Anybody else kind of sick of cheating?

[Hobby Drifter]

In any other sport, the amount of cheating you see in wrestling would be intolerable. It's one thing for a heel to do something unsportsmanlike to win a match or retain a title. But when third parties and foreign objects are involved AT LEAST twice per night, it stretches the suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.

If you were watching the Stanley Cup finals and, seconds before last buzzer, another team ran onto the ice, knocked out the refs, and filled one team's goal with pucks they'd brought from home, only for the refs to come to a count them... you'd probably never watch hockey again. Everybody in the building would demand a refund.

Hell, even MMA. If one dude knocked out the ref and then flattened his opponent with a chair, he wouldn't be declared the winner when the ref came to. He'd be banned from the sport for life.

But in wrestling, something like 80+% of CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES are decided by blatant cheating.

It kind of loses it's impact when it happens as often as not.

[PsychoGoatee]

I do see a lot of posts saying they'd like heels to cheat more and win clean less, so there's a wide range of opinions on this.

But I agree with you, I think not all heels should need to cheat, but it does work for cowardly heels like Rollins or Edge etc. But a heel who's just as strong and capable as the hero makes a more compelling opponent, and is good for variety. Especially personified in the monster heel champ Brock Lesnar.

[Hobby Drifter]

How about this? If your big (several hundred dollars per ticket, 50 on PPV, 9.99 on the network) ends with a blatant DQ, finish...everybody gets refunds. Every friggin' DIME.

It's bad enough that this Calvinball-like BS happens on the undercard. But when your MAIN EVENT, the one match that everybody PAID to see is DQ/no contest... Fans have every right to demand compensation.

[Main Eventer]

I'm of the opinion that almost all the heels should cheat to win. Unless they are a monster heel, or facing somebody much lower on the card then them. It helps everybody, the face can still look strong because he only lost the match because of interference, chair to the back, etc. While it gives people more of a reason to hate the heel, and when a face wins it means more because the face won despite all of the rule breaking the heel did.

DQ finishes in PPV matches can burn in hell though.

[Deleted]

It's less about the cheating and more the ways they get there. Playing a guy's music as a guy's coming out in the middle of a match just flat out shouldn't happen. Surprise roll up pins shouldn't be as common as they are. I don't even understand grabbing the tights and how that gives a pin more leverage.

That being said I think it can be debated that it's far better than it used to be. The amount of cheating in past decades was even less subtle than it is today.

[Deleted]

I want different kinds of cheating. Run-ins, distractions, and pulling the tights are the only things anyone does anymore. They banned low blows for no apparent reason, you never see pokes in the eyes anymore or someone using brass knuckles or something... Hell, two matches in one night ended in the heel getting a roll-up and pulling the tights.

[BorneAgain]

I wouldn't mind more cheating, provided they make the officials more competent and the punishments harsher for heels who are caught doing it.

Jake Roberts made the great point that idiotic refs who miss obvious rule breaking don't put the heat on the heel for cheating, they put it on the referee for being a moron.

Its why I really dug TNA having a negative 10 points in their BFG series for dq losses. However well its applied it made it clear that you better be damn good at cheating or you'll pay severely for it.

[Adam Black]

Kane vs Drew bored me to tears but the finish stuck out to me because of how creative the finish was it established Drew as a sneaky motherf***er.

[Mayonnaise]

I honestly don't think there is enough. There needs to be more of people using the ropes for leverage in submissions and pins, more eye pokes and back rakes, hook the tights and make it obvious (kudos to Miz on this one tonight) and so on. DQ's in the main event should be rare and that is why tonight wasn't horrible to me. Build to Brock now wanting to destroy Seth, Hunter, Cena and anyone else involved. Obviously not every heel should need to cheat but some should just because they're dicks. That should be Cesaro, all the talent in the world but "f*** you dude *eye poke*", while someone like Orton just tears you apart limb by limb and takes pleasure in it.

[comahan]

As a massive fan of 80's NWA, I agree with Ric and believe here should be more good old heel tactics and cheating.

As far as DQs in the main event go, if I were paying $60 for the show I'd probably be annoyed and angry, but in the current format I genuinely don't care as long as it builds to something. I'm getting more than enough in terms of content for the money I'm paying imo, so they can take whatever liberties they want in order tell the stories they want to tell. Just don't do it in the WrestleMania main event and I'm good.

[Kevin Hamilton]

I like how Tully Blanchard described cheating on the Horsemen dvd as them maneuvering the ref out of position to do whatever they did.

That's the sort of cheating I'd like more of, where it's the heel planning and manipulating the ref through cunning and not ref stupidity.

[comahan]

Sept 21, 2014 23:39:32 GMT -5 Kevin Hamilton said:

I like how Tully Blanchard described cheating on the Horsemen dvd as them maneuvering the ref out of position to do whatever they did.

That's the sort of cheating I'd like more of, where it's the heel planning and manipulating the ref through cunning and not ref stupidity.

Agreed. For some bizarre reason there are people who call JJ Dillon a pointless addition to the Horsemen because all four horsemen were great talkers. They don't seem to understand that Dillon's role wasn't as a mouthpiece, it was to add another way for the heels to f*** over the faces during the matches. Dillon's presence made it very easy for them to manipulate the ref and get him out of position. The lack of managers now makes heels much more one dimensional and cuts off a very easy and very sensible way to give their heels wins while protecting their faces.

[Deleted]

I like cheating it's as much a part of wrestling as the moves themselves. Wrestling would lose something without it.

We have very little cheating in wrestling today, in the WWE anyway. "unclean" wins tend to be a result of distractions and interference in general from others. Most of the interference in fact, tends to lead to DQs/no contests.


It's very rare to see people cheat on their own anymore (by smacking someone with a weapon while the ref isn't looking, for example). Tights holding and feet on the ropes is about it, which is pretty dull.

I suppose it depends on what you grew up with. The first 15-20 years or so I watched wrestling, unless a heel was facing a jobber, 90% of the time he won by cheating. Maybe even more than 90%. Things just change over time though. There was also a time where practically every match with an undercard face had a sequence where the face would hit two armdrags, then dropkick the heel who would often then stumble/fall out of the ring. Now, you don't see it in the WWE at all.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Not every heel should cheat. That would be boring. But WWE need to have a few who just cheat to win constantly. Miz or Seth would be perfect.

I also think it's time they had an Eddie Guerrero style face who cheats to win. Last time we had one was Regal's brief run on NXT/Superstars where he kept cheating in his matches (and it was hilarious).

[Captain & Diet]

I'm not sick of cheating. A man can't eat the same bowl of cereal every day if you know what I mean.

[Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill]

Win if you can, lose if you must, but ALWAYS cheat.

[saintpat]

Sept 21, 2014 20:38:29 GMT -5 Hobby Drifter said:

In any other sport, the amount of cheating you see in wrestling would be intolerable. It's one thing for a heel to do something unsportsmanlike to win a match or retain a title. But when third parties and foreign objects are involved AT LEAST twice per night, it stretches the suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.

If you were watching the Stanley Cup finals and, seconds before last buzzer, another team ran onto the ice, knocked out the refs, and filled one team's goal with pucks they'd brought from home, only for the refs to come to a count them... you'd probably never watch hockey again. Everybody in the building would demand a refund.

Hell, even MMA. If one dude knocked out the ref and then flattened his opponent with a chair, he wouldn't be declared the winner when the ref came to. He'd be banned from the sport for life.

But in wrestling, something like 80+% of CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES are decided by blatant cheating.

It kind of loses it's impact when it happens as often as not.

You do have cheating in every major sport:

* Football players hold. They commit pass interference. They take cheap shots (personal fouls).

* Basketball players travel to gain an advantage, they go over the back to grab a rebound, they lower their shoulders and bump a defender out of position to get off a shot.

* Soccer players go offsides, they flop (or dive, a term that I guess is supposed to make it sound less cowardly).

* Boxers land low blows, they rabbit punch (hit the back of the head), they hold and hit, hit after the bell.

* Baseball players have used corked bats, pitchers have used files or substances on the ball to make it move more.

All these have been done on purpose. They are done to gain an advantage. Sometimes the refs catch them, sometimes they get away with it. Sometimes they decide the outcome of big games, even championships.

Just like wrestling.

I think your estimation of 80 percent sounds high, although I haven't done the research, but I would guess that some form of what I have mentioned (or the countless other things I haven't mentioned that are more subtle, like a baseball catcher framing a pitch that he knows is out of the strike zone to get a strike called) happen in about 100 percent of championship contests -- you think there's no holding in the Super Bowl (or no holding that players get away with), for instance?

[Hobby Drifter]

Sept 22, 2014 4:51:49 GMT -5 saintpat said:

Sept 21, 2014 20:38:29 GMT -5 Hobby Drifter said:

In any other sport, the amount of cheating you see in wrestling would be intolerable. It's one thing for a heel to do something unsportsmanlike to win a match or retain a title. But when third parties and foreign objects are involved AT LEAST twice per night, it stretches the suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.

If you were watching the Stanley Cup finals and, seconds before last buzzer, another team ran onto the ice, knocked out the refs, and filled one team's goal with pucks they'd brought from home, only for the refs to come to a count them... you'd probably never watch hockey again. Everybody in the building would demand a refund.

Hell, even MMA. If one dude knocked out the ref and then flattened his opponent with a chair, he wouldn't be declared the winner when the ref came to. He'd be banned from the sport for life.

But in wrestling, something like 80+% of CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES are decided by blatant cheating.

It kind of loses it's impact when it happens as often as not.

You do have cheating in every major sport:

* Football players hold. They commit pass interference. They take cheap shots (personal fouls).

* Basketball players travel to gain an advantage, they go over the back to grab a rebound, they lower their shoulders and bump a defender out of position to get off a shot.

* Soccer players go offsides, they flop (or dive, a term that I guess is supposed to make it sound less cowardly).

* Boxers land low blows, they rabbit punch (hit the back of the head), they hold and hit, hit after the bell.

* Baseball players have used corked bats, pitchers have used files or substances on the ball to make it move more.

All these have been done on purpose. They are done to gain an advantage. Sometimes the refs catch them, sometimes they get away with it. Sometimes they decide the outcome of big games, even championships.

Just like wrestling.

I think your estimation of 80 percent sounds high, although I haven't done the research, but I would guess that some form of what I have mentioned (or the countless other things I haven't mentioned that are more subtle, like a baseball catcher framing a pitch that he knows is out of the strike zone to get a strike called) happen in about 100 percent of championship contests -- you think there's no holding in the Super Bowl (or no holding that players get away with), for instance?

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with things like that. Raking the eyes, for instance. Or a low-blow when the ref is distracted. Things that the ref could conceivably miss. But stuff like a third party getting involved in the match. The ref getting KNOCKED OUT (Oh. I must've fallen asleep. Good thing I work up in time to count this finish.). That's the kind of stuff that drives me nuts and completely ruins my attempts at suspending disbelief.

Look at last night. Rollins ran in and ruined the ending of a major PPV that people paid hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for. And he'll have like ZERO repercussions for doing it. That Tae Kwon Do guy who hit the ref in the previous Olympics had a lifetime ban from the sport *before he stepped out of the circle*. Mike Tyson, one of the biggest names in boxing was suspended for how long after the whole ear thing?

But in WWE, anybody can wreck a million-dollar main event whenever the hell they want. It's (more) absurd (than usual)!

[Wolfman Rose]

Uhhhh... I think that may be to do with the fact WWE isn't a legitimate sport. This is like complaining the Joker doesn't play fair when he's fighting Batman.

[Hobby Drifter]

Sept 22, 2014 5:22:50 GMT -5 Wolfman Rose said:

Uhhhh... I think that may be to do with the fact WWE isn't a legitimate sport. This is like complaining the Joker doesn't play fair when he's fighting Batman.

I know comics and movies have become more expensive, but I don't think the latest Joker story costs as much as floor seats to a WWE PPV.