Cesaro, Bray and one other guy

[mrjl]

For people talking about how Bray is done after what Cena did to him and wondering why Cesaro has a title match after a losing streak I would like to remind some people about how quickly some things can change in WWE

Just a couple months ago Jack Swagger was being embarrassed by Adam Rose. Now he's one of the most over guys on the roster, getting protected losses whenever he loses and getting frequent wins when he's not feuding with someone

[mrbananagrabber]

From being World Champion to feuding with Bo Dallas. Score.

[mrjl]

Aug 26, 2014 20:54:26 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

From being World Champion to feuding with Bo Dallas. Score.

please, Jack Swagger's World Title run was him at his worst

[Mayonnaise]

Aug 26, 2014 20:54:26 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

From being World Champion to feuding with Bo Dallas. Score.

Major push to failure is pretty much Swagger' lot in WWE. Pushed hard to start ECW, jobber than looked to be fired, wins MITB and the WHC, then back to being a nothing, pushed as the great white us hope and now looks to be trending down again. It is why using him as an example as to why wins and losses/booking doesn't matter is crap, IMO. He's actually the key argument for them being important.

[Deleted]

At this point having a losing streak is probably better for your career than being anywhere near the US title is.

Also, we just got this match on PPV a few months ago so it's not like Cesaro's suddenly higher up than he's ever been, he's just where he was several months ago except now no one cares about him, he doesn't have a manager, and his music's worse.

[FAR5222]

Sandow is more depressing than Swagger. Swagger has had a laughable career until Zeb and Cesaro were paired with him. Swagger was repackaged at least 3 times since his time in the company. Sandow has been all but down hill since Summerslam 2013. Sandow has charisma while Swagger lacks it.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

....yeah, and also sometimes people really do get squashed and then they do get depushed and never recover. Sometimes things happen. What's your point?

[mrjl]

Aug 26, 2014 20:59:15 GMT -5 Mayonnaise said:

Aug 26, 2014 20:54:26 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

From being World Champion to feuding with Bo Dallas. Score.

Major push to failure is pretty much Swagger' lot in WWE. Pushed hard to start ECW, jobber than looked to be fired, wins MITB and the WHC, then back to being a nothing, pushed as the great white us hope and now looks to be trending down again. It is why using him as an example as to why wins and losses/booking doesn't matter is crap, IMO. He's actually the key argument for them being important.

he gets over again. That's the point.

[mrjl]

Aug 26, 2014 21:01:10 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

At this point having a losing streak is probably better for your career than being anywhere near the US title is.

Also, we just got this match on PPV a few months ago so it's not like Cesaro's suddenly higher up than he's ever been, he's just where he was several months ago except now no one cares about him, he doesn't have a manager, and his music's worse.

his manager hurt him.

I'm hoping they bring back all the trappings of his previous US title run for this including music

[Mayonnaise]

Aug 26, 2014 21:15:55 GMT -5 mrjl said:

Aug 26, 2014 20:59:15 GMT -5 Mayonnaise said:

Major push to failure is pretty much Swagger' lot in WWE. Pushed hard to start ECW, jobber than looked to be fired, wins MITB and the WHC, then back to being a nothing, pushed as the great white us hope and now looks to be trending down again. It is why using him as an example as to why wins and losses/booking doesn't matter is crap, IMO. He's actually the key argument for them being important.

he gets over again. That's the point.

He shouldn't have to "get over again". The guy is a 2 time world champion, held the US title and is a former MITB winner, the fact he had to get over again is a damned joke. If WWE were at all consistent he'd have been over to start with and Rusev facing him would have meant a lot more than it does now. Rusev beating a guy with Swagger's credentials should have been huge but instead he took a step up from meaningless jobber to beat a popular jobber. 

[Sephiroth]

Cesaro feuding with Sheamus for the US title is what should have happened when he was with Heyman

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

As someone who made a crack about how goofy it is that Cesaro has, seemingly out of nowhere, leap-frogged a bunch of people to be one of the top contenders for the US title, that's kinda ignoring the point.

Let's pretend this is all real for a second since, at the end of the day, that's the idea, right? These are real people in a real company competing in real competitive contests to see who's the best? How is Cesaro even in the running for a title shot? He's been on a losing streak for months, won a single match against an injured Swagger and was all of a sudden catapulted to being, at worst, the #2 seed in the title hunt. What reason is there for him getting a shot outside of "well, this shit is all fake anyway?" It's an issue of consistency. Guys are just put in contender matches for no real rhyme or reason. It's not even a hard thing to address. You have a guy win a bunch of matches, you give said guy a title shot. Keep it simple.

[mrjl]

Aug 26, 2014 21:38:59 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

As someone who made a crack about how goofy it is that Cesaro has, seemingly out of nowhere, leap-frogged a bunch of people to be one of the top contenders for the US title, that's kinda ignoring the point.

Let's pretend this is all real for a second since, at the end of the day, that's the idea, right? These are real people in a real company competing in real competitive contests to see who's the best? How is Cesaro even in the running for a title shot? He's been on a losing streak for months, won a single match against an injured Swagger and was all of a sudden catapulted to being, at worst, the #2 seed in the title hunt. What reason is there for him getting a shot outside of "well, this shit is all fake anyway?" It's an issue of consistency. Guys are just put in contender matches for no real rhyme or reason. It's not even a hard thing to address. You have a guy win a bunch of matches, you give said guy a title shot. Keep it simple.

in team sports anyone can beat anyone, and as far as I know in boxing if someone hasn't been given a title shot by the sanctioning body boxers can fight scrubs occasionally to make themselves look good, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way in MMA.

And Cesaro was put in the contendership match because he got in Sheamus' face basically

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Aug 26, 2014 21:38:59 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

As someone who made a crack about how goofy it is that Cesaro has, seemingly out of nowhere, leap-frogged a bunch of people to be one of the top contenders for the US title, that's kinda ignoring the point.

Let's pretend this is all real for a second since, at the end of the day, that's the idea, right? These are real people in a real company competing in real competitive contests to see who's the best? How is Cesaro even in the running for a title shot? He's been on a losing streak for months, won a single match against an injured Swagger and was all of a sudden catapulted to being, at worst, the #2 seed in the title hunt. What reason is there for him getting a shot outside of "well, this shit is all fake anyway?" It's an issue of consistency. Guys are just put in contender matches for no real rhyme or reason. It's not even a hard thing to address. You have a guy win a bunch of matches, you give said guy a title shot. Keep it simple.

This. It'd be like if someone got the standard 3 losses in UFC, then rather than Dana White shitcanning 'em he goes "HAVE A TITLE MATCH!" because they called the champ a douche.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Aug 27, 2014 6:25:36 GMT -5 "Gentleman" AJ Powell said:

Aug 26, 2014 21:38:59 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

As someone who made a crack about how goofy it is that Cesaro has, seemingly out of nowhere, leap-frogged a bunch of people to be one of the top contenders for the US title, that's kinda ignoring the point.

Let's pretend this is all real for a second since, at the end of the day, that's the idea, right? These are real people in a real company competing in real competitive contests to see who's the best? How is Cesaro even in the running for a title shot? He's been on a losing streak for months, won a single match against an injured Swagger and was all of a sudden catapulted to being, at worst, the #2 seed in the title hunt. What reason is there for him getting a shot outside of "well, this shit is all fake anyway?" It's an issue of consistency. Guys are just put in contender matches for no real rhyme or reason. It's not even a hard thing to address. You have a guy win a bunch of matches, you give said guy a title shot. Keep it simple.

This. It'd be like if someone got the standard 3 losses in UFC, then rather than Dana White shitcanning 'em he goes "HAVE A TITLE MATCH!" because they called the champ a douche.

Part of me wishes there was an MMA promotion that worked this way.

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Aug 27, 2014 6:43:35 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Aug 27, 2014 6:25:36 GMT -5 "Gentleman" AJ Powell said:

This. It'd be like if someone got the standard 3 losses in UFC, then rather than Dana White shitcanning 'em he goes "HAVE A TITLE MATCH!" because they called the champ a douche.

Part of me wishes there was an MMA promotion that worked this way.

The first champion is crowned after shouting "YOU'RE A WIENER!" before anyone else can insult each other.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Aug 27, 2014 5:21:47 GMT -5 mrjl said:

Aug 26, 2014 21:38:59 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

As someone who made a crack about how goofy it is that Cesaro has, seemingly out of nowhere, leap-frogged a bunch of people to be one of the top contenders for the US title, that's kinda ignoring the point.

Let's pretend this is all real for a second since, at the end of the day, that's the idea, right? These are real people in a real company competing in real competitive contests to see who's the best? How is Cesaro even in the running for a title shot? He's been on a losing streak for months, won a single match against an injured Swagger and was all of a sudden catapulted to being, at worst, the #2 seed in the title hunt. What reason is there for him getting a shot outside of "well, this shit is all fake anyway?" It's an issue of consistency. Guys are just put in contender matches for no real rhyme or reason. It's not even a hard thing to address. You have a guy win a bunch of matches, you give said guy a title shot. Keep it simple.

in team sports anyone can beat anyone, and as far as I know in boxing if someone hasn't been given a title shot by the sanctioning body boxers can fight scrubs occasionally to make themselves look good, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way in MMA.

And Cesaro was put in the contendership match because he got in Sheamus' face basically

I know that in sports, the idea is that anyone can win. That's not my point. My point is, what exactly is the critiera WWE is using to pick out challengers for these titles?

You are right about boxers beating up nobodies (tomato cans) that are basically the real sport version of jobbers in order to make themselves good. Again though, that doesn't address my point. Why is Cesaro considered a title contender when he won like one match in the last two months on TV? Since we are talking about boxing, if some Welterweight goof were to randomly walk up to Floyd Mayweather and get in a confrontation with him, he wouldn't just move up in the rankings. He would have to collect some actual wins to prove that he deserves a shot at the champ. Mayweather's next fight is against a guy by the name of Marcos Maidana. Maidana earned the shot by not only beating Mayweather's "little brah" Adrian Broner but by having a close match with Mayweather earlier in the year where he almost beat him despite being an underdog. Maidana proved that he is one of the best in the division today so he gets another title shot. That's how it should work. You win matches, you get title shot.

 It'd be one thing if Cesaro was tearing through jobbers on the way to getting this shot but he didn't. He just got a title shot because WWE said so.

[Tessmachers-Ass-Fan]

Bring back the soaring eagle!

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

Aug 27, 2014 12:17:10 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

Aug 27, 2014 5:21:47 GMT -5 mrjl said:

in team sports anyone can beat anyone, and as far as I know in boxing if someone hasn't been given a title shot by the sanctioning body boxers can fight scrubs occasionally to make themselves look good, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way in MMA.

And Cesaro was put in the contendership match because he got in Sheamus' face basically

I know that in sports, the idea is that anyone can win. That's not my point. My point is, what exactly is the critiera WWE is using to pick out challengers for these titles?

You are right about boxers beating up nobodies (tomato cans) that are basically the real sport version of jobbers in order to make themselves good. Again though, that doesn't address my point. Why is Cesaro considered a title contender when he won like one match in the last two months on TV? Since we are talking about boxing, if some Welterweight goof were to randomly walk up to Floyd Mayweather and get in a confrontation with him, he wouldn't just move up in the rankings. He would have to collect some actual wins to prove that he deserves a shot at the champ. Mayweather's next fight is against a guy by the name of Marcos Maidana. Maidana earned the shot by not only beating Mayweather's "little brah" Adrian Broner but by having a close match with Mayweather earlier in the year where he almost beat him despite being an underdog. Maidana proved that he is one of the best in the division today so he gets another title shot. That's how it should work. You win matches, you get title shot.

 It'd be one thing if Cesaro was tearing through jobbers on the way to getting this shot but he didn't. He just got a title shot because WWE said so.

The simple fact is that midcard titles do not make sense in the status quo. In theory, people should earn their title shots by winning matches. But this is not the case in the current WWE. For one, a lot of guys who win matches never even bother with the IC or US titles because they see it as beneath them. Seth Rollins deserves a US title shot more than Cesaro, but he is not challenging for it. It makes the titles look like crap when certain guys just ignore it. Why hasn't WWE ever given Bray title shots after having wins over Bryan and Cena? Either WWE's system sucks or these guys do not want these titles. Either way is bad in my opinion. Another issue is that there is really no differentiation between the two midcard titles. When does someone earn shot at one versus the other? A solution I always have liked is to just have one midcard title and to limit it to guys who have never won a world title (or WWE title if you want to make it slightly more open) and give kayfabe reasons for why guys would want it. It could be an increase in pay, guaranteed PPV matches, symbolic of future success, etc. 

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Aug 27, 2014 12:17:10 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

Aug 27, 2014 5:21:47 GMT -5 mrjl said:

in team sports anyone can beat anyone, and as far as I know in boxing if someone hasn't been given a title shot by the sanctioning body boxers can fight scrubs occasionally to make themselves look good, wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way in MMA.

And Cesaro was put in the contendership match because he got in Sheamus' face basically

I know that in sports, the idea is that anyone can win. That's not my point. My point is, what exactly is the critiera WWE is using to pick out challengers for these titles?

You are right about boxers beating up nobodies (tomato cans) that are basically the real sport version of jobbers in order to make themselves good. Again though, that doesn't address my point. Why is Cesaro considered a title contender when he won like one match in the last two months on TV? Since we are talking about boxing, if some Welterweight goof were to randomly walk up to Floyd Mayweather and get in a confrontation with him, he wouldn't just move up in the rankings. He would have to collect some actual wins to prove that he deserves a shot at the champ. Mayweather's next fight is against a guy by the name of Marcos Maidana. Maidana earned the shot by not only beating Mayweather's "little brah" Adrian Broner but by having a close match with Mayweather earlier in the year where he almost beat him despite being an underdog. Maidana proved that he is one of the best in the division today so he gets another title shot. That's how it should work. You win matches, you get title shot.

 It'd be one thing if Cesaro was tearing through jobbers on the way to getting this shot but he didn't. He just got a title shot because WWE said so.

Exactly. Daniel Cormier and Alexander Gustaffson haven't gotten shots at Jon Jones by mouthing off. Cormier proved himself in the Heavyweight division against people much bigger than him before moving down, and Gustaffson worked his way up to facing Jones and taking him to the limit.

I mean, by WWE logic, I could fly to Albuquerque, walk into Greg Jackson's gym, call Jon Jones an uppity c*** and get a fight against him at the next UFC PPV.

And subsequently get my face scraped off by his elbow.