Scottish Independence Referendum

[Psy]

A referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country will take place on Thursday, 18 September 2014.

This is a major world event, and as such has an official discussion thread here in the same vein as presidential elections. All discussion will be contained to this thread. It's recommended that you quote at least portions of posts you are replying to so it's clear which strand of conversation you are replying to.

This thread will not be open 24/7. It may close while you're in the middle of making a long, thought-out post. Be sure you save your posts (copy & paste into a blank document on your desktop if nothing else) if you don't want to lose them. This thread will be actively moderated and closed when no moderator is available to actively moderate it. Sadly, this does mean that some time zones, including those most affected by this referendum, might not have the same availability to discuss it here. I am sorry for that in advance. Political topics are very volatile and unfortunately have required this type of moderation in the past.

This is a serious topic and close to home for many of our posters. Jokes will likely be misinterpreted and in some cases might even be considered flamebaiting. If you can't comment without making jokes possibly at the expense of others or their political beliefs you should consider keeping those comments to yourself. This includes memes and such.

Absolutely no flaming of other posters will be tolerated. If you do, you'll be warned, suspended, and/or banned outright. If you do not feel you can contribute to this thread without attacking other people instead of the issues then you should remain silent here. This includes terms/nicknames like "Jocks" and such broad statements as "anyone who thinks _____ is an idiot".

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The following is courtesy of the second post:

This should clear up the probable confusion our foreign members always seem to get regarding the isssue.


The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is an island nation occuping the entire island of Great Britain and 1/6 of the island of Ireland.

People from Great Britain are British.

Within the United Kingdom exist four sub-divisions, normally called countries. They are akin to states in the U.S. Three of these are on the island of Great Britain.

These are:

England

Scotland

and Wales

The government is the Parliament in Westminister, London. However, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland all have their own devolved governments, who are in charge of local affairs.

The United Kingdom was created by the Acts of Union. The 1707 Act of Union resulted in the fusion of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England(Who shared a monarch) into the United Kingdom of Great Britain This was a union, Scotland was not owned by England, but rather, equal with it.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain merged with the Kingdom of Ireland in the 1801 Act of Union, resulting in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Following some messy political stuff in Ireland, this became the present day United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Many Scottish people feel they are under-represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom(Scotland elected one Conservative MP, but that is the party that is currently in power) Many, led by the Scottish National Party and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond, feel that Scotland would be best served as an independent nation, keeping the Queen, which would revert it to its state before the 1707 Act of Union.

They believe that Scotland has the ability to have a stable economy backed up by North Sea Oil Reserves.

However, an equally large group of Scots(The Better Together Campaign, featuring Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown) believe that Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom. They believe that Scotland's future would be too uncertain without the U.K - The North Sea Oil Reserves are only projected to last to 2050.

They also believe that the SNP hasn't provided answers on Scotland's future, such as the currency it will use(the SNP want to use the Pound Sterling, in a Currency Union. Westminster has said no.)

The SNP believe that the Better Together campagin is fearmongering on this, however.

The issue appears to be split 50/50, with many predicting a 51% 49% victory for whoever wins.

[Deleted]

If the mods could add this to the OP, that'd be swell.

This should clear up the probable confusion our foreign members always seem to get regarding the isssue.


The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is an island nation occuping the entire island of Great Britain and 1/6 of the island of Ireland.

People from Great Britain are British.

Within the United Kingdom exist four sub-divisions, normally called countries. They are akin to states in the U.S. Three of these are on the island of Great Britain.

These are:

England

Scotland

and Wales

The government is the Parliament in Westminister, London. However, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland all have their own devolved governments, who are in charge of local affairs.

The United Kingdom was created by the Acts of Union. The 1707 Act of Union resulted in the fusion of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England(Who shared a monarch) into the United Kingdom of Great Britain This was a union, Scotland was not owned by England, but rather, equal with it.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain merged with the Kingdom of Ireland in the 1801 Act of Union, resulting in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Following some messy political stuff in Ireland, this became the present day United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Many Scottish people feel they are under-represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom(Scotland elected one Conservative MP, but that is the party that is currently in power) Many, led by the Scottish National Party and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond, feel that Scotland would be best served as an independent nation, keeping the Queen, which would revert it to its state before the 1707 Act of Union.

They believe that Scotland has the ability to have a stable economy backed up by North Sea Oil Reserves.

However, an equally large group of Scots(The Better Together Campaign, featuring Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown) believe that Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom. They believe that Scotland's future would be too uncertain without the U.K - The North Sea Oil Reserves are only projected to last to 2050.

They also believe that the SNP hasn't provided answers on Scotland's future, such as the currency it will use(the SNP want to use the Pound Sterling, in a Currency Union. Westminster has said no.)

The SNP believe that the Better Together campagin is fearmongering on this, however.

The issue appears to be split 50/50, with many predicting a 51% 49% victory for whoever wins.

[thirteen3]

This should be good for the Scottish posters. All 6 of us.

I'm gonna go ahead and say I voted no.

[Square]

I would be interested to see what happens to the SNP if they get a no vote

[DiBiase is Good]

I love that the United Kingdom is just that, it is comprised of four very distinct nations all of which bring something unique to this country and I would be sad to see Scotland go.
That said, it's not my decision and if the Scottish people want independence then good luck to them.

[Eunös ✈]

I'm hoping that NO wins.

I visit Scotland quite regularly to go to Knockhill Race Track etc. would be ashame to see them go.

Me Brother lives in the Shetland Islands but as he isn't Scotish I'm not sure he will get a say.

[kevthetree]

Have voted yes. Feel that even with even with the uncertainties (many of which will exist with a no vote anyway such as EU membership) it's an unbelievable opportunity to create something in Scotland's best interests.

Regardless of the result I hope the campaign will lead to a real shake up of UK politics. Not necessarily just with more powers devolved to Scotland, but a realisation of just how disenfranchised many people are across the whole of the UK with the current power structure. I don't believe anyone within Westminster truly believed that the yes camp would gather as much support as it has, and will hopefully give them a wake up call that things need to change

[BlackoutCreature]

Ok, American here, I'm curious about this situation but don't know much about it. Let me ask to those in the know, how would an independent Scotland affect America? Or the international community in general?

[Deleted]

I think good on Scotland to be frank. I'm not sure it is the right choice purely for selfish reasons, the conservatives will never get out of power here without scottish people voting in the general elections, but its something I don't blame them for, especially when Scotlands values and politics are so different from England.

I wish we could have this discussion in Wales, I think we'd be better off out of England to be honest.


Westminster doesn't spend much money on England other than London and nearly nothing on Wales or Scotland, I'm not sure about Scotland but most things in Wales are funded by Europe (seemingly everything has a "funded by EU" sign or logo on/near it), I know that money from Europe is coming back from our taxes, but they give us more than England.


I do think Scotland are being a bit ham fisted though, there are so many things that they haven't worked out that should have been thought through before they even held this.


I also don't trust Alex Salmond one bit, I think he has intentions beyond what he is presenting.


Also I think the EU on paper is good, but it is a bureaucratic nightmare that passes some rather silly laws and needs streamlining dramatically, but I agree with its ideals more than I seem to with British politics.


thank you, you crazy buckfast drinking lunatics Hopefully it encourages the same discussion here one day

[Red Impact]

Sept 18, 2014 12:27:06 GMT -5 BlackoutCreature said:

Ok, American here, I'm curious about this situation but don't know much about it. Let me ask to those in the know, how would an independent Scotland affect America? Or the international community in general?

American here, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Due to the aforementioned oil fields, Scotland holds at least some stake in the UK's economy, which is an important economy in Europe and the world. The Pound Sterling is one of the stronger global currencies, moreso than the Euro, and the uncertainty could affect it's value which would have potentially significant rippling affects.

Scotland also holds the UK's nuclear armament, which they do not want. England, however, doesn't have any place to store it, so those weapons would need to go somewhere.

A lot of Scottish institutions are financed or supported by England, or the EU through England. It represents a lot of students and researchers whose fates might be up in the air for a bit. Their fate in NATO and the EU would be up in the air.

Basically, there are a lot of questions that are unanswered, with the pro side essentially just believing that they'll work it all out. Destabilizing the UK could have a significant effect on the global economy at large.

[kevthetree]

Sept 18, 2014 12:27:06 GMT -5 BlackoutCreature said:

Ok, American here, I'm curious about this situation but don't know much about it. Let me ask to those in the know, how would an independent Scotland affect America? Or the international community in general?

It's really hard to say, no one can agree how it would actually affect Scotland never mind anyone else! Here is an article that mentions some mainly defence and economic affects it may have - edition.cnn.com/2014/09/16/politics/us-scotland-vote/

EAT. SLEEP. CHEAP HEAT. REPEAT said:

I also don't trust Alex Salmond one bit, I think he has intentions beyond what he is presenting.

I trust Salmond to look after the interests of Scotland and the Scottish people more than David Cameron or anyone else based in Westminster. Unfortunately that says more about current UK politics than it does Alex Salmond.

[FinalGwen]

I've been watching close through the whole thing, and at this point I'm more on the Yes side of the argument. I've got friends on both sides living in Scotland, but the Yes campaign seemed a lot more positive (and not just in the sense of aiming for the affirmative). Less condescending, and not blindly attacking the other side and saying they'll be punished if they don't comply - aside from a few recent stories about intimidation that are kind of worrying if true.

I do have my reservations, without Scotland there's more likely we'll have a hung Parliament more regularly, with a possible heavier swing to the right wing, so selfishly part of me wants them to stay. But also, our system needs reform, and most recent referendums have left us with the status quo, and this could act as the catalyst for further change, perhaps devolution to England's regions, which hasn't been tried for over a decade. So... Yeah.

It'll be interesting to see the results either way.

[Hit Girl]

If I was Scottish I'd have voted no. Too many unanswered question from the nationalist side. Especially regarding currency. Whatever happens, I strongly believe Northern England needs its own devolved arrangement like Northern Ireland and Wales. A first minister, executive and assembly are essential, especially in areas such as public spending, the NHS, and welfare. Northern England is too neglected because of the London centric system which has alienated so many Scots, which I can sympathise entirely with.

[Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill]

I honestly can't see any good coming out of an independent Scotland. As mentioned above separating from the UK would cause a huge blow to the British (and therefore international economy) the oil field might sustain them for some time but they would have a spend a huge amount to get them mining, and even after that you have to ask how long those reserves will last them.
Really, I just can't see how anybody will come out of this looking better if 'yes' is voted.

[Famous Rocking Chimes]

I voted Yes. To explain why I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote on Facebook last night.


"When the referendum was first announced I at first looked at it from the point of view of a No voter, in the sense of "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". That was until I actually bothered to look up all the facts and figures regarding the benefits of what independence would actually bring to Scotland. We could potentially be the 14th richest country in the entire world, a country that has far more resources to start off with compared to some other countries that claim independence. We have oil to last us well past 2050 and in fact there is untapped oil in the West Coast of Scotland that has yet to be extracted due to Trident being installed there by Westminster.

Oil is just the tip of the iceberg. Whiskey, hydroelectricity, beef, fresh water, natural gas, coal, solar energy. All viable industries that will provide for Scotland for years to come. All waiting for us.

I find it completely ridiculous that a country like Scotland in the 21st Century has to have food banks set up because many of the working class have been affected by the austerity cuts. I watched a video of what goes on inside a food bank and was horrified to learn that a family of four had been forced to eat tins of cold beans with their fingers because they couldn't afford to buy any food. Some would say that those who are on benefits deserve to suffer like that, but I find it appalling. Not everybody chooses to abuse the benefit system, like how some Labour MPs have described in Westminster as a reason to save money. Why should the majority be punished on the actions of a minority? Half of the people on benefits are pensioners who can't afford their pension which I think is a travesty.

The coverage of this referendum has been an actual abomination. To think that the BBC, which is meant to provide unbiased reporting for ALL of the UK, have downright lied and indeed broken laws to rail against the idea of Scottish independence is disgraceful. And I should know. I study journalism at university, so I'm not just some "nationalist" who wants to be freed from the oppressive English because BRAVEHEART! The way the BBC's bias hasn't even been subtly declared has actually offended me as a journalism student and just on a level of common sense. If I was an undecided voter, I'd vote Yes just based on principle. All this talk of not being able to use the pound, jobs being lost because of banks moving to London, prices in supermarkets going up and Salmond supposedly cutting funds to the NHS have all been disproven by leading experts in each industry. I think I'd prefer taking their opinion to heart than whatever Westminster or the BBC says. The majority of people that I know are voting Yes have all very intelligent, well researched answers as to why Scottish independence is a positive, and I wish some No voters would give them more credit for that.

What is there to gain by sticking with the UK? We've been promised "more powers" but it's all been vague "timetables" and a "vow". Not to mention that to get those powers, it would have to go through Westminster where a good few of the MPs have admitted to voting against the idea of Scotland gaining more powers because they had the audacity to hold a referendum. How is that Better Together? We struggle to get noticed as it is in Westminster (Since the end of World War II, only the outcomes of FOUR General Elections have been influenced by Scotland). And some of those MPs are members of the Labour party, a party that is supposed to represent the working class! They're light blue Tories at this point! If Keir Hardie saw what the Labour party has devolved into now, he'd be doing cartwheels in his grave.

I think the idea of having to pay for tuition fees is a scandal. Easy for us to say that since in Scotland we get free tuition fees but that's not always a guarantee to be around forever. Imagine telling your children you can't afford to send them to university (and by extent, a better chance of gaining a lucrative career) because they weren't lucky enough to be born into a privlieged upbringing. I would feel like an absolute failure as a father.

I'm well aware that it's not going to be all sunshines and rainbows if we go independent, there'll be a few bumps in the road but we just have to keep powering through them. In the event of a No vote I will not piss and moan about it, and cry aimlessly onto social media as to why Scotland did not achieve independence. Vote Yes and Scotland will have a better chance of becoming a better country without having to hope and pray with fingers crossed that Westminster will give us just a little bit of its scraps from the table."

[simplydurhamcalling]

Sept 18, 2014 12:53:48 GMT -5 Hit Girl said:

If I was Scottish I'd have voted no. Too many unanswered question from the nationalist side. Especially regarding currency. Whatever happens, I strongly believe Northern England needs its own devolved arrangement like Northern Ireland and Wales. A first minister, executive and assembly are essential, especially in areas such as public spending, the NHS, and welfare. Northern England is too neglected because of the London centric system which has alienated so many Scots, which I can sympathise entirely with.

Agree with all of this except I would have voted yes if I was Scottish, I'd take any chance to get out from under Tory rule that I could get.

[Hurbster]

Ironically, England is the only country without it's own Parliament.

[FinalGwen]

Sept 18, 2014 12:54:14 GMT -5 Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill said:

I honestly can't see any good coming out of an independent Scotland. As mentioned above separating from the UK would cause a huge blow to the British (and therefore international economy) the oil field might sustain them for some time but they would have a spend a huge amount to get them mining, and even after that you have to ask how long those reserves will last them.
Really, I just can't see how anybody will come out of this looking better if 'yes' is voted.

Losing the USA didn't do wonders for the British economy. And it did cause quite a bit of instability. Some would argue that self determination comes before the economic argument, and that can be properly decided once the referendum has gone. They have many valuable assets such as their oil, which will last a good long while beyond the current political situation, so the details can come later.

[Mattification]

I voted Yes.

[Hurbster]

We have to bear in mind that if the Scots do vote yes it will take years and years for the strings to be cut. It's not just a case of going 'yay, it's our oil now' British companies/British cash are involved. Do they buy the rest of the UK out ? And there is the national debt to consider...

Interesting times indeed.