Rest holds are the worst

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2014 16:15:15 GMT -5 Boo! said:

I dont get resthold hate. It's part of wrestling and has been for years. If a heel has a face in a resthold and the crowd are getting annoyed - that's the point!

It's like going to a music concert and booing every bit of every song that isn't the chorus. Wrestling matches should have light and dark, slow and fast, ups and downs. If you just want speed, action and excitement stay at home and play a ******* video game.

Sorry but I already resent that so much of the product now has to be aimed at a fidgety goldfish with attention deficit disorder without the basic lay out of matches getting ruined already. 

"A sleeper hold? BOOOO!!! This isn't exciting. Why am I not on the edge of my seat? Where's the explosion? I can't watch this movie, there's no helicopter crash. I've been here 10 seconds and nothing has caught fire!!!"

I don't think that's comparable. A wrestling match isn't a movie, it's a fight scene of one - it's more like if in the middle of the final fight in Bloodsport there was a point where Li started pinching Dux's neck for three straight minutes to try and wear him down because it'd make sense to try and catch his breath. It'd still bring the fight to a screeching hault.

Of course there need to be breaks, and rest holds can work very well, but so often they're just so damn boring. There are other ways to kill time and let them catch their breath but nobody seems to ever do them. And if it's a five minute match there's absolutely no excuse to be doing it.

And if you want to see a good example of how they can go horribly wrong, look up Bunkhouse Stampede's opening match, where a twenty minute match has probably fifteen minutes of it taken up by a hammerlock. It's quite possibly the single most boring f***ing thing I've ever seen.

[Boo!]

What annoys me about retrospective canonisation of someone like Jake Roberts is that fans today would boo the crap out of him because "ring psychology" often didn't involve doing that much and a slower pace. Jake Roberts today would get the "boring" chant inside 3 minutes by the same fans who pretend to be so impressed with his work.

The art of psychology and telling  a story and a match having its own self-contained narrative is dead because "rest holds are boring now". Go back 20 years and watch those now lauded as ring-masters and generals and see how much wouldn't get crapped on by todays audience. It's not a lot.

I think this is why storylines barely last a segment nowadays too. If it isn't done fast and five minutes ago we get bored. It's a disease that has helped ruin wrestling for a lot of people. There's simply no scope for narrative either inside the ring or in a storyline arc. 

[Deleted]

People can tell the difference between ring psychology and wasting time.

There's no psychology in seeing things done in the same way (often in the same order) each match. What that is is a boring rerun. In fact it's why I couldn't stand Bret Hart's entire singles run where I watched him stomp, kick, and kneebar his opponents leg for 10+ minutes a match.

HBK using headlock takedowns on Angle repeatedly at wrestlemania 21 was ring psychology. Angle sold it too. Just doing something boring and hiding it behind ring psychology "since it tells a story!" sucks if the story is boring. Throwing in a 2 minute chinlock in a match just because the guy is there and happens to be available to apply it is not nor has it ever been interesting.

There's not even as many restholds used anymore. Now resthold v2 is just throwing people out of the ring and letting them roll around outside devastated from the landing for a minute and a half. "We'll be back as RAW rolls on!"

[Muskrat]

Sept 29, 2014 12:26:50 GMT -5 @lovehater said:

It's a part of wrestling. I don't agree at all with JR, that they should act like it's some crazy MMA submission and desperately try to flail out of the devastating chinlock. It's not a submission hold. It's a way for the wrestler to conserve energy, kayfabe or no, while continuing to lean on his opponent and sap their strength. It's not supposed to be exciting, it's supposed to be a lull in the action. Fans now have less patience and the matches are so spot-heavy that everyone's just waiting for the last half of the match where all the cool stuff happens.

The reason it sucks now is that WWE's style is so formulaic. Formula is also a part of wrestling, but they've gotten way lazier about mixing up said formula, I guess because "everyone knows it's fake so who cares" or some other defeatist garbage.

What they could do it make it more of a heel thing, like get your feet on the ropes to apply more pressure, then the ref would look and he'd get down, etc. Cesaro pulled this with an abdominal stretch on Smackdown, I was very happy.

That's where I think the issue is now. 90% of WWE matches are so paint by numbers now, that you can predict most matches (quite possibly down to the high spots) before the entrances are finished. Inside the context of a good match, there's nothing wrong with restholds, they give you a chance to breathe, but when the restholds are at the exact same cue as the match before, with the exact same babyface shine coming out of it, it's boring as f***.

[Deleted]

I just hate when there's no psycchology attached to their usage. If you need a second, take it, but take it in way to where you're softening them up for your finisher, diminishing their abillity to do theirs, killing their momentum or just outright grabbing some heat. Don't just slap something on just because.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Yeah, I'm not a fan either.

They especially bug me when you've got a 5 minute match and one of the guys eats a minute by locking in a chinlock. In longer matches I can see why they are needed but I wish they'd be more creative sometimes in using them, like the play the rest hold into the psychology of a match. Like if Orton is working the leg, rather than go for a chinlock resthold he does a standard leglock one.

[MrBRulzOK]

The problem with rest holds is they are rarely sold as anything special. It's the ultimate equivalent of filler in a match. Why should I buy that could potentially be the end of the match when it's never worked in the past?

What's worse is that more often then not, especially with guys who have only learned the WWE style, it's always the same damn chinlock. Ninety-percent of the time in a match, you know at some point somebody's gonna clinch it on.

I have no problem with the idea of rest holds because all good matches have peaks and valleys, but as some people have said at least vary them up a little. For example, Charlotte in NXT seems to rely on using a leg-scissors hold as her main "rest hold" That's at least different. Or Rowan with that knuckle-lock thing he does.

If you're going to have people use rest holds, at least mix it up a little. Or if for some inane reason it has to be the same damn hold every time, make it come across as more effective then it already does. Maybe start having squash matches where guys start losing because of those chin locks, enhancement talent obviously. Maybe then if you make those moves look to be dangerous then people will actually be able to buy them as dangerous. Or at least have the commentator's explain how crippling the hold is instead of sitting around cracking jokes about pop culture all the time.

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2014 18:25:53 GMT -5 Muskrat said:

Sept 29, 2014 12:26:50 GMT -5 @lovehater said:

It's a part of wrestling. I don't agree at all with JR, that they should act like it's some crazy MMA submission and desperately try to flail out of the devastating chinlock. It's not a submission hold. It's a way for the wrestler to conserve energy, kayfabe or no, while continuing to lean on his opponent and sap their strength. It's not supposed to be exciting, it's supposed to be a lull in the action. Fans now have less patience and the matches are so spot-heavy that everyone's just waiting for the last half of the match where all the cool stuff happens.

The reason it sucks now is that WWE's style is so formulaic. Formula is also a part of wrestling, but they've gotten way lazier about mixing up said formula, I guess because "everyone knows it's fake so who cares" or some other defeatist garbage.

What they could do it make it more of a heel thing, like get your feet on the ropes to apply more pressure, then the ref would look and he'd get down, etc. Cesaro pulled this with an abdominal stretch on Smackdown, I was very happy.

That's where I think the issue is now. 90% of WWE matches are so paint by numbers now, that you can predict most matches (quite possibly down to the high spots) before the entrances are finished. Inside the context of a good match, there's nothing wrong with restholds, they give you a chance to breathe, but when the restholds are at the exact same cue as the match before, with the exact same babyface shine coming out of it, it's boring as f***.

There was a point in the Big Show/Rusev match on RAW a good 5 minutes in where big show irish whipped rusev (Probably the 4th time he had done so) and immediately in my head I thought "Here's where rusev shoulders Big Show's leg". When it happened I didn't feel clever for figuring it out. I actually felt kinda stupid for watching.

[bootytea]

I can not stand when the referee lifts their arm and they suddenly feel better before the third drop. They could at least have occasions where someone keeps their arm up before the second drop.

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

Oh, and how Booker T just happens to have opponents who bend over for minutes in anticipation of his axe kick.

Then there is this weird thing that a dropkick hurts more if you don't connect with your opponent.

I could go on with WWE style routines that need to be modified.

[Adam Black]

Sept 30, 2014 11:30:39 GMT -5 bootytea said:

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

It's almost like Rey is deliberately putting them there holy shit. Never got the 619 hate it's like complaining why they run when they get irish whipped the answer is f***ing there because someone set them up to it.

[Vice honcho room temperature]

Sept 30, 2014 11:52:25 GMT -5 Adam Black said:

Sept 30, 2014 11:30:39 GMT -5 bootytea said:

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

It's almost like Rey is deliberately putting them there holy shit. Never got the 619 hate it's like complaining why they run when the get irish whipped the answer is f***ing there because someone set them up to it.

Also you see it lots of times from the slap that Christian does, to the Bossman knee that some do, and to the one where Henry jumps throw the 2nd rope crushing the guy.

[angryfan]

Sept 30, 2014 11:52:25 GMT -5 Adam Black said:

Sept 30, 2014 11:30:39 GMT -5 bootytea said:

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

It's almost like Rey is deliberately putting them there holy shit. Never got the 619 hate it's like complaining why they run when they get irish whipped the answer is f***ing there because someone set them up to it.

I've legitimately been Irish whipped, and I can tell you it does give you that momentum, at least momentarily, of "If I don't move, I'm falling on my face". I see the pro-wrestling version as just a turned up version of it. The 619...sometimes I'm ok with it, but often it's "Hey, Rey drop kicked him in the middle of the ring, now he's staggering 10 feet and falling down on the ropes". That's HBK/Hogan levels of over-selling for a set-up.

[bootytea]

Sept 30, 2014 11:52:25 GMT -5 Adam Black said:

Sept 30, 2014 11:30:39 GMT -5 bootytea said:

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

It's almost like Rey is deliberately putting them there holy shit. Never got the 619 hate it's like complaining why they run when they get irish whipped the answer is f***ing there because someone set them up to it.

Yes, but when everybody else "sets them up" in a similar way, they always fall flat on their face and roll out.

I find it a bit hard to believe that Rey has such an impeccable control of gravity despite the varying sizes of his opponents.  

[benstudd]

Wrestling is not a videogame it has to have different pace, you have to have different speed, you have to have those submissions. I mean rest holds are a way to damage your opponant. But the most obvious ones like Orton squeezing the neck should be phased out. But say Rusev damaging Henry's back and then giving him a bear hug is a great way to go about it. It should be clearer that it's a strayegy to hurt the other guy. But reading most of the thread, it seems like most posters have come to the same conclusion.

[benstudd]

Sept 30, 2014 11:30:39 GMT -5 bootytea said:

I can not stand when the referee lifts their arm and they suddenly feel better before the third drop. They could at least have occasions where someone keeps their arm up before the second drop.

It's also as annoying as the 619 setup because you never see anyone fall on the ropes like that unless they take on Rey.

Oh, and how Booker T just happens to have opponents who bend over for minutes in anticipation of his axe kick.

Then there is this weird thing that a dropkick hurts more if you don't connect with your opponent.

I could go on with WWE style routines that need to be modified.

I feel the same way with Rollins' finisher that you feel about Booker T's move.

[sportatorium]

Sept 29, 2014 16:59:23 GMT -5 Boo! said:

What annoys me about retrospective canonisation of someone like Jake Roberts is that fans today would boo the crap out of him because "ring psychology" often didn't involve doing that much and a slower pace. Jake Roberts today would get the "boring" chant inside 3 minutes by the same fans who pretend to be so impressed with his work.

The art of psychology and telling  a story and a match having its own self-contained narrative is dead because "rest holds are boring now". Go back 20 years and watch those now lauded as ring-masters and generals and see how much wouldn't get crapped on by todays audience. It's not a lot.

I think this is why storylines barely last a segment nowadays too. If it isn't done fast and five minutes ago we get bored. It's a disease that has helped ruin wrestling for a lot of people. There's simply no scope for narrative either inside the ring or in a storyline arc. 

This says more about the crowd than anything else. Jake Roberts would work people into a frenzy loving or hating him just to see if he could hit a DDT. His wrestling style compliments his persona/mic work. Randy Orton draws a ton from Jake & generally has great matches. He gets crapped on more for his mic work than his wrestling.

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Sept 29, 2014 11:21:44 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

This is why Daniel Bryan is one of the best of all time - he will grind in and make every hold work, even if it's just an abdominal stretch. He never looks like he's resting when he puts a hold on.

I always see that as one of his Regal-isms, something he's picked up from him. I always like it when Regal gets his opponent in a hold trapping the arm and starts working the fingers etc. IMO, every heel should be doing shit like that, taking advantage when their opponent can't escape, maximising the damage they're doing.

[Deleted]

I don't mind restholds. it gives a bit of time for a breather, lets the announcers get over a few points calmly and it makes the fast paced exciting bits feel more exciting.



think of a wrestling match like a rollercoaster, if the rollercoaster just kept going down it would get boring fast, you need those slow climbing bits to balance it out.

[HMARK Center]

Oct 3, 2014 6:32:25 GMT -5 "Gentleman" AJ Powell said:

Sept 29, 2014 11:21:44 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

This is why Daniel Bryan is one of the best of all time - he will grind in and make every hold work, even if it's just an abdominal stretch. He never looks like he's resting when he puts a hold on.

I always see that as one of his Regal-isms, something he's picked up from him. I always like it when Regal gets his opponent in a hold trapping the arm and starts working the fingers etc. IMO, every heel should be doing shit like that, taking advantage when their opponent can't escape, maximising the damage they're doing.

Yeah, he's always been a master of that. He could have a guy down in typical chinlock position, but instead he'd throw their arms back, expose the opponent's chests, and start digging his elbow into the guy's ribs. The psychology is simple: attack a guy's ribs, and not only is he sore, he's sore every time he takes in a breath. If breathing becomes difficult, the guy will lose his strength, won't be able to lift you as easily, can't withstand a submission hold for as long, etc. It worked even better when Danielson doing that would have an effect on the outcome of the match, like the guy not being able to put him up in his finisher because he's too sore/isn't breathing well/etc.

That's the type of stuff that can make wrestling great: attention to detail, and making sure everything you do has a purpose. That's where the annoyance with simple chinlocks come in; if they were done in a way that played into the overall match psychology and story, they'd be fine, but too often wrestlers slap them on in a naked attempt to catch their breath. Matches DO need lulls in the action; no story is action 100% of the time, and even ones that come close are pretty rare. But you don't want your lulls to be pointless or take the audience out of the story; they should compliment the story being told.

A vintage ROH example is the second Samoa Joe/CM Punk world title match, where the story was that they had gone to a 60 minute draw in their first match, so Punk decided he'd spend most of the second match putting Joe in headlocks, to wear the bigger man out before 60 minutes were up. He ALMOST succeeds, too, as by the end of the match Joe is in position to possibly take Punk's finihser...but then the time runs out, and now the story becomes "Punk had a smart strategy...but Joe is that good, and could withstand it." All of that with just simple headlocks.

Of course, the final ingredient is that fans will accept restholds more if they already care about the wrestlers in the ring; fans are infinitely more forgiving of wrestlers they're emotionally invested in doing something like that then they are of guys they're bored with or don't care for in the first place.

[Deleted]

I'd like the heel to take the face down for a bit and just heel it up for the crowd while they both recover. Helps out.