Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 30, 2014 14:31:42 GMT -5
This seems silly to debate while Cena hasn't retired yet. Different eras, different rubricks. Flair has had a more influential role as far as being in many ways the prototypical heel champion, and he was Cena easily stomps Flair as far as popular consciousness goes, though, in part since different eras, naturally. Flair was a bit player in the late 90s, and he was on a glorified retirement tour in the 00s. He was never in a position to benefit from TV roles, films, or advertisements much. Wrestling fans know Flair, and not many others do. It might sound like I am being harsh to Flair, but no, I'm really not. He was basically Mr. Territory System, and his system didn't just lose, it died a crushing death, smeared into a paste by the WWF having better marketing and other advantages, and of the remaining life left in the system, WCW and ECW emerged from its vestiges and finally splattered the beast on the decline, realizing the NWA had nothing left to give them and had become a parasite. This. Cena is far, far more popular than Flair ever was with non-wrestling audience. And I'm clearly surprised with Cena getting such low votes, though it's an unfair comparison still. Oh yes, haters will hate. I think it's more that, while it's someone people currently dislike, sure, but much more of it is that Ric Flair has a decades head start. "Who has a better legacy, Barbra Streisand or Taylor Swift?" would be bullshit-rigged, too, or "What about NES versus PS3?" We're comparing an existing legacy to a bunch of what-ifs. No one comes out on top in that matchup, from Cena to Punk to Triple H and Undertaker, arguably.
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Post by angryfan on Sept 30, 2014 14:56:59 GMT -5
This. Cena is far, far more popular than Flair ever was with non-wrestling audience. And I'm clearly surprised with Cena getting such low votes, though it's an unfair comparison still. Oh yes, haters will hate. I think it's more that, while it's someone people currently dislike, sure, but much more of it is that Ric Flair has a decades head start. "Who has a better legacy, Barbra Streisand or Taylor Swift?" would be bullshit-rigged, too, or "What about NES versus PS3?" We're comparing an existing legacy to a bunch of what-ifs. No one comes out on top in that matchup, from Cena to Punk to Triple H and Undertaker, arguably. Bingo. Active vs. historical is tough. Historical vs. historical can be done. I mean, Flair vs. Lou Thesz might work, or Gagne, or something like that. There are just too many hypotheticals at this point. We could see the business boom again, or we could see attendance go to 1995 levels. The network could turn around and be HUGE and have 2 million subscribers by this time next year, or it could go the way of the XFL. Cena could turn heel, he could stay face and a heel come along that made him get the Hogan-like reactions that WWE has clearly wanted since 2005. We could see him turn into Rock and go Hollywood and start making movies instead of wrestling, or we could see him be Flair and keep doing the same thing well past his prime even though his body won't hold up anymore. Exposure, too, is a thing. THe Streisand/Swift comparison works to a large degree. One was a huge star for a long time, made boatloads of cash, and was world-renowned, the other is making lots of money too, and both had very targeted, very dedicated demographics. But longevity plus memory, plus the fact that both have groups that see the performer as "theirs" means that totally removing bias becomes difficult.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 30, 2014 15:41:56 GMT -5
Cena has no legacy. He is the corporate Ronald McDonald that Vince chose to represent his corporation when WWE were the only game in town and didn't have to try anymore. All his titles were not earned. "Corporate Ronald McDonald" is still a spot that Cena had to earn through talent and hard work.
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Post by benstudd on Oct 1, 2014 0:43:42 GMT -5
Cena has no legacy. He is the corporate Ronald McDonald that Vince chose to represent his corporation when WWE were the only game in town and didn't have to try anymore. All his titles were not earned. "Corporate Ronald McDonald" is still a spot that Cena had to earn through talent and hard work. Anybody can work hard.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Oct 1, 2014 10:48:29 GMT -5
It's also hard to make the comparison because Flair routinely shows up to this day on current RAW/NXT programming, in active storylines. So his 'run' so to speak ain't done.
Who knows Flair could potentially even end up winning another WHC against Lesnar to make him 17 time before Cena can close the gap! /thehorror
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 11:05:07 GMT -5
Flair will always get upvoted (rightfully) in these polls as Flair is a legend amongst wrestling fans, whilst many people dislike what he's become the present cannot take away the legendary 4 decade main event career he had. Whilst he took things off Bockwinkel and various other wrestlers in interview style, Flair will be remembered as one of the premier talkers due to being so damned charismatic and it feeling somewhat new, plus he has the advantage (and disadvantage in his personal life) of ALWAYS acting like the Nature Boy, so he doesn't come across as a disingenuous/inconsistent character the way Cena does.
Therein lies the problem, as others have pointed out Cena was born in a homogenized era and represents some of the dullest/least natural parts of pro-wrestling in character terms. He's a walking billboard for as many pieces of merch can be painted on at any one time, whilst heel Flair wore Rolex's and expensive suits to remind people "you can't afford THIS", Cena is the face wearing $20 tees/$5 wrist bands/$10 bizarre wash cloths Joesixpack can buy in the stands.
And he's still going, past his prime in my opinion (in ring and in character), but Cena is still a key star to the WWE as an active competitor. For all we know he could have an additional 5 years where he becomes the most natural, interesting & consistent wrestler in the world. After that happens we may be able to compare things without it being so lopsided.
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Post by g1megatronfan on Oct 1, 2014 11:18:54 GMT -5
Please.
John Cena's been given the title 15 times in 9 years. Kinda shows you how meaningless the title has become. It took Flair years to get that many reigns. No comparison here at all.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 1, 2014 13:25:23 GMT -5
Please. John Cena's been given the title 15 times in 9 years. Kinda shows you how meaningless the title has become. It took Flair years to get that many reigns. No comparison here at all. Kevin Nash once literally handed Flair the title, which he lost in the same night, if I recall. That kind of shows how meaningful the WCW title was, doesn't it?
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Post by James Fabiano on Oct 1, 2014 13:27:48 GMT -5
Really? ? Seriously, I count any "achievement" by any wrestler Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars and up to have an asterisk by it. AKA the time after wrestling was "outed" by the wrestlers.
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Post by jamofpearls on Oct 1, 2014 14:10:47 GMT -5
Flair by a god damned country mile.
Flair by so much, he's come back around and lapped Cena.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 1, 2014 14:13:38 GMT -5
IMO Flair's 2 years in WWE were more interesting than Cena's 12
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