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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 13:22:54 GMT -5
Warrior and WCW are specifically who I was referring to there. Your point is that Heenan would have talked trash about them without any incentive from WWE, which proves that he wasn't doing it to suck up to WWE. I agree partially, but Heenan has proved over the years that a story doesn't have to be true in order for him to repeat it 1000 times. If WWE is writing him a check to tell some stories about how WWE is just so much better than WCW, he'll tell them. If WWE had gone out of business and WCW was the one writing checks to performers to talk about WWE's shortcomings, Heenan would have told the stories and taken the checks. I'm not necessarily trashing him for that, because most performers would fall into that same category. To your second point, WWE is sports entertainment. They've been exclusively using that phrase for a while now, unless they absolutely have to use the word "wrestle" such as in "WrestleMania". WWE itself doesn't want to be confused for "wrestling". Heenan was merely acknowledging that separation, but choosing his words very carefully so as not to sound like he was bashing it. Again, if Heenan wanted to call Vince out and bury sports entertainment... he would not be so careful with his wording. And no one outside of WWE calls it sports entertainment. Fans, casual observers, media, etc. It's always wrestling. I'm not saying he was sitting there thinking that WWE's product was the worst damn thing in the world, but I think that's clearly a knock. I'm also curious about what untrue stories were repeated a thousand times. It will always be "wrestling" to everyone so long as it's half-naked men pretending to fight each other. It's WWE that has been trying for years to rebrand itself, because Vince has always been ashamed to be a plain ol' rasslin' promoter. Heenan was saying that he misses the days of plain ol' rasslin', and that he believes it will make a comeback. I don't remember every story that I've heard Heenan tell. What I do remember is holding him in the highest regard, then losing a considerable amount of respect for him over the years after hearing them. Many of his stories did not ring true to me, partially because of how much vitriol was in the telling. The Warrior DVD hurt my respect for him considerably, then his shoots on Schiavone certainly didn't help. One thing I remember him telling was how Warrior had no respect for the business and how Andre hated working with him. Years later I heard Warrior tell the story of how grateful he was to Andre for putting him over, letting him bodyslam him, etc, and then made the point that Andre would never have put him over had it not been his choice. Schiavone also had the class to apologize to Heenan for how he'd wronged him, but then subsequently denied a lot of the more sensational accusations that Bobby had made against him. So yeah, repeatedly I've seen Bobby try to bury people, then those people come back and act much classier about it than Bobby did. It's fine if you want to believe all of Bobby's stories. I just don't. I still hold him in the highest regard as an entertainer.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Sept 13, 2014 13:35:27 GMT -5
And no one outside of WWE calls it sports entertainment. Fans, casual observers, media, etc. It's always wrestling. I'm not saying he was sitting there thinking that WWE's product was the worst damn thing in the world, but I think that's clearly a knock. I'm also curious about what untrue stories were repeated a thousand times. It will always be "wrestling" to everyone so long as it's half-naked men pretending to fight each other. It's WWE that has been trying for years to rebrand itself, because Vince has always been ashamed to be a plain ol' rasslin' promoter. Heenan was saying that he misses the days of plain ol' rasslin', and that he believes it will make a comeback. I don't remember every story that I've heard Heenan tell. What I do remember is holding him in the highest regard, then losing a considerable amount of respect for him over the years after hearing them. Many of his stories did not ring true to me, partially because of how much vitriol was in the telling. The Warrior DVD hurt my respect for him considerably, then his shoots on Schiavone certainly didn't help. One thing I remember him telling was how Warrior had no respect for the business and how Andre hated working with him. Years later I heard Warrior tell the story of how grateful he was to Andre for putting him over, letting him bodyslam him, etc, and then made the point that Andre would never have put him over had it not been his choice. Schiavone also had the class to apologize to Heenan for how he'd wronged him, but then subsequently denied a lot of the more sensational accusations that Bobby had made against him. So yeah, repeatedly I've seen Bobby try to bury people, then those people come back and act much classier about it than Bobby did. It's fine if you want to believe all of Bobby's stories. I just don't. I still hold him in the highest regard as an entertainer. I'm not saying I believe every story. I wasn't there, I have no way of knowing one way or the other. I think a lot of his problems with Schiavone weren't really Tony being an ass so much as misunderstandings that easily could have been resolved if they had been more open to communication and the general environment had been less hectic. As for Warrior, his own comments and actions over the years (as well as those of most of the people who worked with him) make those stories pretty easy to believe, but who knows for sure besides those who were actually there. The vast majority of his comments about Warrior were done for comedic affect anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 13:41:06 GMT -5
It will always be "wrestling" to everyone so long as it's half-naked men pretending to fight each other. It's WWE that has been trying for years to rebrand itself, because Vince has always been ashamed to be a plain ol' rasslin' promoter. Heenan was saying that he misses the days of plain ol' rasslin', and that he believes it will make a comeback. I don't remember every story that I've heard Heenan tell. What I do remember is holding him in the highest regard, then losing a considerable amount of respect for him over the years after hearing them. Many of his stories did not ring true to me, partially because of how much vitriol was in the telling. The Warrior DVD hurt my respect for him considerably, then his shoots on Schiavone certainly didn't help. One thing I remember him telling was how Warrior had no respect for the business and how Andre hated working with him. Years later I heard Warrior tell the story of how grateful he was to Andre for putting him over, letting him bodyslam him, etc, and then made the point that Andre would never have put him over had it not been his choice. Schiavone also had the class to apologize to Heenan for how he'd wronged him, but then subsequently denied a lot of the more sensational accusations that Bobby had made against him. So yeah, repeatedly I've seen Bobby try to bury people, then those people come back and act much classier about it than Bobby did. It's fine if you want to believe all of Bobby's stories. I just don't. I still hold him in the highest regard as an entertainer. I'm not saying I believe every story. I wasn't there, I have no way of knowing one way or the other. I think a lot of his problems with Schiavone weren't really Tony being an ass so much as misunderstandings that easily could have been resolved if they had been more open to communication and the general environment had been less hectic. As for Warrior, his own comments and actions over the years (as well as those of most of the people who worked with him) make those stories pretty easy to believe, but who knows for sure besides those who were actually there. The vast majority of his comments about Warrior were done for comedic affect anyway. I agree. We weren't there so there's no way we can say for sure. It's all a matter of what rings true when you hear it. I don't have a problem with the stories about Warrior that are irrefutable facts. What I hate is when guys bash his promos, his intelligence, or say that his whole act was running to the ring and shaking the ropes. It's that kind of thing that makes them lose credibility to me, because they are 100% based on bias and easily refutable. There's enough irrefutable facts about Warrior that stand on their own without needing to embellish.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Sept 13, 2014 14:01:18 GMT -5
He went from working with one of his best friends, and someone universally loved by everyone, Gorilla Monsoon, to working with someone universally hated by everyone, Tony Schiavone Go listen to Jim Ross' podcast with Tony Schivanoe from a few weeks ago. Schivanoe clearly feels badly about what happened with Heenan latter in their run but I don't think they had issues before 1998 or 1999. Beides that I don't think Schivanoe was ever universally hated. It seems the "hatred" between him and Ross was played up more than it really existed.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Sept 13, 2014 14:06:05 GMT -5
For the record, Heenan and Tenay have mentioned their issue(s) with Schivonoe stem from the night of Starrcade '98. Allegedly, they went out drinking after the event and Heenan and Tenay couldn't believe they broke the streak and began to be fearful of WCW's decision making. This irked Tony who called them both "paranoid sons of bitches" and they all got into a huge shouting match/argument that their relationships never recovered from.
January '99 is a marked difference in Heenan from, say, November '98, and it only got worse from there. Even as someone who appreciates Heenan's '95-'98 work more than most, '99 you can tell the announcers just weren't gelling and the chemistry began becoming super forced.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 15:07:08 GMT -5
But, who's sad? Is he on? Yo Jimmy hit me with that Bobby H.
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Post by Ryushinku on Sept 15, 2014 3:28:10 GMT -5
For the record, Heenan and Tenay have mentioned their issue(s) with Schivonoe stem from the night of Starrcade '98. Allegedly, they went out drinking after the event and Heenan and Tenay couldn't believe they broke the streak and began to be fearful of WCW's decision making. This irked Tony who called them both "paranoid sons of bitches" and they all got into a huge shouting match/argument that their relationships never recovered from. January '99 is a marked difference in Heenan from, say, November '98, and it only got worse from there. Even as someone who appreciates Heenan's '95-'98 work more than most, '99 you can tell the announcers just weren't gelling and the chemistry began becoming super forced. That I find more believable. Heenan certainly had off days before then, but I didn't feel he really gave up altogether until past the Nitro peak, instead of dogging it throughout his run as often suggested.
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Post by Paul E. Funk on Sept 15, 2014 13:02:47 GMT -5
But, who's sad? Is he on? Yo Jimmy hit me with that Bobby H. That was my first thought, but I like the Heenan reference too.
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Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Sept 15, 2014 23:37:31 GMT -5
The only thing I remember about this match having not seen it in years is Schiavone going crazy about Hogan hitting, "THE BIG BUTT!"
And a leg butt
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