khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,564
|
Post by khali on Sept 20, 2014 9:22:19 GMT -5
The presentation and the idea itself of a tournament were handled well, but the matches are by and large really bad. And the finishes are awful too. Savage advanced to finals because he rolled around the ring avoiding One Man Gang with a cane. People would be furious if that's a how face was treated going into his first world title win.
Wrestlemania 2 is still worse, though.
|
|
jmule
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,274 
|
Post by jmule on Sept 20, 2014 9:56:06 GMT -5
The presentation and the idea itself of a tournament were handled well, but the matches are by and large really bad. And the finishes are awful too. Savage advanced to finals because he rolled around the ring avoiding One Man Gang with a cane. People would be furious if that's a how face was treated going into his first world title win. Wrestlemania 2 is still worse, though. |
|
mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
|
Post by mizerable on Sept 20, 2014 11:41:29 GMT -5
IMO, it's the first good WM. Yeah, the matches were shorter and sometimes had a cheap DQ, but the difference in quality had improved from the past years where WWF had a shitload of plodding guys. For the most part, pre 1988 WWF is almost unwatchable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2014 14:15:24 GMT -5
IMO, it's the first good WM. Yeah, the matches were shorter and sometimes had a cheap DQ, but the difference in quality had improved from the past years where WWF had a shitload of plodding guys. For the most part, pre 1988 WWF is almost unwatchable. Interesting. I thought that both WM1 and WM3 had some pretty good matches, both more so than 4. In fact, I even thought the main event of WM2 was a pretty good match. I thought that WWE's in-ring product started improving around 1984. It was still miles behind NWA, but at least it wasn't two hairy chested guys with receding hair lines throwing 9,582 punches and 15 minute headlocks like it was during the Bruno/Backlund eras. |
|
mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
|
Post by mizerable on Sept 20, 2014 15:02:39 GMT -5
There were good matches on each of the 3 former Manias, but there's still a lot to be desired overall.
When I watch them...they take forever.
At least I can watch WM4 without feeling like it will never end. WM5 was kind of slow too, but I'd say the quality was still there.
|
|
khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,564
|
Post by khali on Sept 20, 2014 15:33:01 GMT -5
IMO, it's the first good WM. Yeah, the matches were shorter and sometimes had a cheap DQ, but the difference in quality had improved from the past years where WWF had a shitload of plodding guys. For the most part, pre 1988 WWF is almost unwatchable. I thought Mania III was significantly better than IV. There's a bunch of fun matches on it: the opening tag match, Adonis vs. Piper, Bulldogs/Santana vs. Hart Foundation/Davis and obviously Savage vs. Steamboat. |
|
adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
|
Post by adamclark52 on Sept 20, 2014 15:39:14 GMT -5
I liked it because of all the nostalgia it packed in for me. It was certainly better than III.
|
|
|
|
Post by Display Name on Sept 20, 2014 16:49:58 GMT -5
I'll always love it...The Macho Man costume changes probably have something to do with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by baerrtt on Sept 21, 2014 11:39:03 GMT -5
Thought it was boring then and still feel that way now. Smarks today would rip the WWE to shreds if they made an equivalent today and, by comparison, when you realise how strongly Daniel Bryan was made to look at Mania this year compared to Savage in the tournament....
|
|
Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
|
Post by Boo! on Sept 22, 2014 5:37:09 GMT -5
It sucked because it was too long. They should have had the early stages leading up to WM 4 and then on the night just had the semi final and finals:
Hogan vs DiBiase
-----------------------------------------------------------------------> Savage vs DiBiase
Savage vs Andre
Then filled the rest of the card with proper WM matches.
|
|
willyjakes
Don Corleone
Dingleberry Don
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 1,646
|
Post by willyjakes on Sept 22, 2014 8:16:24 GMT -5
I remember in the early days of the IWC Wrestlemania 4 was always referred to as Wrestlemania Bore...and for good reason.
I did kind of find it interesting how there was an unusual entrance-way at the Trump Plaza Arena. Wrestlers had to go down a few flights of stairs.
|
|
domrep
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by domrep on Sept 22, 2014 8:35:06 GMT -5
I thought they should have done the quarterfinals- finals instead of the whole tournament in one night.
Hogan vs. Andre 3
Ted Dibiase vs. Don Muraco
Savage vs. Valentine
Beefcake vs. Honky Tonk Man
Islanders/Heenan vs. Bulldogs/Koko B. Ware
Demolition vs. Strike Force
Savage vs. One Man Gang
Savage vs. Dibiase
I also forgot about the battle royal, so the card is strong for the most part.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stu on Sept 22, 2014 8:43:39 GMT -5
It sucked because it was too long. They should have had the early stages leading up to WM 4 and then on the night just had the semi final and finals: Hogan vs DiBiase -----------------------------------------------------------------------> Savage vs DiBiase Savage vs Andre Then filled the rest of the card with proper WM matches. Back then, a typical Raw match WAS a proper Wrestlemania match. Considering TV shows were comprised of jobber matches, it was special to see the actual "character" wrestlers facing each other on PPV. Essentially, Wrestlemania IV was a big deal for its time and I can't fault the WWF for trying something new, especially on the heals of Wrestlemania III. Much like how they tried to up their game from Wrestlemania I by having a three-city Wrestlemania II, they tried to step up after a big Wrestlemania III by having a tournament at Wrestlemania IV. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 9:48:39 GMT -5
I think the problem is that WrestleMania IV doesn't hold up that well over time, and there are too many people in this thread who are looking backward on it and judging it based on the wrong criteria.
The WM4 tournament was a huge event in its day. You can't underscore enough how important it was to have the title change hands, let alone be declared vacant and held up in a tournament where 16 guys all got a chance to win it in one night.
The quality of the wrestling was secondary. Yes, personally I think the tournament could have been executed better. Savage should have earned that moniker of "undisputed champion", instead of having to thank Hogan for his victory. Never the less, it was a big deal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paco S. Loco on Sept 22, 2014 16:50:24 GMT -5
I like the sporting feel of the event. Despite the relative shortness of the matches, it truly feels like an epic accomplishment for Savage to make it through the whole thing.
The tournament gives the matches more purpose than the usual old school wrestlemania "there's no real beef here, we just wanted everyone on the card" matches.
I think people's opinions are based on the coliseum video versions where everything prior to Summerslam 91 was edited down.... except Wrestlemania IV, which was split onto two tapes to keep it intact AND also had a few minutes worth of coliseum video exclusives added onto it. So it seemed way longer than the other events which were edited down to under 3 hours.
The Rude/Roberts match is very boring (pretty much every Rude match in 1988 was long and boring) and a textbook example of how NOT to wrestle a match that is going to end in a time limit draw.
The Bam Bam match ending is dumb.
But my only real complaint is the ending of Hogan/Andre. Hogan hits Andre with the chair. Ref sees it and does nothing. Andre hits Hogan with a chair, double DQ. Match should have been over as soon as Hogan hit Andre. Typical Hogan double standards.
Although I guess I should give them credit for still DQing Hogan. If that happened today with John Cena you know the ref would've still done nothing when Cena uses the chair and then when the heel does... "The winner of this match as a result of a disqualification... JJJOOOOOHNNNNN CEEEEEEENA!!!!!!!!" with Michael Cole being forced to yank an excuse out of his ass why Cena can use chairs any time he damn well pleases, but on the other hand, the heel using the chair has totally done the unthinkable as displaced Hitler on the "Worst People to Ever Live" list, to such a degree that the actual list could never be written because there just isn't enough space in the universe to leave an appropriately sized gap between 1 and 2 to adequately illustrate just how much worse than Hitler the heel is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 22, 2014 16:54:33 GMT -5
I'm a fan of tourneys and brackets, so I thought it was cool. Just maybe don't make it the majority of your event.
|
|
Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by Tony Schiavontay on Sept 22, 2014 18:15:46 GMT -5
I'm a fan of tourneys and brackets, so I thought it was cool. Just maybe don't make it the majority of your event. Also, try to not load the tournament up with cheap countout and DQ finishes. Also, book it to your strength. There was no reason to advance Greg Valentine to the second round over Steamboat. Imagine how much better and more memorable Randy Savage's first title win would have been if earlier in the night he'd redeemed himself against the guy who got the better of him and took his IC title the year before. Not to mention, it would have given a surefire great match to one of the most boring shows in history, in-ring wise. |
|
|
|
Post by baerrtt on Sept 25, 2014 3:45:17 GMT -5
I'm a fan of tourneys and brackets, so I thought it was cool. Just maybe don't make it the majority of your event. Also, try to not load the tournament up with cheap countout and DQ finishes. Also, book it to your strength. There was no reason to advance Greg Valentine to the second round over Steamboat. Imagine how much better and more memorable Randy Savage's first title win would have been if earlier in the night he'd redeemed himself against the guy who got the better of him and took his IC title the year before. Not to mention, it would have given a surefire great match to one of the most boring shows in history, in-ring wise. I've read a theory that they didn't do Savage vs Steamboat during the tourney because they wanted Randy to be cheered completely throughout his victories and didn't want the audience to think or remember 'Hey didn't he crush Ricky's larynx? Why should I root for him?'. |
|
auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,951
|
Post by auph10imitated on Sept 25, 2014 13:01:37 GMT -5
I agree with the quarter finals on the show and do the first round on SNME.
12 Match Card:
Macho Man Randy Savage vs. Greg The Hammer Valentine (Winner: Savage)
Jake The Snake Roberts vs Ravishing Rick Rude (Winner: Rude)
Million Dollar Man Ted Dibiase vs. Ricky The Dragon Steamboat (Winner: Dibiase)
Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant (Winner: Draw)
Macho Man Randy Savage vs Ravishing Rick Rude (Semi Finals)
Macho Man Randy Savage vs Million Dollar Man Ted Dibiase (Finals)
Honky Tonk Man vs Brutus Beefcake (IC Championship)
Strike Force vs Demolition (Tag Championship)
The Islanders, King Harley Race & Bobby The Brain Heenan vs Bam Bam Bigelow, Hacksaw Jim Duggan & The British Bulldogs (8 Man tag Match)
Ultimate Warrior vs Hercules (Grudge Match)
Sensational Sherri & Glamour Girls vs Velvet McIntyre & Jumping Bomb Angels (6 Woman Tag Match)
20 Man Battle Royal
(Muraco, Bravo, Reed, OMG, Koko, Brown, Bret, Anvil, JYD, Hillbilly, Patera, Jacques, Raymond, Sika, Steele, Bass, Volkoff, Zhukov, Blair, Brunzell)
|
|
Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
|
Post by Steveweiser on Sept 25, 2014 13:12:55 GMT -5
Very timely thread - go listen to The Lapsed Fan podcast, where the hosts spend nearly five hours discussing WrestleMania IV and the events surrounding it, including a conversation with Dave Meltzer to give it more context. WrestleZone.com has it.
|
|
