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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 19, 2014 22:09:51 GMT -5
Is it wise to book individual wrestlers in ROH with a five year plan in mind? Realistically if a guy's that good there's a high chance he'll get snatched up within a few years. A five year plan is great for WWE where most guys aren't going anywhere, but the ROHs of the world need to be a bit more short-sighted. Or they get built up, snatched up by WWE or TNA, they get bigger, and then they come back and they're bigger stars. Guys like AJ Styles, The Addiction, Jay Lethal, Matt Sydal. Or, WWE doesn't snatch them up, and you build up ROH with your current stars and look to build guys for the future. Maybe 5 years is a little long, though like, Adam Cole has been in ROH for 5 years and he's done so well by working his way up from the bottom as a plucky underdog baby face to the man he has become. If a guy is brought in and thrown into the upper midcard-main event picture, then they can't be main eventers forever. The only place to go from the top is down, and I think that's why they let go of Austin Aries. It's not that he isn't talented, but the only place for him to go after being a two time champion is down. And I feel ROH is one of those places that does a decent job of cycling talent in and out, due to being a big indy, but small national promotion. Sheamus has this problem in WWE. He's brought in, thrown into the main event picture, so the only place for him to go is down. How many people keep saying Randy Orton is so tired and bland? Hell, for awhile, even he had to go down the ladder for a bit. WWE doesn't even have the privilege of what Jim Cornette feels. We can't miss you if you don't leave. Hell, if Colt Cabana wasn't stubborn and came back into ROH when they offered him a chance to comeback after Cornette left, he would have been a mega star. Because he left on one level, and came back on another one. People missed him and because of that, he would come back as a bigger star. But that relies on the hope that said talent are either blatantly misused in the big leagues or just flat out bomb. I mean, if a talent is actually good and used right, they'll be in WWE (or TNA if they were in better shape) for a long long time. ROH wouldn't have AJ, or Bad Influence (they're still Bad Influence to me dammit) if TNA had its shit together. They wouldn't have Sydal if not for his drug issues AND if WWE didn't need to appease Wall Street through cost cutting.
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Ultimo Gallos
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Sept 19, 2014 23:00:36 GMT -5
I continually hear all these references to turning it into Smoky Mountain Wrestling....and it doesn't sound a damn thing like Smoky Mountain Wrestling. That's because most of the people saying that never saw much if any SMW.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 23:08:20 GMT -5
I think Austin Aries first came up with the term smokey mountain of honor. I always found weird that he buried Jim, did Aries had issues with Cornette? I don't think they were even around in roh.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Sept 19, 2014 23:11:24 GMT -5
I think Austin Aries first came up with the term smokey mountain of honor. I always found weird that he buried Jim, did Aries had issues with Cornette? I don't think they were even around in roh. Cornette returned to ROH in September 2009 Aries left ROH in October 2010
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 19, 2014 23:22:42 GMT -5
Oh right, I thought Aries left earlier, did something happened between them?
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Post by ________ has left the building on Sept 19, 2014 23:36:44 GMT -5
I continually hear all these references to turning it into Smoky Mountain Wrestling....and it doesn't sound a damn thing like Smoky Mountain Wrestling. That's because most of the people saying that never saw much if any SMW. No, I watched plenty of Smoky Mountain Wrestling. I grew up watching the southern style of pro wrestling so I know it when I see it. Cornette used booking tactics that he was familiar with like the Beat the Champ TV title rules complete with cash bonus with each win. There is nothing wrong with the southern style (I watch OVW and NWA SAW every week) but you got to know what your target audience wants. They want people they can get behind and rat bastards who they will boo. Also state of the art pro wrestling. But plain, white meat babyfaces don't work in ROH; ask Micheal Elgin. They want fleshed out, realistic people. Like the Briscoes and Jimmy Jacobs.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 20, 2014 1:40:03 GMT -5
The other issue is Cornette isn't the best at articulating what he wants of his talent. He may be right in what he wants, but his temper will get in the way. And in a lot of ways, while the end game he has in mind may be great, he doesn't always understand the journey when he wasn't the one booking early.
While his ideas for Generico may have been great in the long run, I don't think he liked and/or understood that a big reason why his feud with Steen worked so well is because it was a fun loving guy being forced to go to a place he never thought he'd have to go against a guy he considered a brother. Similarly, Colt got over A LOT thanks to his Homicide feud.
And I don't care the reasoning, he bad mouthed the Super Smash Brothers in favor of Mike Bennett. I don't care how much Bennett improved, his comments towards SSB were not right.
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Post by lildude8218 on Sept 20, 2014 1:59:25 GMT -5
not to defend Cornette but "striking while the iron is hot" has never been ROH's strong suit. the fans were chanting "Next World Champ" at Tyler for so long that they eventually moved on and started chanting it at Davey instead.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 20, 2014 6:57:07 GMT -5
Or they get built up, snatched up by WWE or TNA, they get bigger, and then they come back and they're bigger stars. Guys like AJ Styles, The Addiction, Jay Lethal, Matt Sydal. Or, WWE doesn't snatch them up, and you build up ROH with your current stars and look to build guys for the future. Maybe 5 years is a little long, though like, Adam Cole has been in ROH for 5 years and he's done so well by working his way up from the bottom as a plucky underdog baby face to the man he has become. If a guy is brought in and thrown into the upper midcard-main event picture, then they can't be main eventers forever. The only place to go from the top is down, and I think that's why they let go of Austin Aries. It's not that he isn't talented, but the only place for him to go after being a two time champion is down. And I feel ROH is one of those places that does a decent job of cycling talent in and out, due to being a big indy, but small national promotion. Sheamus has this problem in WWE. He's brought in, thrown into the main event picture, so the only place for him to go is down. How many people keep saying Randy Orton is so tired and bland? Hell, for awhile, even he had to go down the ladder for a bit. WWE doesn't even have the privilege of what Jim Cornette feels. We can't miss you if you don't leave. Hell, if Colt Cabana wasn't stubborn and came back into ROH when they offered him a chance to comeback after Cornette left, he would have been a mega star. Because he left on one level, and came back on another one. People missed him and because of that, he would come back as a bigger star. But that relies on the hope that said talent are either blatantly misused in the big leagues or just flat out bomb. I mean, if a talent is actually good and used right, they'll be in WWE (or TNA if they were in better shape) for a long long time. ROH wouldn't have AJ, or Bad Influence (they're still Bad Influence to me dammit) if TNA had its shit together. They wouldn't have Sydal if not for his drug issues AND if WWE didn't need to appease Wall Street through cost cutting. Some might be, some might not. Developing talent takes time. I remember Cornette talks years ago about where a 28-29 year old Tyler Black could be and how he could be this mega star, and a 28 year old Tyler Black is one of the guys on top in wrestling. Building talent takes time and maybe they get snatched up. But it's better to get people ready in hopes they make it on through. Because if you start with a whole bunch of talent, one or two might go, but some might stay. You shouldn't just hot shot people into positions they might need to mature into.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 20, 2014 9:51:22 GMT -5
not to defend Cornette but "striking while the iron is hot" has never been ROH's strong suit. the fans were chanting "Next World Champ" at Tyler for so long that they eventually moved on and started chanting it at Davey instead. Yeah, it was the reason Gabe got fired by Silkin too. Tyler debuted in 07 with Age of the Fall, he was getting over steadily. Aotf also defeated the Briacoes, he was getting a big reaction every time, even came close to pinning Nigel. The logical step would've been for him to be world champ, but Cary wanted Jerry Lynn, never understood why, maybe to have a recognizable guy since they were going to hdnet. Gabe told on his MySpace blog a story that doesn't gets mentioned much, about just how big was Tyler Black's "aura" like the way he carried himself as a star. One day they were in FIP, and like three sixteen aged thugs were cursing them (Gabe and Tyler) out on the street. Black went to confront them, and they started throwing Rocks at Tyler. Instead of running, Tyler stood there, not even dodging the rocks, just mean mugging them and screaming, the guys got scared and ran away. Gabe said that after that moment he knew Tyler was gonna be somebody. We have hindsight now regarding roh's decision ofchoosing Lynn over Black, f*** it lead to the creation of dgusa, man a two year reign from Tyler would've been great.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2014 20:38:06 GMT -5
God, do I hate when people make the "You smart marks will watch anything anyway!"
Well, there's a ton of "smart fans" online who don't give a damn about ROH and TNA.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 21, 2014 0:12:15 GMT -5
God, do I hate when people make the "You smart marks will watch anything anyway!" Well, there's a ton of "smart fans" online who don't give a damn about ROH and TNA. Man I just pictured Silas doing a public service announcement saying that. I think most smakrs are gonna watch no matter what, they buried Cornette's product but they kept watching it still.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 2:44:34 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the problem has never been Cornette's evaluation of talent or his ideas. The problem is the way that he conducts himself and his personal interaction with the people around him.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 21, 2014 6:56:36 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the problem has never been Cornette's evaluation of talent or his ideas. The problem is the way that he conducts himself and his personal interaction with the people around him. Well there's also how he doesn't get certain things. In his last KC shoot he just started ripping the Super Smash Bros because fans wanted them booked (this is when they were insanely hot in 2012 and 2013 before they had visa issues). No question was asked about them and Cornette just brought them up and said no one in their right mind would book them over Matt Hardy or Mike Bennett (debatable). I don't know the exact quote but it passed Stu and Uno off quite a bit
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 8:20:04 GMT -5
I like the SSB, but I think his point was valid. He just did it in a way that was particularly insulting and disrespectful to them. His point being, if you are trying to create new customers through a wrestling television show, the talent being featured on that television show need to look the part, or the average guy channel surfing won't take the company seriously. On the indie level, it's not that big of a deal if some of the guys on the show are overweight and don't have traditional wrestling gear. For what their goals were with the television show, they had to try to make their show seem as major league as possible. He was absolutely a jerk for singling them out the way he did, but I do see his point.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 21, 2014 8:58:37 GMT -5
I like the SSB, but I think his point was valid. He just did it in a way that was particularly insulting and disrespectful to them. His point being, if you are trying to create new customers through a wrestling television show, the talent being featured on that television show need to look the part, or the average guy channel surfing won't take the company seriously. On the indie level, it's not that big of a deal if some of the guys on the show are overweight and don't have traditional wrestling gear. For what their goals were with the television show, they had to try to make their show seem as major league as possible. He was absolutely a jerk for singling them out the way he did, but I do see his point. Which again is another reason I feel Cornette failed the last time. He may have the right idea, but he just can't articulate it in a way that doesn't piss people off. And as I said, when Stu and Uno had no interaction with Cornette and had nothing to do with ROH, trashing them makes no sense... especially when it also caused bad blood between Cornette and a few of the Canadian wrestlers. And while looking major league is/was a good idea, I personally feel that you need to blend in the colorful and cartoony characters from time to time is good.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 21, 2014 11:12:22 GMT -5
God, do I hate when people make the "You smart marks will watch anything anyway!" Well, there's a ton of "smart fans" online who don't give a damn about ROH and TNA. Man I just pictured Silas doing a public service announcement saying that. I think most smakrs are gonna watch no matter what, they buried Cornette's product but they kept watching it still. Other then one iPPV, I haven't watched ROH since Cornette was there. The Clone Wars killed me, I just could not bring myself to give a shit about Strong/Richards/Edwards. I really, really tried to like ROH then, but ROH TV was so f***ing boring with Corny in charge.
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Johnny B. Decent
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Sept 21, 2014 11:16:47 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the problem has never been Cornette's evaluation of talent or his ideas. The problem is the way that he conducts himself and his personal interaction with the people around him. Well there's also how he doesn't get certain things. In his last KC shoot he just started ripping the Super Smash Bros because fans wanted them booked (this is when they were insanely hot in 2012 and 2013 before they had visa issues). No question was asked about them and Cornette just brought them up and said no one in their right mind would book them over Matt Hardy or Mike Bennett (debatable). I don't know the exact quote but it passed Stu and Uno off quite a bit Is Jim Cornette responsible for why Mike Bennett is a thing?
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 21, 2014 11:18:19 GMT -5
I love the super smash brothers, I thought that they were gonna be the second coming of steen and Generico, they looked awesome in pwg, then they dissapeared from the face of the earth. That being said, I get Cornette's point of not using them for a tv casual crowd, same way as the ice creams wouldn't be on tv.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 21, 2014 11:25:56 GMT -5
Well there's also how he doesn't get certain things. In his last KC shoot he just started ripping the Super Smash Bros because fans wanted them booked (this is when they were insanely hot in 2012 and 2013 before they had visa issues). No question was asked about them and Cornette just brought them up and said no one in their right mind would book them over Matt Hardy or Mike Bennett (debatable). I don't know the exact quote but it passed Stu and Uno off quite a bit Is Jim Cornette responsible for why Mike Bennett is a thing? Initially yes. And while those who love ROH will say he has improved (he has) he is still just a guy to me that happens to have an insanely hot fiance/wife. It's kind of like Pepper Parks in CZW. He's athletic and good in the ring, but people only care about him because he brings Cherry Bomb with him. There was a VISA issue with them and according to Uno when the issue came up they were told it would take several months before their case was even brought up. And again, it's not that he didn't use SSB, it's that he attacked them on a shoot interview because the fans wanted them booked and they had nothing to do with ROH or Cornette.
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