|
Post by angryfan on Sept 29, 2014 19:29:11 GMT -5
If the question is "good ambassador for the company", I'd say that we need to toss out Christopher Nowitski, since he parlayed his wrestling career into trying to save lives. Wonderful as charity work with the children is, so is trying to prevent unnecessary brain damage in children, teens, and adults alike. Yet...you know, it doesn't get the press from WWE that it should because he was never a "poster boy". I mean, all he did was get hurt and say, "How can I help people avoid traumatic brain injury?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 19:31:26 GMT -5
This seems silly to debate while Cena hasn't retired yet. Different eras, different rubricks. Flair has had a more influential role as far as being in many ways the prototypical heel champion, and he was Cena easily stomps Flair as far as popular consciousness goes, though, in part since different eras, naturally. Flair was a bit player in the late 90s, and he was on a glorified retirement tour in the 00s. He was never in a position to benefit from TV roles, films, or advertisements much. Wrestling fans know Flair, and not many others do. It might sound like I am being harsh to Flair, but no, I'm really not. He was basically Mr. Territory System, and his system didn't just lose, it died a crushing death, smeared into a paste by the WWF having better marketing and other advantages, and of the remaining life left in the system, WCW and ECW emerged from its vestiges and finally splattered the beast on the decline, realizing the NWA had nothing left to give them and had become a parasite. Definitive answer, right here. ^
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,799
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Sept 29, 2014 21:26:50 GMT -5
Cena isn't even fit to put Flair's gear in the trunk of his limo and I don't even like Flair.
|
|
Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 29, 2014 21:34:22 GMT -5
Flair in a landslide victory. Cena is only relevant to one generation of wrestling fans. Flair has multi-generational relevance. He's an icon of pro wrestling as a whole. John Cena could never claim that.
|
|
|
Post by lemonyellowson on Sept 29, 2014 22:42:20 GMT -5
this was a joke post right?
it's clearly cena.
|
|
The Possum
Unicron
JBL stands for "Just Beat a Lizard".
Posts: 3,013
|
Post by The Possum on Sept 29, 2014 23:42:42 GMT -5
Ric Flair inspired Triple H, Steve Austin, and Shawn Michaels. I have serious, serious doubts that the stars of tomorrow will be talking about how John Cena's artful performances captivated them to the point that they felt they couldn't change the channel and had to become like him.
|
|
|
Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Sept 30, 2014 0:06:32 GMT -5
Cena
Never saw Flair in his prime and don't ever want too. I saw enough of his boring, rambling, stuttering, tired old arse on his return. He never entertained me at all during his comeback years, whether it be wrestling where he stumbled through the same old dull routine time and time again or his boring, shouty, rambling promos.
Flair sucks.
|
|
|
Post by benstudd on Sept 30, 2014 3:39:27 GMT -5
Cena has no legacy.
He is the corporate Ronald McDonald that Vince chose to represent his corporation when WWE were the only game in town and didn't have to try anymore. All his titles were not earned.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 120,896
|
Post by Mozenrath on Sept 30, 2014 4:26:17 GMT -5
Cena has no legacy. He is the corporate Ronald McDonald that Vince chose to represent his corporation when WWE were the only game in town and didn't have to try anymore. All his titles were not earned. Are you suggesting the NWA didn't pick Flair? He didn't shoot wrestle Harley Race for it or something, it was handed to him because they, rightfully, thought he could make them money. That's all anyone is given the title for. Hell, Flair booked HIMSELF to win some of his titles. By your standards, his titles don't count, either, and neither do Lawler's, Dusty Rhodes', and many others. This isn't really a very good precedent to set. Hell, some NWA title holders literally paid to be champion. Is its credibility back then in question, too?
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 30, 2014 10:12:19 GMT -5
Flair. When he was in his prime, wrestling was far more competitive with dozens of companies all across America and the world and he was -the- guy, the heel they chose to travel and make others look like huge stars, influencing generations of talent. Cena, on the other hand, is at his peak in a period where wrestling is stagnant, there is nothing fresh or exciting happening and he himself has been shown to be part of the problem as he chose to kill the one recent feud he was in that worked. His character is a like a greatest hits of previous WWE booking at this point and as a result he's almost always the least interesting character in the feud he's in, which doesn't scream influential to me.
|
|
Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,219
|
Post by Push R Truth on Sept 30, 2014 10:29:36 GMT -5
I want John Cena to do the Black Scorpion gimmick against Randy Orton.
Only then will we know
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Sept 30, 2014 10:48:05 GMT -5
This seems silly to debate while Cena hasn't retired yet. Different eras, different rubricks. Flair has had a more influential role as far as being in many ways the prototypical heel champion, and he was Cena easily stomps Flair as far as popular consciousness goes, though, in part since different eras, naturally. Flair was a bit player in the late 90s, and he was on a glorified retirement tour in the 00s. He was never in a position to benefit from TV roles, films, or advertisements much. Wrestling fans know Flair, and not many others do. It might sound like I am being harsh to Flair, but no, I'm really not. He was basically Mr. Territory System, and his system didn't just lose, it died a crushing death, smeared into a paste by the WWF having better marketing and other advantages, and of the remaining life left in the system, WCW and ECW emerged from its vestiges and finally splattered the beast on the decline, realizing the NWA had nothing left to give them and had become a parasite.
|
|
lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,377
|
Post by lionheart21 on Sept 30, 2014 12:10:18 GMT -5
Flair easily, this isn't even a contest.
|
|
MiLB Fan
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,347
|
Post by MiLB Fan on Sept 30, 2014 12:52:22 GMT -5
Cena had a music video about his legacy. Can Flair say that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 13:02:18 GMT -5
Cena has no legacy. He is the corporate Ronald McDonald that Vince chose to represent his corporation when WWE were the only game in town and didn't have to try anymore. All his titles were not earned. Are you suggesting the NWA didn't pick Flair? He didn't shoot wrestle Harley Race for it or something, it was handed to him because they, rightfully, thought he could make them money. That's all anyone is given the title for. Hell, Flair booked HIMSELF to win some of his titles. By your standards, his titles don't count, either, and neither do Lawler's, Dusty Rhodes', and many others. This isn't really a very good precedent to set. Hell, some NWA title holders literally paid to be champion. Is its credibility back then in question, too? Flair drew money, though. Cena being the "Ronald McDonald" of the WWE is very accurate. He does nothing to move business. The brand sells, not any particular guy. He is just the guy who is pushed as the company mascot at a time when they don't depend on individual stars. So his push can definitely be categorized as undeserved, IMO.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 120,896
|
Post by Mozenrath on Sept 30, 2014 13:04:37 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the NWA didn't pick Flair? He didn't shoot wrestle Harley Race for it or something, it was handed to him because they, rightfully, thought he could make them money. That's all anyone is given the title for. Hell, Flair booked HIMSELF to win some of his titles. By your standards, his titles don't count, either, and neither do Lawler's, Dusty Rhodes', and many others. This isn't really a very good precedent to set. Hell, some NWA title holders literally paid to be champion. Is its credibility back then in question, too? Flair drew money, though. Cena being the "Ronald McDonald" of the WWE is very accurate. He does nothing to move business. The brand sells, not any particular guy. He is just the guy who is pushed as the company mascot at a time when they don't depend on individual stars. So his push can definitely be categorized as undeserved, IMO. Given he sells easily the most merch, I don't buy that argument, but fair enough I guess.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Sept 30, 2014 13:12:51 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the NWA didn't pick Flair? He didn't shoot wrestle Harley Race for it or something, it was handed to him because they, rightfully, thought he could make them money. That's all anyone is given the title for. Hell, Flair booked HIMSELF to win some of his titles. By your standards, his titles don't count, either, and neither do Lawler's, Dusty Rhodes', and many others. This isn't really a very good precedent to set. Hell, some NWA title holders literally paid to be champion. Is its credibility back then in question, too? Flair drew money, though. Cena being the "Ronald McDonald" of the WWE is very accurate. He does nothing to move business. The brand sells, not any particular guy. He is just the guy who is pushed as the company mascot at a time when they don't depend on individual stars. So his push can definitely be categorized as undeserved, IMO. Eh, Cena does move merchandise - HIS merchandise. As for the company as a whole, he does not. Otherwise, the network would be selling, PPV buys would be huge, and his targeted fanbase would be flocking to consume all things WWE. They are not. They are concerned with all things Cnea, and everything else including the company as its own selling point, are a distant second. Will this make Vince money? Sure it will, but it will also cripple him if the one guy whose own brand is the selling point goes away. When Hogan was THE guy, the biggest name in the industry, and his merch was flying, did they say "Well, we don't need to worry about anyone else looking like they're worth shit"? No, they didn't, because they realized that in addition to the "top guy", they also had to make the company's brand a selling point. Look, for a long time Dale Earnhart was the man in racing. Straight up, no questions, he was the guy, and his merch was everywhere. Dude was a rockstar. Did this mean that NASCAR, at the time not yet at the heights it is at now, should not brand itself, or other drivers, as important and worth buying a damn ticket to come see? Of course not. Same for Attitude Era, same for New Generation. You had a "top guy" so to speak, a focal point, but you also made the "bit players" seem important and worthy in their own right of your hard earned dollars to come see them do what they do. In Nascar, when Jeff Gordon took off as the young gun who was awesome and won a ton of stuff (sorry, I'm not a NASCAR guy, so bear with me) his merch was big, but so was Earnhart's, so were other guys. Competitive sport, whatever, the marketing department still said "People will have choices and we can make money off of all of them". The problem is that the booking since 2005/2006 has been so singular that if Cena goes away (gets hurt, goes into movies, has a nervous breakdown of Nikki using the wrong hamper hand has to be institutionalized) then what do they have? They have a lot of talented people who they have spent ten years putting in a second or third teir category with their fanbase, while the brand itself is just kinda there. This can cripple them worse than anything.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 13:44:56 GMT -5
Punk moved merchandise too. Has business gone any differently since he left?
There are no more draws, save for special attractions like Rock. Cena is just the most pushed guy in a brand that sells itself. Business going up or down has no correlation to any particular guy anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Digital Witness on Sept 30, 2014 14:11:07 GMT -5
Flair and its not even close. I'd argue that there are many "legacies" as you'd call them that Cena won't even come close to. Hogan, Austin, Rock.
I see Cena as a Triple H level talent that had the rocket strapped to him. Nothing more, nothing less.
|
|
|
Post by Kiaraa on Sept 30, 2014 14:15:00 GMT -5
This seems silly to debate while Cena hasn't retired yet. Different eras, different rubricks. Flair has had a more influential role as far as being in many ways the prototypical heel champion, and he was Cena easily stomps Flair as far as popular consciousness goes, though, in part since different eras, naturally. Flair was a bit player in the late 90s, and he was on a glorified retirement tour in the 00s. He was never in a position to benefit from TV roles, films, or advertisements much. Wrestling fans know Flair, and not many others do. It might sound like I am being harsh to Flair, but no, I'm really not. He was basically Mr. Territory System, and his system didn't just lose, it died a crushing death, smeared into a paste by the WWF having better marketing and other advantages, and of the remaining life left in the system, WCW and ECW emerged from its vestiges and finally splattered the beast on the decline, realizing the NWA had nothing left to give them and had become a parasite. This. Cena is far, far more popular than Flair ever was with non-wrestling audience. And I'm clearly surprised with Cena getting such low votes, though it's an unfair comparison still. Oh yes, haters will hate.
|
|