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Post by ChitownKnight on Sept 29, 2014 17:12:53 GMT -5
With Cena coming close to beating Flair's record, who would you say had the bigger legacy in pro wrestling? Flair has held 16 world titles in different companies and was a top guy in those promotions and is a household name. Cena has been THE top guy in the WWE for a decade. Cena hasnt been the top guy in a boom period but I would say hes also a household name. What do you guys think?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 17:18:04 GMT -5
Ric Flair.
Undoubtedly. No joke, it's Flair. This guy has been around since the early 70s wrestling. Grandparents who didn't watch wrestling know of Flair. My parents knew more of Flair than of Austin and Rock who they saw regularly on tv. John Cena? He's great but you put Flair's legacy to Cena's and it's a no contest. It isn't about the amount of titles you have but the impact of your wrestling legacy. Ric's been relevant for over 40 years. Cena's been relevant for 12.
Big difference.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
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Something Witty Here.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Sept 29, 2014 17:22:04 GMT -5
Ric Flair easily. And it isn't even close.
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deancubed
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Playing League of Legends
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Post by deancubed on Sept 29, 2014 17:25:13 GMT -5
We can officially debate this when Cena is in his 70s. Cena may still have a Flair-like second career as a manager, GM, or what have you, or a role behind the scenes. Who knows what Cena will accomplish in the next 2 or 3 decades. That's like asking if Sami Zayn's legacy is as big as HHH's! One guy is just starting compared to the other guy.
Cena hasn't even gotten a chance to be on TV when Attitude Era stars are all gone from TV.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Sept 29, 2014 17:28:32 GMT -5
To play devils advocate - I think more young people who'll be the next generation of wrestlers and wrestling fans know of John Cena than do of Ric Flair now.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Sept 29, 2014 17:30:28 GMT -5
Flair by far...
He has a far more colorful career. He wrestled for several companies, became the guy for each of them, and was part of wrestling's 2 biggest national booms. He was also around for wrestling's evolution over the last thirty years.
All that without going into his legacy as champion, his opponents or matches.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Sept 29, 2014 17:47:20 GMT -5
Someone needs to give Cena a pity vote.
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 29, 2014 17:47:29 GMT -5
I will say Cena, if he doesn't do anything too dumb by the time he is as old as Flair.
Flair's got his legacy, but it really comes off as tainted now.
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StuntGranny®
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Not Actually a Granny
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Post by StuntGranny® on Sept 29, 2014 17:48:34 GMT -5
Ric Flair. I don't see how anyone could say otherwise.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Sept 29, 2014 17:52:00 GMT -5
If we take the question literally: Flair's been married numerous times and steroids cause shrinkage. So no contest there either.
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Post by The Trashman on Sept 29, 2014 17:55:42 GMT -5
This is a joke right?
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Sept 29, 2014 17:59:36 GMT -5
What's next? Who's the more important star in wrestling history, Hogan Vs. Daniel Bryan!
Lets maybe wait until they're at equal points in their career and nostalgia can set in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 17:59:46 GMT -5
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that Flair is/was a strong enough character that he could get his ass kicked, like, a lot without any concern if it burying him.
No such luck with Cena. He's booked goofy strong at least like 85% of the time and he actually loses maybe 1.5% of that remaining 15% and even then, there's usually a rubberband comeuppance in the form of a match or promo.
He's been smashed through. It doesn't cheapen what he's accomplished or any of the good matches he has turned in, but I don't think there's a that strong an argument for him in this.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 29, 2014 18:00:49 GMT -5
This seems silly to debate while Cena hasn't retired yet. Different eras, different rubricks.
Flair has had a more influential role as far as being in many ways the prototypical heel champion, and he was
Cena easily stomps Flair as far as popular consciousness goes, though, in part since different eras, naturally. Flair was a bit player in the late 90s, and he was on a glorified retirement tour in the 00s. He was never in a position to benefit from TV roles, films, or advertisements much. Wrestling fans know Flair, and not many others do.
It might sound like I am being harsh to Flair, but no, I'm really not. He was basically Mr. Territory System, and his system didn't just lose, it died a crushing death, smeared into a paste by the WWF having better marketing and other advantages, and of the remaining life left in the system, WCW and ECW emerged from its vestiges and finally splattered the beast on the decline, realizing the NWA had nothing left to give them and had become a parasite.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Sept 29, 2014 18:18:25 GMT -5
Why are we even asking?
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Post by Baby, it’s Jes outside on Sept 29, 2014 18:23:29 GMT -5
Flair of course. Years from now, John Cena probably won't even crack the top 20, but people will still be talking about Flair being the best of all-time.
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Emmet Russell
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Post by Emmet Russell on Sept 29, 2014 18:37:56 GMT -5
John Cena deserves it at this point.
The amount of charity he does and all the promotion he does for the company; he's the best ambassador they've ever had. The guy has had more than a few great, five star matches over the years and more than holds his own on the mic. When he's not given cheesy material I'd say he's one of the top talkers in the history of the company; few have ever done better serious promos than Cena.
Ric Flair has tarnished so much of his legacy for me. Coming out of retirement to bleed on a Hulkamiania tour and in TNA really hurt his reputation. Add in the fact that he seems like a genuine asshole who can't let go of the past and the fact that he's not thirty-years old anymore - the way he acts is embarrassing. Case-in-point being the panel he was on last year which end up costing JR his job just because Flair couldn't avoid drinking like a teenager at a rave and making an idiot out of everyone.
He's a disgrace and when you lose the aura of him being "The Nature Boy" then there's not much left that's great about him. People can get on Cena for "the same old shit", but Flair was so much worse; every match was the same. I'm not saying he wasn't good in his prime, but that was 25 years ago and everything he's done since, and the ways he's acted, have tarnished his legacy.
Sadly, people will still say Flair because he's old and that means he must be respected. Cena's legacy will end up being the guy who split the crowd every night. He deserves a better one, but that's what it's going to be. So the answer to this question will always, unfortunately, be Flair.
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Post by angryfan on Sept 29, 2014 19:07:41 GMT -5
John Cena deserves it at this point. The amount of charity he does and all the promotion he does for the company; he's the best ambassador they've ever had. The guy has had more than a few great, five star matches over the years and more than holds his own on the mic. When he's not given cheesy material I'd say he's one of the top talkers in the history of the company; few have ever done better serious promos than Cena. Ric Flair has tarnished so much of his legacy for me. Coming out of retirement to bleed on a Hulkamiania tour and in TNA really hurt his reputation. Add in the fact that he seems like a genuine asshole who can't let go of the past and the fact that he's not thirty-years old anymore - the way he acts is embarrassing. Case-in-point being the panel he was on last year which end up costing JR his job just because Flair couldn't avoid drinking like a teenager at a rave and making an idiot out of everyone. He's a disgrace and when you lose the aura of him being "The Nature Boy" then there's not much left that's great about him. People can get on Cena for "the same old shit", but Flair was so much worse; every match was the same. I'm not saying he wasn't good in his prime, but that was 25 years ago and everything he's done since, and the ways he's acted, have tarnished his legacy. Sadly, people will still say Flair because he's old and that means he must be respected. Cena's legacy will end up being the guy who split the crowd every night. He deserves a better one, but that's what it's going to be. So the answer to this question will always, unfortunately, be Flair. Not sure what we're going for here, but I'll bite. Flair is a train-wreck in his personal life, we all know that, but when the choices are "burned out old man who has nothing left and is spiraling" or "guy in his prime whose image is more protected than any other celebrity of the last twenty years", the "glass house" analogy fits. Moreover, it has nothing to do with the on screen, in ring legacy. If Flair's legacy is ruined, so is Hogan's, so is Rock's, because they all came back "past their prime". Thing is, twenty years from now, so will Cena. I can say this with a high degree of certainty because his behavior pattern, his own words, and the "real guy" stuff that comes out, it all points to him being Flair or Funk because, even when he can't do it, it'll be all he has. Money will be there, but for a guy who has sated he won't get married or have kids because it will take away from his time doing his job, well, when the job goes away all the money in the world won't scratch the itch. So I can almost guarantee we'll see a broken down Cena doing his schtick in 2030 as a nostalgia act. Then, and only then, can we make the Flair comparison or determine who has the better legacy, because the question will deal with equal data.
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
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Posts: 12,526
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Post by Emmet Russell on Sept 29, 2014 19:22:15 GMT -5
John Cena deserves it at this point. The amount of charity he does and all the promotion he does for the company; he's the best ambassador they've ever had. The guy has had more than a few great, five star matches over the years and more than holds his own on the mic. When he's not given cheesy material I'd say he's one of the top talkers in the history of the company; few have ever done better serious promos than Cena. Ric Flair has tarnished so much of his legacy for me. Coming out of retirement to bleed on a Hulkamiania tour and in TNA really hurt his reputation. Add in the fact that he seems like a genuine asshole who can't let go of the past and the fact that he's not thirty-years old anymore - the way he acts is embarrassing. Case-in-point being the panel he was on last year which end up costing JR his job just because Flair couldn't avoid drinking like a teenager at a rave and making an idiot out of everyone. He's a disgrace and when you lose the aura of him being "The Nature Boy" then there's not much left that's great about him. People can get on Cena for "the same old shit", but Flair was so much worse; every match was the same. I'm not saying he wasn't good in his prime, but that was 25 years ago and everything he's done since, and the ways he's acted, have tarnished his legacy. Sadly, people will still say Flair because he's old and that means he must be respected. Cena's legacy will end up being the guy who split the crowd every night. He deserves a better one, but that's what it's going to be. So the answer to this question will always, unfortunately, be Flair. Not sure what we're going for here, but I'll bite. Flair is a train-wreck in his personal life, we all know that, but when the choices are "burned out old man who has nothing left and is spiraling" or "guy in his prime whose image is more protected than any other celebrity of the last twenty years", the "glass house" analogy fits. Moreover, it has nothing to do with the on screen, in ring legacy. If Flair's legacy is ruined, so is Hogan's, so is Rock's, because they all came back "past their prime". Thing is, twenty years from now, so will Cena. I can say this with a high degree of certainty because his behavior pattern, his own words, and the "real guy" stuff that comes out, it all points to him being Flair or Funk because, even when he can't do it, it'll be all he has. Money will be there, but for a guy who has sated he won't get married or have kids because it will take away from his time doing his job, well, when the job goes away all the money in the world won't scratch the itch. So I can almost guarantee we'll see a broken down Cena doing his schtick in 2030 as a nostalgia act. Then, and only then, can we make the Flair comparison or determine who has the better legacy, because the question will deal with equal data. That's true, and hey, if Cena is still coming back in 2030 after his retirement and HOF induction to deliver cringe-worthy five knuckle shuffles, then he'll be hurting his legacy to me. There's a time when you need to step down and move on. People like Austin understand that and it really helps his legacy, in my eyes. He left when he was just past his best so he didn't end up going on too long and all people remember from him was the garbage years. Rock's return was harmless and he moved the torch to the new lead guy of the company, albeit 8 years too late, but I understood the idea. Flair, to me, was just never that good to begin with when he loses his aura, and that's what he's done by being a real life scumbag and all-around train wreck. He's was as manipulative as Hogan, yet praised more because he could chop and flop. Guy's had some great matches in his life, yes, but so has Cena. Cena just also happens to be a great ambassador for his company and an all-around nice guy. It's impossible to tell if his legacy will end up better than Flair's until twenty or so years from now, but I think he will and should have a better one unless he makes some terrible life decisions in that time.
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Post by bigjohnsons on Sept 29, 2014 19:28:32 GMT -5
John Cena = Goofy Man Child
Ric Flair = Coked Out Guy who would made wrestling seem cool
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