jmule
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,274
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Post by jmule on Oct 26, 2014 12:33:27 GMT -5
So did you guys think it was cool that he gave all the crappy midcarders a title shot or do you think it was kind of stupid and he should've just stuck with the top guy?
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 26, 2014 12:39:48 GMT -5
I didn't like seeing the ttile defended that often against questionable quality. It stopped becoming a big deal; either the belt or the champion
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Post by Racksman on Oct 26, 2014 12:45:50 GMT -5
I mean, who else did they have? Flair was being phased out, Warrior left, Savage was being cycled down, Hogan was gone, Yoko was being built, Perfect had just became their #2 babyface, Luger hadn't debuted/was being built. There wasn't anybody else. There are some good fancams of Hart/Flair Iron Man matches in February '93 that Flair did on his last tour before returning to WCW. I think the point was that Bret was a fighting champion, was taking down everyone left and right, while simultaneously building Yokozuna as an unstoppable monster, and he was supposed to become the bane of Bret's existence. Of course the Hogantrain came in to town and derailed everything. Twice. So shit.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 26, 2014 12:49:24 GMT -5
I mean, who else did they have? Flair was being phased out, Warrior left, Savage was being cycled down, Hogan was gone, Yoko was being built, Perfect had just became their #2 babyface, Luger hadn't debuted/was being built. There wasn't anybody else. There are some good fancams of Hart/Flair Iron Man matches in February '93 that Flair did on his last tour before returning to WCW. I think the point was that Bret was a fighting champion, was taking down everyone left and right, while simultaneously building Yokozuna as an unstoppable monster, and he was supposed to become the bane of Bret's existence. Of course the Hogantrain came in to town and derailed everything. Twice. So shit. Twice?
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Post by JTG Fan on Oct 26, 2014 12:54:05 GMT -5
I could understand the argument against it, but I love the 'fighting champion' angle. WCW took a bit overboard though when Al Green was getting WCW Title shots against Goldberg, but regular guys on WWF TV like Papa Shango, Rick Martel, The Mountie, Bezerker, and Virgil getting a shot at the champion was cool.
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Post by Racksman on Oct 26, 2014 12:55:07 GMT -5
I mean, who else did they have? Flair was being phased out, Warrior left, Savage was being cycled down, Hogan was gone, Yoko was being built, Perfect had just became their #2 babyface, Luger hadn't debuted/was being built. There wasn't anybody else. There are some good fancams of Hart/Flair Iron Man matches in February '93 that Flair did on his last tour before returning to WCW. I think the point was that Bret was a fighting champion, was taking down everyone left and right, while simultaneously building Yokozuna as an unstoppable monster, and he was supposed to become the bane of Bret's existence. Of course the Hogantrain came in to town and derailed everything. Twice. So shit. Twice? WM9 ending; then refusing to do the job for Bret at Summerslam, leading to the KOTR '93 debacle.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
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Post by Professor Chaos on Oct 26, 2014 12:56:03 GMT -5
His first title run was the first time I ever thought why is a crappy midcarder the WWF Champion.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 26, 2014 13:54:38 GMT -5
WM9 ending; then refusing to do the job for Bret at Summerslam, leading to the KOTR '93 debacle. Hogan refusing to job for Bret at SS doesn't stand up. Hogan was gone after KOTR. If Vince really wanted strap on Bret nothing was stopping him. It just sounds like something Vince told Bret to pacify him. "Bret I'd give you the title shot at SS but Hogan doesn't want to put you over, my hands are tied!" *Hogan leaves. Bret walks back into Vince's office wanting to know if he'll get title shot at SS now Hogan's gone. "Um well you see the thing is Bret um....you see...uh...ooh look over there *runs away*...."
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 26, 2014 13:56:47 GMT -5
I loved it.
Everyone got a shot. Very different to what previous champs had done. Made Bret look awesome.
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Post by Racksman on Oct 26, 2014 15:23:07 GMT -5
WM9 ending; then refusing to do the job for Bret at Summerslam, leading to the KOTR '93 debacle. Hogan refusing to job for Bret at SS doesn't stand up. Hogan was gone after KOTR. If Vince really wanted strap on Bret nothing was stopping him. It just sounds like something Vince told Bret to pacify him. "Bret I'd give you the title shot at SS but Hogan doesn't want to put you over, my hands are tied!" *Hogan leaves. Bret walks back into Vince's office wanting to know if he'll get title shot at SS now Hogan's gone. "Um well you see the thing is Bret um....you see...uh...ooh look over there *runs away*...." No, the plan coming out of WrestleMania was to build to Hogan/Bret at Summerslam, and have Hogan drop the belt. Hogan said he wasn't going to do the job for Bret, so they came up with the KOTR match with Yokozuna instead. In the meantime, they created Luger to take Hogan's place since he then wanted out. Hogan did not actually leave the WWF until August, he did some of the Summer Tour, doing tag matches against Money Inc, I think it was.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 15:46:28 GMT -5
I liked it because it was different. I think Bret worked because he was billed as the everyman fighting champion. It was a nice contrast from Hogan, and at that time they needed to draw direct contrasts between the two to minimize the tendency to compare. I think some guys (like Bret) work as "fighting champions" and I think that other guys (like Hogan) work as big match champions. Hogan was the type of wrestler who worked better when booked less. Bret didn't have the same "aura" as Hogan, so he could be overexposed without losing any importance.
Did Bret fighting midcarders devalue the belt? No, because Hogan fought midcarders too. Bret elevated the midcarders by making them look like legit threats to his title reign. With Hogan, there was never any doubt that he was going to take a beating, Hulk up, and have a 5 minute posedown.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Oct 26, 2014 15:46:51 GMT -5
Hogan refusing to job for Bret at SS doesn't stand up. Hogan was gone after KOTR. If Vince really wanted strap on Bret nothing was stopping him. It just sounds like something Vince told Bret to pacify him. "Bret I'd give you the title shot at SS but Hogan doesn't want to put you over, my hands are tied!" *Hogan leaves. Bret walks back into Vince's office wanting to know if he'll get title shot at SS now Hogan's gone. "Um well you see the thing is Bret um....you see...uh...ooh look over there *runs away*...." No, the plan coming out of WrestleMania was to build to Hogan/Bret at Summerslam, and have Hogan drop the belt. Hogan said he wasn't going to do the job for Bret, so they came up with the KOTR match with Yokozuna instead. In the meantime, they created Luger to take Hogan's place since he then wanted out. Hogan did not actually leave the WWF until August, he did some of the Summer Tour, doing tag matches against Money Inc, I think it was. But that still doesn't make sense. You want the belt on Bret you give Bret Hogan's spot. You don't create Luger to take Hogan's place. If the plan was for Bret to beat Hogan at SS why did Hogan's departure still not get him the strap until Luger failed? The story asks us to believe that Vince wanted the belt on Bret but Hogan didn't want to job so when Hogan left Vince..forgot about Bret? All we have are stories of the 'tug of war' for the belt which could have been for anything really a magazine piece, house show promtional poster that got nixed or any number of things. It seems like the typical "if not for X Id have been the champion..." we hear from dozens of guys who claim they were to be 'the guy' if not for X, Y and Z. Nothing about how it was booked post WM9 indicates Vince had any interest in putting Bret back in the title scene. If Hogan was only barrier to Bret winning the belt why did his departure see Bret feuding with a commentator? Claims about "original plans" that always involve the person who didn't get pushed claiming he "would have if..." should be taken with a large pinch of salt
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 16:07:16 GMT -5
The whole idea of Hogan putting Bret over clean has never set right with me. If they wanted Hogan to put Bret over, the most direct path would be to have Bret defend the belt against Hogan and beat him. Instead, Yoko beat Bret and Hogan beat Yoko 2 minutes later to become champion... then have Bret beat Hogan? What would have been the purpose of shuffling the title from Bret, to Yoko, to Hogan, then to Bret? That's some maze-like booking.
It doesn't compute that Hogan would agree to come back for a couple months just to do the honors for Bret. Besides, he didn't even put Yoko over clean. Why would he put Bret over? Seems to me that Vince was either just telling Bret what he wanted to hear, or he just changed his mind and decided to go with Luger instead. Bret said himself that Vince never seemed to have the confidence that he could be the marquee guy. My thinking is that Vince fully intended for Luger to be his next feature attraction, and he either saw Bret as an experiment that didn't work, or was only using him in a "this is the best we've got right now" role.
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Post by Prince Petty on Oct 26, 2014 17:30:54 GMT -5
Bret never had Hogan's aura, as a larger-than-life megastar character. And that was fine, because what Bret had was something that felt more real to me, more accessible as a fan. He was just a guy who was a really good wrestler, and could find ways to beat whoever he was put in the ring with. So that's why it worked that he was defending the title regularly, from a kayfabe point of view.
From a practical point of view, I think it worked well to establish him as the champion, to give him a body of work that identified him as the top guy, and showcase him as a main eventer. And you didn't have to worry about people cottoning onto the fact that your champ didn't ever do a whole lot in the ring, so you didn't have to worry about how often you put him in matches.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 18:12:22 GMT -5
It was bad. Bret was not ready for it and it showed just how far down the roster had gone in quality. He was more ready for a run in 1994. If WM 10 was his first title run, it would have been a lot better.
As far as Bret/Hogan, I don't buy Bret's story either. If Bret was going to beat Hulk for the title at SSlam and Hulk left, then Bret could have beaten Yoko at Summerslam. Instead we got Luger and his faux Hogan run, and Bret feuded with a commentator that no one outside of Memphis viewed as a credible main event talent.
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Post by somsta on Oct 26, 2014 18:44:07 GMT -5
The theory that Bret wasn't going to beat Hogan at SS because he didn't beat Yoko at SS doesn't hold water to me. There's a lot of variables. Let's say Vince's original plan was
1. Hogan beats Yoko at WM9 2. Hogan puts Bret over at Summerslam and they roll with Bret as champ.
In theory sometime between 1 and 2 happening Hogan made it clear that he wouldn't put Bret over so they had him drop the belt back to Yoko.
So, logically you think, ok they wanted to roll with Bret, just put him over Yoko and there you go.
But now, you've made Yoko look like a chump at Wrestlemania, he's going to look even worse if he loses the strap two months later to Bret. It's possible they decided to get mileage out of Yoko as the monster that killed Hulk-a-Mania. It would be one thing if they had had him drop the belt to Luger at Summerslam instead of Bret, but they didn't.
Just because once the belt was on Yoko the direction changed, doesn't mean the original plan wasn't Hogan losing to Bret.
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Post by celticjobber on Oct 26, 2014 18:46:49 GMT -5
I thought it was great.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Oct 27, 2014 10:56:18 GMT -5
I felt it was what they should have done with Daniel Bryan. Give mid card guys the opportunity to shine and maybe even raise their stock to being a fringe main evener.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 27, 2014 11:28:19 GMT -5
The fighting Champion act helped to mask the WWE's lack of quality main eventers at that time, he had some awesome matches with midcarders who Hogan would have squashed, showcasing what Bret could do far better than the televised squash matches the WWE had for most of the 90s and he made people look good no matter where they were on the card.
What really hurt Bret was the way he got the belt, he was fighting an uphill battle to gain credibility in the eyes of most of the audience from day one because he didn't win it in a big match at a major event, he won it at a superstars taping in a match most of the audience never saw, they may as well have gifted him the belt and claimed he won it in a tournament in South America. They should have put the belt on Savage then had a face v face match at a PPV as both guys were skilled at wrestling other faces and coming out looking good.
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 27, 2014 12:08:22 GMT -5
It wasn't so much part of the storyline as it was that the company didn't have a big heel base at the time. Guys like Kamala, Shango and Berzerker were sadly the bigger names at the time. Flair had already lost to Bret, Razor was being phased in.
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