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Post by 2CSultan on Oct 19, 2014 13:01:35 GMT -5
I don't think it was the Cena feud as much as it was Cena killing the whole Family 2 weeks after Summerslam. It was such lazy booking to kill off your top heel stable to make it look like Superman wasn't fazed by Brock.
Even if Cena would've came out hot and then the Wyatt's took over that night because of numbers it would've told a better story and not killed Bray's heat.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Oct 19, 2014 13:26:05 GMT -5
As I've said in other threads about the Wyatts, you have got to let them do something of significance. Forcibly convert superstars, seriously mentally screw up somebody long term (not in the faux-Cena way where he never actually crosses a line), put people on the shelf, win any kind of title. WWE wants Cena to beat Bray, fine. But one can't do that, then keep the Wyatt Family doing the same generic shtick for the next few months, and still expect people to care.
Why should anyone be intimidated by them by now? You'll get beaten up by Harper and Rowan a few times, get some creepy promos directed at you, and worst comes to worst get pinned at the PPV which given how little wins and losses mean, amounts to very little. For god's sake Bryan and Cena both lost to Bray, and won the WWE title within two months afterwards. Jericho lost to him and was so traumatized... that he then got into a quickie feud with Orton and the stuff with Wyatt was forgotten as quickly as it began.
The problem with the booking is that winning streaks and getting major wins against the likes of Cena are not the only way to get people over and have people care, but seemingly those appear to be the only ways WWE knows. Hence there's no cool angles or interesting character stuff for the likes of a Bray Wyatt to fall back on when he fails against Cena, just as Sandow couldn't until he discovered the likes of the Mizdow character, which shock of shocks, is an entertaining and different gimmick/character than what we've been seen recently and who would have thunk it, has gotten him over with crowds. If you go back, upper-card guys back in the Rock N'Wrestling era could fail against the likes of Hogan or Savage, but were fine because there was enough character investment and character specific angles/feuds immediately following that still kept them important.
Launching guys into the stratosphere against Cena is fine. Doing so without a safety net for them when they fall back down isn't.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Oct 19, 2014 16:32:56 GMT -5
I don't think it was the Cena feud as much as it was Cena killing the whole Family 2 weeks after Summerslam. It was such lazy booking to kill off your top heel stable to make it look like Superman wasn't fazed by Brock. Even if Cena would've came out hot and then the Wyatt's took over that night because of numbers it would've told a better story and not killed Bray's heat. His position was the card was to job to Cena. Cena had to be a believable threat to Brock. Wyatt was about get taken off TV. It's not as if WWE were desperate to make Bray a main eventer in that month, but didn't realise that having the Wyatt family eat Cena finishers would make them look weaker than Cena. They know exactly what they are doing when they do something like that. The Wyatt's had a position on the card and looked stronger than some and weaker than others based on that. It's that simple. If Bray comes back and they want him to be a legit main eventer, he will be.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 19, 2014 16:56:07 GMT -5
Everybody knows (or should know by now) that WWE has a ladder for their talent. It is a real, literal ladder. I don't think you know what the word 'literal' means. Although that does make for an amusing visual image. It's the ladder Gorilla Monsoon used to rescue people who were literally hanging from the rafters.
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Post by 2CSultan on Oct 19, 2014 17:04:36 GMT -5
I don't think it was the Cena feud as much as it was Cena killing the whole Family 2 weeks after Summerslam. It was such lazy booking to kill off your top heel stable to make it look like Superman wasn't fazed by Brock. Even if Cena would've came out hot and then the Wyatt's took over that night because of numbers it would've told a better story and not killed Bray's heat. His position was the card was to job to Cena. Cena had to be a believable threat to Brock. Wyatt was about get taken off TV. It's not as if WWE were desperate to make Bray a main eventer in that month, but didn't realise that having the Wyatt family eat Cena finishers would make them look weaker than Cena. They know exactly what they are doing when they do something like that. The Wyatt's had a position on the card and looked stronger than some and weaker than others based on that. It's that simple. If Bray comes back and they want him to be a legit main eventer, he will be. I disagree that they know exactly what they're doing. That still doesn't make any sense long term. You only have established stars get destroyed if they're going off TV. Even if he was being taken off TV, do you want the fans last memory of Bray to be getting destroyed by Super Cena? How can he be taken seriously when he comes back? Now, I will agree, they had to do something with Cena because they booked themselves into a corner. Cena should've been off TV for at least a month after Summerslam, but that's an argument for another day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 17:06:02 GMT -5
Cena is poopy.
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Jeff Mangum PI
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Oct 19, 2014 17:27:53 GMT -5
For me, it's more of the fact that WWE didn't actually do anything with them.
-Debut feud with Kane -Kane returns and makes no mention of the Wyatts at all -Feud with Kofi Kingston & the Miz (Seriously?) -Tag Team against Bryan & Punk, Bryan and Punk win -"Convert" Daniel Bryan for all of two weeks -Bray beats Bryan in a match no one remembers -Feud with the Shield -The Wyatts win in a talked-about match! -Bray feuds with Cena -Cenawinslol -Wyatt Family has multiple title matches with the Usos -Usos win every title match -Bray feuds with Jericho -Bray wins in a feud that absolutely no one cares about -Wyatts get buried so John Cena can prove he's totally gonna whip Lesnar's ass at NoC
What part of any of this is supposed to make anyone take Bray Wyatt or the Wyatt Family seriously? They're a combined 7-7 for PPV matches, they've won no titles, and they've converted one guy that didn't even last.
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H-Virus
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Post by H-Virus on Oct 19, 2014 17:41:28 GMT -5
I don't think you know what the word 'literal' means. Although that does make for an amusing visual image. It's the ladder Gorilla Monsoon used to rescue people who were literally hanging from the rafters. I was far more confused the time that he claimed the crowd was 'Literally going bananas!', because I have no idea what that would do to a person.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Oct 20, 2014 1:53:25 GMT -5
His position was the card was to job to Cena. Cena had to be a believable threat to Brock. Wyatt was about get taken off TV. It's not as if WWE were desperate to make Bray a main eventer in that month, but didn't realise that having the Wyatt family eat Cena finishers would make them look weaker than Cena. They know exactly what they are doing when they do something like that. The Wyatt's had a position on the card and looked stronger than some and weaker than others based on that. It's that simple. If Bray comes back and they want him to be a legit main eventer, he will be. I disagree that they know exactly what they're doing. That still doesn't make any sense long term. You only have established stars get destroyed if they're going off TV. Even if he was being taken off TV, do you want the fans last memory of Bray to be getting destroyed by Super Cena? How can he be taken seriously when he comes back? Now, I will agree, they had to do something with Cena because they booked themselves into a corner. Cena should've been off TV for at least a month after Summerslam, but that's an argument for another day. It honestly doesn't matter. If they want to make Bray a threat, he will come back, win a few matches clean against established stars and that's what people will remember and perceive his status to be. No one will care that 2 months ago he took a few finishes in a 6 man tag, and No one is not going to buy him as a threat if he beats who he should be beating. They can build anyone up or knock anyone down depending on whay they want, and the machine allows them to do that. It's happened constantly with jobbers coming back repackaged and being built up. This whole 'why should I buy them as a threat?' line is never relevant, unless they continued to be booked as far too many rungs down their ladder to be believable against the guy they are facing.
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Post by 2CSultan on Oct 20, 2014 21:24:36 GMT -5
I disagree that they know exactly what they're doing. That still doesn't make any sense long term. You only have established stars get destroyed if they're going off TV. Even if he was being taken off TV, do you want the fans last memory of Bray to be getting destroyed by Super Cena? How can he be taken seriously when he comes back? Now, I will agree, they had to do something with Cena because they booked themselves into a corner. Cena should've been off TV for at least a month after Summerslam, but that's an argument for another day. It honestly doesn't matter. If they want to make Bray a threat, he will come back, win a few matches clean against established stars and that's what people will remember and perceive his status to be. No one will care that 2 months ago he took a few finishes in a 6 man tag, and No one is not going to buy him as a threat if he beats who he should be beating. They can build anyone up or knock anyone down depending on whay they want, and the machine allows them to do that. It's happened constantly with jobbers coming back repackaged and being built up. This whole 'why should I buy them as a threat?' line is never relevant, unless they continued to be booked as far too many rungs down their ladder to be believable against the guy they are facing. I still don't understand this line of thinking and never will. You're right, they can build up and tear down whoever they want whenever they want. They also don't have any over main event stars besides Cena and Lesnar. Their ratings are down, business is flat, the Network isn't doing the business they want it to. But go ahead and keep doing what they've done for the past 10 years because they're the machine and they can do what they want. The fans will never be smart enough to remember something that happened a few months ago....
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The Possum
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Post by The Possum on Oct 20, 2014 21:43:13 GMT -5
Honestly, I think it's just that they had no follow up for Bray. The Cena feud definitely elevated him, but then after that they just threw him in the MITB match. His character wasn't about winning the WWE Championship, and he didn't stand out in a mix of seven guys. Then after that, the Jericho program was way weaker than it should have been. They over exposed him, didn't plan long term, and stopped thinking outside of the box.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 21, 2014 5:21:49 GMT -5
It's standard WWE booking, no matter how good they may be at what they do, there is seldom a plan for a heel after they've feuded with and been defeated by the top face so it's all downhill from there. The lucky ones get put into a feud with the next in line and may even get a few victories there, but most just sink like a stone and may get a face turn long after people have stopped caring because wrestlers are seen as expendable.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Oct 21, 2014 8:25:19 GMT -5
For me, it's more of the fact that WWE didn't actually do anything with them. -Debut feud with Kane -Kane returns and makes no mention of the Wyatts at all -Feud with Kofi Kingston & the Miz (Seriously?) -Tag Team against Bryan & Punk, Bryan and Punk win -"Convert" Daniel Bryan for all of two weeks -Bray beats Bryan in a match no one remembers -Feud with the Shield -The Wyatts win in a talked-about match! -Bray feuds with Cena -Cenawinslol -Wyatt Family has multiple title matches with the Usos -Usos win every title match -Bray feuds with Jericho -Bray wins in a feud that absolutely no one cares about -Wyatts get buried so John Cena can prove he's totally gonna whip Lesnar's ass at NoC What part of any of this is supposed to make anyone take Bray Wyatt or the Wyatt Family seriously? They're a combined 7-7 for PPV matches, they've won no titles, and they've converted one guy that didn't even last. Agreed. Same issue with Ryback. Cena got blamed for killing his heat but his path was almost exactly the same as the Wyatts only he lost more feuds; Loses to Punk, Loses to The Shield, loses to Mark Henry, turns heel and then loses to Cena, Wins feud against Jericho, allies with Heyman and loses to Punk some more.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 21, 2014 8:36:24 GMT -5
Honestly, I think it's just that they had no follow up for Bray. The Cena feud definitely elevated him, but then after that they just threw him in the MITB match. His character wasn't about winning the WWE Championship, and he didn't stand out in a mix of seven guys. Then after that, the Jericho program was way weaker than it should have been. They over exposed him, didn't plan long term, and stopped thinking outside of the box. Not to be repetitive, but Bray should have been Daniel Bryan's first title challenger. The Authority vs DB needed to largely die out after WM, but with Steph giving a sort of final "FU" to Bryan by announcing the sickest, most deranged person on the roster as #1 contender. Harper and Rowan should have gotten at least a short run with the tag titles to help further it, putting momentum behind the Wyatt Family and setting Bray up as a serious threat to Bryan.
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The Possum
Unicron
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Post by The Possum on Oct 21, 2014 22:45:07 GMT -5
Honestly, I think it's just that they had no follow up for Bray. The Cena feud definitely elevated him, but then after that they just threw him in the MITB match. His character wasn't about winning the WWE Championship, and he didn't stand out in a mix of seven guys. Then after that, the Jericho program was way weaker than it should have been. They over exposed him, didn't plan long term, and stopped thinking outside of the box. Not to be repetitive, but Bray should have been Daniel Bryan's first title challenger. The Authority vs DB needed to largely die out after WM, but with Steph giving a sort of final "FU" to Bryan by announcing the sickest, most deranged person on the roster as #1 contender. Harper and Rowan should have gotten at least a short run with the tag titles to help further it, putting momentum behind the Wyatt Family and setting Bray up as a serious threat to Bryan. I'd agree one hundred percent, provided he earned it some way. After the WM loss to Cena, he'd need have at least needed to beat Cena in a number one contender's match on Raw.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Oct 22, 2014 2:05:31 GMT -5
It honestly doesn't matter. If they want to make Bray a threat, he will come back, win a few matches clean against established stars and that's what people will remember and perceive his status to be. No one will care that 2 months ago he took a few finishes in a 6 man tag, and No one is not going to buy him as a threat if he beats who he should be beating. They can build anyone up or knock anyone down depending on whay they want, and the machine allows them to do that. It's happened constantly with jobbers coming back repackaged and being built up. This whole 'why should I buy them as a threat?' line is never relevant, unless they continued to be booked as far too many rungs down their ladder to be believable against the guy they are facing. I still don't understand this line of thinking and never will. You're right, they can build up and tear down whoever they want whenever they want. They also don't have any over main event stars besides Cena and Lesnar. Their ratings are down, business is flat, the Network isn't doing the business they want it to. But go ahead and keep doing what they've done for the past 10 years because they're the machine and they can do what they want. The fans will never be smart enough to remember something that happened a few months ago.... If someone is pushed down, it means someone else is elevated up. There has to be people not getting their shot in any given moment so that others can.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 22, 2014 7:15:51 GMT -5
Problem was there was no end game for the Wyatt Family. Are they there to win all of the titles? Takeover WWE? Destroy Cena and stalwarts of the company? Talk about nothing? We came place blame on Cena all we want but without the Bryan and Cena angles, they had no focus. The Jericho feud exposed that.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Oct 22, 2014 9:36:21 GMT -5
Problem was there was no end game for the Wyatt Family. Are they there to win all of the titles? Takeover WWE? Destroy Cena and stalwarts of the company? Talk about nothing? We came place blame on Cena all we want but without the Bryan and Cena angles, they had no focus. The Jericho feud exposed that. I agree with this. Everybody always says that a character like Bray doesn't care about titles or winning matches even. Well then....how long can they really ride 'I'm gonna mess with your miiiiind!' before the crowd gets flat to it?
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Oct 22, 2014 9:37:34 GMT -5
Problem was there was no end game for the Wyatt Family. Are they there to win all of the titles? Takeover WWE? Destroy Cena and stalwarts of the company? Talk about nothing? We came place blame on Cena all we want but without the Bryan and Cena angles, they had no focus. The Jericho feud exposed that. I agree with this. Everybody always says that a character like Bray doesn't care about titles or winning matches even. Well then....how long can they really ride 'I'm gonna mess with your miiiiind!' before the crowd gets flat to it? I have to agree. The cryptic stuff, creepy mind games, and video packages are all for naught if there's no rhyme or reason for them.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Oct 22, 2014 9:39:59 GMT -5
I agree with this. Everybody always says that a character like Bray doesn't care about titles or winning matches even. Well then....how long can they really ride 'I'm gonna mess with your miiiiind!' before the crowd gets flat to it? I have to agree. The cryptic stuff, creepy mind games, and video packages are all for naught if there's no rhyme or reason for them. Didn't Bray get boring chants during a few of his promos during the Jericho feud? I vaguely recall that.
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