'm struggling to think of anybody that's really benefited from beating him in one-on-one competition other than people that were already at a high level, I'm sure my bias is making me forget good examples though (I don't count Bryan). ORton did one of the all-time great putting overs when he made MArk Henry THE MAN in the twilight of his career. Orton had beaten all-comers for months on Smackdown and then lost clean as a whitstle in the HITC to Henry making him look like a superstar. Another good example is the salvage jobs he does for Cena, Cena squashed Kane in embarassing fashion in Jan-Feb 2012, Orton then loses clean to Kane at Mania to try and put a band-aid on the wound Cena caused. You completely discount the clean loss Orton took at Summerslam to help Reigns, that's because as pointed out Orton doesn't have much of a rub to give anymore. He's given it away. Since 2011 Orton has lost on PPV to The Miz, Punk, Christian, Henry, Barrett, Kane, Ziggler, Swagger, Reigns, Bryan, Bryan, Reigns, almost all of them squeaky clean.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,472
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 27, 2014 9:04:44 GMT -5
How many guys come out of feuds with Rey Misterio looking good?
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Post by joediego on Aug 27, 2014 9:25:35 GMT -5
How many guys come out of feuds with Rey Misterio looking good? He hasn't done anything in so long, but Punk, ADR and Cody Rhodes came out looking great from his most recent feuds (3 years ago).
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,472
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 27, 2014 9:34:11 GMT -5
Punk? You mean where Mysterio made Punk and his faction look like idiots week in and week out?
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 27, 2014 9:38:34 GMT -5
Punk? You mean where Mysterio made Punk and his faction look like idiots week in and week out? Yeah, that probably wasn't the best example. (Although it does prove that it's not impossible to recover from such a position. Look at where Punk was about a year later)
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Post by Neo: "The One" who CLAPS on Aug 27, 2014 9:45:54 GMT -5
How many guys come out of feuds with Rey Misterio looking good? He hasn't done anything in so long, but Punk, ADR and Cody Rhodes came out looking great from his most recent feuds (3 years ago). Remove Punk and I agree. Punk looked like a total fool.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Aug 27, 2014 16:43:50 GMT -5
Hogan tried to hurt people's pushes, but everyone got over inspite of him. Only Earthquake was really hurt by him, so it's out of the other two. HHHCareers he hampered: 1) RVD 2) Chris Jericho 3) CM Punk (for a short while) 4) Booker T 5) Kane 6) Goldberg 7) Randy Orton (always came off looking weak compared to HHH) 8) Jeff Hardy (got over in spite of HHH) John Cena1) Ryback 2) Wade Barrett 3) Bray Wyatt 4) Edge (you could argue he eventually helped make Edge, but taking the belt off him at the Rumble was a disgrace, though you could blame HHH for that for using Cena to make himself main event) 5) Dolph Ziggler 6) Umaga (Umaga's utterly superb dedication to that character kept him over after the Cena feud) 7) The Miz It's close, but HHH for me. You're gonna have to explain how Hogan killed Earthquake's push, since I remember Quake looking like a million bucks most of the time. Well ignoring the fact that Earthquake debuted as the hottest new heel and that rather than be built up to face the champion, Warrior, Hogan got to be the one to defeat him (undermining Warrior's reign and also doing what HHH does these days when he tries to get the rub from the new over talent like Punk, Bryan, Lesnar, Shield and syphon thier heat away), I don't think he made Earthquake look at all strong in that feud. He kicked out of his finisher and no-sold in like a douche (Rumble 91) and within a year Earthquake was relegated to a tag team guy with his singles career in the WWE over.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Aug 27, 2014 17:15:50 GMT -5
With Hogan, sue sometimes, like the Savage match at WM 5, he would no sell and Hulk up and win which bugged me. But Savage remained a huge star even after that. Savage was so strong going into that match that even after losing like a chump he was still a main event player.
WM9? Nope, even after he won the belt from Yoko in 5 minutes, Yoko beat him in a proper match, and was still made to look strong. Obviously he didn't harm Brets Career at all. He looked strong even when going up against Doink the clown. Doink didn't look weaker for losing, and Bret didn't look like he wasted his time beating a chump.
WM6 with Warrior? Warrior won that match cleanly. He then failed to connect as a true top event Superstar, which is why he dropped the belt. Feuding with Hogan didn't hurt his career though, he seemed like a threat the next WM, although it did bug me how he took the finishers from Savage and didn't lose.
How about in WCW?
There were some nonsenseical feuds, but we can safely say he didn't ruin Flair's career, nor Stings, no matter how hokey it was that he beat them. He didn't hurt Goldbergs, that was done by Goldberg and the booking itself. Maybe you can argue he hurt Savage a little more, but Savage is again one of those guys who always seems strong, no matter who he loses to.
Did he hurt Vader's career? Perhaps to an extent, but the real damage was done by WWE when Vader entered their organization.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 27, 2014 17:37:40 GMT -5
I would say Cena, but in modern day WWE, many careers barely get a chance to even get on the rails in the first instance.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,027
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Post by dav on Aug 27, 2014 18:06:25 GMT -5
You're gonna have to explain how Hogan killed Earthquake's push, since I remember Quake looking like a million bucks most of the time. Well ignoring the fact that Earthquake debuted as the hottest new heel and that rather than be built up to face the champion, Warrior, Hogan got to be the one to defeat him (undermining Warrior's reign and also doing what HHH does these days when he tries to get the rub from the new over talent like Punk, Bryan, Lesnar, Shield and syphon thier heat away), I don't think he made Earthquake look at all strong in that feud. He kicked out of his finisher and no-sold in like a douche (Rumble 91) and within a year Earthquake was relegated to a tag team guy with his singles career in the WWE over. Earthquake debuted by pretty much destroying Hogan in a segment and putting him out for a few months. Hogan made him look like a beast. He Hulked up against his finisher, but he did that with everyone and no one really came out looking the worse for it. It was his gimmick, the hero who gained his strength from the fans and went on to become victorious. And the tag division was much more important that it has been recently, he even did get a chance to go singles after WrestleMania X when he squashed Adam Bomb in short order. That was more of a burial than almost anything Hogan's done.
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Crimson
Hank Scorpio
Thank you DWade
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Post by Crimson on Aug 27, 2014 18:20:28 GMT -5
John Cena1) Ryback 2) Wade Barrett 3) Bray Wyatt 4) Edge (you could argue he eventually helped make Edge, but taking the belt off him at the Rumble was a disgrace, though you could blame HHH for that for using Cena to make himself main event) 5) Dolph Ziggler 6) Umaga (Umaga's utterly superb dedication to that character kept him over after the Cena feud) 7) The Miz It's close, but HHH for me. So much revisionism here it hurts. And yeah, there's a clear difference between "I think Cena should have put ______ over" and their career getting completely derailed from being involved with Cena. Guys like Ziggler and Sandow were jobbing before they "feuded" with Cena and went back to jobbing after. That's not a derailment.Guys like Ryback who literally was losing every major feud before he fault Cena to then lose to Cena too isn't derailed because of Cena. A guy like Edge who became a massively over heel by feuding with Cena is the polar opposite of getting derailed. The only person who arguably came out worst from being in an angle with Cena is Zach Ryder.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Aug 27, 2014 20:21:41 GMT -5
You're gonna have to explain how Hogan killed Earthquake's push, since I remember Quake looking like a million bucks most of the time. Well ignoring the fact that Earthquake debuted as the hottest new heel and that rather than be built up to face the champion, Warrior, Hogan got to be the one to defeat him (undermining Warrior's reign and also doing what HHH does these days when he tries to get the rub from the new over talent like Punk, Bryan, Lesnar, Shield and syphon thier heat away), I don't think he made Earthquake look at all strong in that feud. He kicked out of his finisher and no-sold in like a douche (Rumble 91) and within a year Earthquake was relegated to a tag team guy with his singles career in the WWE over. No sold like a douche.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
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Half Man-Half Amazing
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Post by SAJ Forth on Aug 27, 2014 22:11:57 GMT -5
There's a reason Undertaker left for SmackDown.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
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Post by schma on Aug 28, 2014 0:10:19 GMT -5
I would argue that Ryback wasn't destroyed by Cena alone. Punk and Cena destroyed Ryback, though that was more crappy booking than anything. Cena didn't destroy Sandow, the bookers haveing Sandow choose to face the Face of the Company who always overcomes the odds in a match instead of cashing in ruined Sandow, particularly with the way they've booked him since.
However, Trips managed something neither WCW Hogan nor Cena ever did. He buried 5 careers in one feud. Well him and Shawn. They destroyed the Spirit Squad. Only one of the five has managed to last in WWE at all. That's pretty nuts.
People rarely come out of a Big Show feud elevated though. They often end up looking like chumps whether he's the face or heel and as someone else mentioned, he's single handedly taken out stables.
90s Shawn Michaels is a good one for derailments in a few cases. Tatanka definitely suffered as a result of shenanigans from Shawn.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 28, 2014 4:34:39 GMT -5
Hmm that quote earlier in thread makes me think Orton is in contention, Cody, Ted Jr, Kofi, Barrett and The New Nexus are the obvious examples (although many of them were going nowhere anyway). Even further up the card I think he's damaged Christian, Ziggler and especially The Big Show after their awful WWE title feud. I'm also of the opinion he drags people down even when putting them over (Roman Reigns) but that's not a full derail. Unlike the others mentioned I'm struggling to think of anybody that's really benefited from beating him in one-on-one competition other than people that were already at a high level, I'm sure my bias is making me forget good examples though (I don't count Bryan). ORton did one of the all-time great putting overs when he made MArk Henry THE MAN in the twilight of his career. Orton had beaten all-comers for months on Smackdown and then lost clean as a whitstle in the HITC to Henry making him look like a superstar. Another good example is the salvage jobs he does for Cena, Cena squashed Kane in embarassing fashion in Jan-Feb 2012, Orton then loses clean to Kane at Mania to try and put a band-aid on the wound Cena caused. You completely discount the clean loss Orton took at Summerslam to help Reigns, that's because as pointed out Orton doesn't have much of a rub to give anymore. He's given it away. Since 2011 Orton has lost on PPV to The Miz, Punk, Christian, Henry, Barrett, Kane, Ziggler, Swagger, Reigns, Bryan, Bryan, Reigns, almost all of them squeaky clean. I cannot "like" this enough times. I can't believe Orton has even been brought up. Orton puts everybody over and even when he wins, makes them look like stars. His performance at Mania 30 for Daniel Bryan was nothing short of selfless.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 28, 2014 4:40:59 GMT -5
ORton did one of the all-time great putting overs when he made MArk Henry THE MAN in the twilight of his career. Orton had beaten all-comers for months on Smackdown and then lost clean as a whitstle in the HITC to Henry making him look like a superstar. Another good example is the salvage jobs he does for Cena, Cena squashed Kane in embarassing fashion in Jan-Feb 2012, Orton then loses clean to Kane at Mania to try and put a band-aid on the wound Cena caused. You completely discount the clean loss Orton took at Summerslam to help Reigns, that's because as pointed out Orton doesn't have much of a rub to give anymore. He's given it away. Since 2011 Orton has lost on PPV to The Miz, Punk, Christian, Henry, Barrett, Kane, Ziggler, Swagger, Reigns, Bryan, Bryan, Reigns, almost all of them squeaky clean. I cannot "like" this enough times. I can't believe Orton has even been brought up. Orton puts everybody over and even when he wins, makes them look like stars. His performance at Mania 30 for Daniel Bryan was nothing short of selfless. Orton doesn't have the pull to intentionally be selfless anymore. WWE is just too afraid to book him to do anything of consequence out of the fear of him getting a third wellness strike. That's why his entire WWE Title reign had him seemingly at odds with The Authority, so he could easily be written out with a storyline betrayal by Trips and Steph if it came down to it.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 28, 2014 4:41:51 GMT -5
I remember Swagger winning clean against Orton,right after he cashed mitb.
Man,Orton made him look amazing.Then Big Show came in.
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Post by slaughterama on Aug 28, 2014 4:44:36 GMT -5
Cena is THE GUY, and rarely does anyone get over on him. And whether it's his doing, or Vince's, anyone that seems to get on any sort of roll organically, ultimately gets put in a program with him, and he is always the one getting booked as the clear benefactor at the end. That he doesn't have the ability, or desire, to consistently build his opponents up in his promos makes matters worse. For every 5 minute promo he cuts where he takes his challenger seriously, it still all about him and how he'll overcome the odds. Other than that 5 minute promo in his "super serious" tone, you get 30 minutes worth of him cutting up his opponent, photo shops, and poop jokes. With the undercard being tired and constantly held back, it sticks out even more. I don't think the problem has anything directly to do with Cena. It's not that no one gets over on them. It's that because nothing else aside from his feuds (or the title feuds when he isn't involved with them) are booked to be important, once the opponent leaves a Cena program, lose or arguably if they even win the feud, they're left doing nothing. If Punk were still around or Bryan were healthy, then said heel could just be moved on to a feud with one of them where they can maintain some semblance of importance. But since Cena is the be all end all and there are no other big time programs to feed a wrestler into post-Cena, everything else just looks like a step down or a demotion. Either they're having random "get them on the card" feuds with guys like Sheamus, Orton, Kane, Ziggler, Big Show or Miz, or they're doing Wheel of Aggression shit steamrolling the midcard because they're elevated now due to working with Cena so Creative has to still pretend they're a big deal even though they've lost interest. Agreed. And that is pretty much their biggest flaw with Cena. Back in Hogan's run, he wasn't on Wrestling Challenge or Superstars every week mocking whoever he was feuding with in a promo to start the show, then destroying someone trying to move up the card in the main event. Those were 1 hour shows where they would push along 4 or 5 different storylines each week. There was energy and focus on creating interesting characters and storylines to go alongside with whatever Hogan was doing. Hogan, and his current storyline, was obviously the biggest deal, but they never really hammered you over the head with it. They didn't need to. After 10 years of the EXACT SAME THING with Cena, it would be nice to see them at least attempt a "less is more" approach with his storylines. Or at least, move the majority of his act to SmackDown or Main Event and try and elevate and create more interesting feuds and characters on Raw. Wishful thinking, I guess.
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