Lesnar is one hell of a babyface

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

He saved his defenseless friend, beat his rival in a fair fight and only got beat on because of a cheap shot from Cena.

[Deleted]

Cena's really become the monster Heyman said he'd become all night. Threatening and abducting Heyman, forcing Lesnar to save him, got his ass taken down by Lesnar in a fair fight and yet he goes ahead and attacks Lesnar from behind. Shit. If you had the whole thing muted to a new viewer, they'd assume Lesnar was the face.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Sept 15, 2014 21:22:45 GMT -5 @kn said:

Cena's really become the monster Heyman said he'd become all night. Threatening and abducting Heyman, forcing Lesnar to save him, got his ass taken down by Lesnar in a fair fight and yet he goes ahead and attacks Lesnar from behind. Shit. If you had the whole thing muted to a new viewer, they'd assume Lesnar was the face.

A shame that next Monday that won't matter at all.

[angryfan]

But guys, Heyman's fat and ECW died, and Brock, um...he didn't cheat or have interference when he beat Cena, and beat Taker clean, but he left WWE so he's a heel. He also beat up Miz and Triple H, but he DID beat up Shawn Micheals so that's gotta make him a heel.

Seriously, if I had any faith in them, I'd say they were building to a double turn. But, I don't, so we'll either see "overcome the odds" or more "Brock cheated by not cheating because everyone expected Heyman to help him cheat but since it was clean it was like cheating".

[mysterydriver]

I find Brock's loyalty and friendship to Heyman to be pretty much the best thing from a character standpoint. I'm to the point that I assume if someone abused Heyman in a bad way Brock would appear the next Raw, destroy everything, and end the show sacrificing said person with a dozen F5s.

[ayumidah]

Sept 15, 2014 21:50:52 GMT -5 mysterydriver said:

I find Brock's loyalty and friendship to Heyman to be pretty much the best thing from a character standpoint. I'm to the point that I assume if someone abused Heyman in a bad way Brock would appear the next Raw, destroy everything, and end the show sacrificing said person with a dozen F5s.

I'd pay (9.99?!) to see that. I miss good relationships between managers and wrestlers.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

At least Brock is there for his friends

What does Cena do every time his friends are beaten up?

NOTHING.

Ryback was right and Reigns is following the same path...

[SEAN CARLESS]

Sept 15, 2014 21:25:25 GMT -5 Kevin Hamilton said:

Sept 15, 2014 21:22:45 GMT -5 @kn said:

Cena's really become the monster Heyman said he'd become all night. Threatening and abducting Heyman, forcing Lesnar to save him, got his ass taken down by Lesnar in a fair fight and yet he goes ahead and attacks Lesnar from behind. Shit. If you had the whole thing muted to a new viewer, they'd assume Lesnar was the face.

A shame that next Monday that won't matter at all.

This. Heyman had a fascinating view on how the Cena arc *should* go on Austin's podcast a few weeks ago, rife with indecision and a moral inability to go back to being a colorful, smiling good guy after what he'll need to do to beat Brock --- but this is the logical progression of a story as told rationally and realistically. The sad truth is that Cena is Vince's insane self-morality avatar, and he sees not the glaring holes and hypocrisies in the character, because they are his own literal thought processes taken form.

Next week, win,lose or draw, Cena will still be the same inconsistent annoying tool he always is.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Lesnar is the heel because it wasn't enough for him to just beat Cena in a match. Otherwise he would've just mercifully squashed him on the spot and ended it. But Lesnar's intentions going into the match were to beat the shit out of Cena until he decided he didn't want to beat the shit out of him anymore.

Cena doesn't want revenge on Brock for beating him in a match. He wants revenge on Brock for going out of his way to beat him to a pulp and almost destroying his livelihood as a wrestler.

[Prince Petty]

Sept 16, 2014 5:05:02 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Lesnar is the heel because it wasn't enough for him to just beat Cena in a match. Otherwise he would've just mercifully squashed him on the spot and ended it. But Lesnar's intentions going into the match were to beat the shit out of Cena until he decided he didn't want to beat the shit out of him anymore.

Cena doesn't want revenge on Brock for beating him in a match. He wants revenge on Brock for going out of his way to beat him to a pulp and almost destroying his livelihood as a wrestler.

Not really. Brock repeatedly told Cena he was willing to stop. He gave him chance after chance to give up and Brock would have stopped there, and left the ring. If he'd wanted to beat the shit out of him, he could have done much more than a series of German Suplexes.

As for almost destroying his livelihood? How? Cena stayed at home for a week then returned, stronger than ever.

By any logical sense, Cena is the heel at the moment. Using underhand tactics and threatening those who are clearly no challenge for him, to try and gain an advantage over the other man. Is this the narrative? Cena tried to fight fair and just couldn't measure up, so now he's going to cheat? Great example for the kids.

[Hobby Drifter]

Sept 15, 2014 21:50:52 GMT -5 mysterydriver said:

I find Brock's loyalty and friendship to Heyman to be pretty much the best thing from a character standpoint. I'm to the point that I assume if someone abused Heyman in a bad way Brock would appear the next Raw, destroy everything, and end the show sacrificing said person with a dozen F5s.

I said something like this right at the start of the CM Punk/Lesnar feud. That whole thing pretty much kicked off when Punk basically fired Heyman on screen. If I recall correctly, the sequence of events almost HAD to be as follows.

Punk fires Heyman.
Lesnar's kids see it on Raw, inform their father.
Brock jumps in his compact car, pops in a cassette tape of his theme music, and tears ass down the interstate.
Brock (literally) hops out of his car, hands said cassette tape to the dude in the truck, (literally) hops on the stage
And proceeds to BEAT THE HOLY HELL OUT OF THE GUY WHO HURT HIS FRIEND'S FEELINGS.

I love that about Brock. He's this ruthless ass-kicking machine...who has this genuine friendship with the dude who helped him out the most when he was just starting out as an adult. What did Lesnar do after winning the WWE Heavyweight Championship? Did he have a Coors? Maybe. Did he climb on top of his wife? Perhaps later. But FIRST? Went out for a nice steak dinner with his friend, Paul Heyman. That is both classy AND *sweet as hell*

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Sept 16, 2014 2:22:25 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

At least Brock is there for his friends

What does Cena do every time his friends are beaten up?

NOTHING.

Ryback was right and Reigns is following the same path...

Seriously. I mean, he might not like many people, but the people he does like, he looks after 'em. Cena's a shitty friend, as we've stated many times in the past.

Also, he played being pissed off way better than Cena does. Cena just looks grumpy when pissed, Lesnar came out wide eyed looking furious. It was awesome.

[.]

This is exactly what I thought.

Cena really came off as a big bully threatening Heyman and then getting others to bully him too.

Then Brock comes out and wrecks Cena to which Cena has to attack him from behind.

The issue here is seemingly a battle of Triple H wanting to book a truly dominate beast of a champion and Vince wanting to undermine it because he like the promoters before him can't fathom their golden boy being booked as second fiddle.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Sept 16, 2014 5:05:02 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Lesnar is the heel because it wasn't enough for him to just beat Cena in a match. Otherwise he would've just mercifully squashed him on the spot and ended it. But Lesnar's intentions going into the match were to beat the shit out of Cena until he decided he didn't want to beat the shit out of him anymore.

Cena doesn't want revenge on Brock for beating him in a match. He wants revenge on Brock for going out of his way to beat him to a pulp and almost destroying his livelihood as a wrestler.

"Stay down." "Give up."

He said those repeatedly to him. Cena didn't listen.

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2014 7:15:38 GMT -5 Kevin Hamilton said:

Sept 16, 2014 5:05:02 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Lesnar is the heel because it wasn't enough for him to just beat Cena in a match. Otherwise he would've just mercifully squashed him on the spot and ended it. But Lesnar's intentions going into the match were to beat the shit out of Cena until he decided he didn't want to beat the shit out of him anymore.

Cena doesn't want revenge on Brock for beating him in a match. He wants revenge on Brock for going out of his way to beat him to a pulp and almost destroying his livelihood as a wrestler.

"Stay down." "Give up."

He said those repeatedly to him. Cena didn't listen.

Pretty much. You can't be constantly insisting you'll take whatever someone throws at you, and then be pissed when someone gives you more than you can handle.

[Milkman Norm]

You know when they should have done this angle? After Heyman has to interfere to help Lesnar keep the title. That's why it worked with Punk after Summerslam 2013. Here Cena lost clean and Heyman did nothing. So why the hell is the hero going to harass and threaten the villain's side kick? Where's the nobility in that? But WWE doesn't think about those things because the seemingly view each segment as it's own stand alone piece where the only goal is to make people look "strong" or "cool" regardless of who it affects them in the overall angle.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2014 21:22:45 GMT -5 @kn said:

Cena's really become the monster Heyman said he'd become all night. Threatening and abducting Heyman, forcing Lesnar to save him, got his ass taken down by Lesnar in a fair fight and yet he goes ahead and attacks Lesnar from behind. Shit. If you had the whole thing muted to a new viewer, they'd assume Lesnar was the face.

In my eyes, Lesnar IS the face.

[Speedy Cerviche]

A part of me rather wants WWE to continue with Cena doing these rather cowardly, chickenshit heel things to Lesnar and Heyman whilst having the commentary team feverishly justify it all as Cena fighting back. Like, have Cena beat up Lesnar's mother for daring to give birth to him, or have him steal Brock's mail so he gets his utilities cut off. The dissonance between what's going on and the image the WWE would be trying to project would be absolutely wonderful to watch.

[Freddy BooJangles]

Sept 16, 2014 8:19:35 GMT -5 @therealoblivion said:

Sept 15, 2014 21:22:45 GMT -5 @kn said:

Cena's really become the monster Heyman said he'd become all night. Threatening and abducting Heyman, forcing Lesnar to save him, got his ass taken down by Lesnar in a fair fight and yet he goes ahead and attacks Lesnar from behind. Shit. If you had the whole thing muted to a new viewer, they'd assume Lesnar was the face.

In my eyes, Lesnar IS the face.

agreed

[angryfan]

Sept 16, 2014 3:25:58 GMT -5 SEAN CARLESS said:

Sept 15, 2014 21:25:25 GMT -5 Kevin Hamilton said:

A shame that next Monday that won't matter at all.

This. Heyman had a fascinating view on how the Cena arc *should* go on Austin's podcast a few weeks ago, rife with indecision and a moral inability to go back to being a colorful, smiling good guy after what he'll need to do to beat Brock --- but this is the logical progression of a story as told rationally and realistically. The sad truth is that Cena is Vince's insane self-morality avatar, and he sees not the glaring holes and hypocrisies in the character, because they are his own literal thought processes taken form.

Next week, win,lose or draw, Cena will still be the same inconsistent annoying tool he always is.

It's more than just moral ambiguity, though, it's straight up behavioral science. If I'm working with a client, and my client (ahem) wants to conquer a behavior and change it, then it takes a change in their approach. In this case, the question is what matters more? Does "Cena's belt" mean more than h is legacy? Does a "happy ending" for "his fans" drive him? If so, then that in and of itself is a standard motivator for behavioral change. If, however, the overriding focus is a different behavior (making his "real fans" happy), then the token object shouldn't matter as much. Nor, in fact, should "beating Brock's ass". Because if the behavior that drives him is being able to smile and wave while the kids cheer, then any match, even against Kofi, should be a good enough motivator because it gets the desired result.

Heyman was right, logic would dictate that a situation where everything is different dictates a different response. If the goal is "spoiler: Cena wins", and the arc told is that his standard behavior (don't cheat, always smile, be reassuring) failed him, then there HAS to be change in THAT behavior. Has to, not could be, not should be, has to. Otherwise, and I know it's wrestling but if he doesn't change any of those behaviors, wins anyway, and the announcers go with the narrative of, "See, Cena could have won last time, but he wasn't confident enough", then it becomes flat. It's still a "behavioral change", but since the goal is to leave with two strong characters instead of simply having one (Brock) fade away, "confidence" can't be the underlying motivator.

Having said that, that's exactly what they did with Rock/Cena II, so I would die of not surprised if they rehashed it, had Cena win, had Cena foil a cash-in by Seth thanks to Ambrose and/or Reigns, then "settled" it with a six man or regular tag match the next night where Cena "saved" whatever babyface helped him the night before to "prove his confidence".