Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,237
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Post by Renslayer on Oct 28, 2014 21:01:49 GMT -5
"Hi beautiful" isn't all that benign, you're inserting yourself into a person's day solely based on how you think they appear. There is a whole of about what you're saying that isn't inherently true, for one based on the fact that some would like that. You're saying it's not benign as in it's harmful, but that's baggage you're attaching to it. Maybe to some it would be, or at least awkward, but to others it wouldn't be. We can't make up one factual rule for how a couple words will effect every human being. And I repeat, who are you to say that? A person who probably has about as much life experience as you, or anybody in the topic? I'm saying things because I know them? Like it or don't? I honestly find it a little baffling that what I'm saying is so controversial to you, even if you strongly disagree. It might make your argument cleaner and simpler if a whole gender agreed on everything, but that is not reality. But it's not just "hello" though. The dudes who harass women just want to f*** and will change their entire demeanor once she says she has a boyfriend, isn't interested in him, etc.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,849
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Post by chazraps on Oct 28, 2014 21:01:47 GMT -5
"Hi beautiful" isn't all that benign, you're inserting yourself into a person's day solely based on how you think they appear. There is a whole of about what you're saying that isn't inherently true, for one based on the fact that some would like that. You're saying it's not benign as in it's harmful, but that's baggage you're attaching to it. Maybe to some it would be, or at least awkward, but to others it wouldn't be. We can't make up one factual rule for how a couple words will effect every human being. And I repeat, who are you to say that? A person who probably has about as much life experience as you, or anybody in the topic? I'm saying things because I know them? Like it or don't? I honestly find it a little baffling that what I'm saying is so controversial to you, even if you strongly disagree. It might make your argument cleaner and simpler if a whole gender agreed on everything, but that is not reality. What gender do you identify as?
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Post by Next Level was WRONG on Oct 28, 2014 21:02:01 GMT -5
Question outside of any of the discussion:
What exactly is the guy who says "I just found a thousand dollars" talking about? Is he referring to whats in his hand, her looks or what? Its the one interaction that is just straight up inexplicable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 21:02:26 GMT -5
Man, I would have hated going to college with some of you. "Hey Cone, get that girl's number!" "Sorry guys, I can't, I'll just pretend I did and imagine dating her in my mind". If you see a pretty girl on the street that you find attractive, how else are you ever going to have a chance with her other than saying something?. Yeah, why deprive her of the knowledge that someone she's never met finds her attractive or wants to get with her? I mean, don't get me wrong, I 100% see the benefit of me trying to holler at a girl on the street, but I also see that it be creepy as f*** for a stranger to randomly come up and tell me I'm beautiful and wants to go out with me based on knowing zero about me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 21:03:57 GMT -5
To be fair, she wasn't really being harassed, those people are just for ethics in video game journalism. And since someone asked about it... One time, I was actually in the supposedly enviable position to get cat-called and hit on by a bunch of women. You know how I felt knowing that every inch of my body was scrutinized and commented upon by women I don't know and have never seen in my life? I felt like I wanted to crawl under a ****ing rock and mind you this is even when thoughts that they might follow me home, kill me, harass me, and/or rape me never crossed my mind! You know how long the cat-calling went on? About one minute. Two minutes at the most. I, someone who has never had to deal with members of the opposite sex giving unsolicited comments about his body, couldn't take 90 ****ing seconds of it without feeling like I really should've dressed differently. There's not much I can say about women having to deal with that shit every time they step out of the house and sometimes when they don't. Only that...Yeezus... We as dudes have to be better about policing ourselves and other dudes to where we can create a social environment where we wouldn't be compelled to just talk shit at any ol' woman we find attractive for the sake of demonstrating "ownership." Like, we all know or have known dudes who did this and we've got to be prepared to not tolerate this shit. No, we can't go all Minority Report on it but who said that's required? I don't cat-call women and never had the desire, but I damn sure know how and when dudes do it. Call me a wet blanket or "Social Justice Warrior" if you want to. You don't have nothing to say to some woman who is just trying to walk down the street that you wouldn't say to some dude you would see.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 21:04:41 GMT -5
For most people the sidewalk is a just a way you travel from point A to point B and aren't interested in being social. It is honestly the pedestrian equivalent of rolling your window down on the highway and trying to talk to the person driving next you. I still find the idea of men "just being nice" by saying "hi beautiful" strange and men need to re-assess what they consider nice when so many women have spoken out about it doesn't feel nice when they're being told it by a stranger. Why does none of this apply to women complimenting a man on his looks? You know women aren't always polite? How about equality for example? Why specify it as just men talking to women? Because the thread started with a video about a woman being randomly harassed on the street while ignoring everyone around her and a litany of women echoing the uncomfortable feeling that accompanies it online. Though I agree - women should find the appropriate time and place to hit on men as well. It should apply to women as well.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 28, 2014 21:04:56 GMT -5
"Hi beautiful" isn't all that benign, you're inserting yourself into a person's day solely based on how you think they appear. There is a whole of about what you're saying that isn't inherently true, for one based on the fact that some would like that. You're saying it's not benign as in it's harmful, but that's baggage you're attaching to it. Maybe to some it would be, or at least awkward, but to others it wouldn't be. We can't make up one factual rule for how a couple words will effect every human being. And I repeat, who are you to say that? A person who probably has about as much life experience as you, or anybody in the topic? I'm saying things because I know them? Like it or don't? I honestly find it a little baffling that what I'm saying is so controversial to you, even if you strongly disagree. It might make your argument cleaner and simpler if a whole gender agreed on everything, but that is not reality. Then let me make it more clear: Why are you speaking for women on this issue, women who are clearly saying it is a big deal?Why are you saying "no, those compliments aren't bad", why are you saying "it's not a big deal", why are you just insisting on ignoring what a huge chunk of the population, the chunk that actually lives through this stuff, and insisting that your perspective is more accurate than their's is? If you can't see how presumptuous what you're saying is, and how belittling and infantilizing it is toward the huge number of women who are making this into a public issue, then I can't imagine what to tell you. How YOU see it, how YOU mean it, how YOU interpret couldn't mean any less to the issue at hand, because YOU aren't the person living it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 21:05:45 GMT -5
Hey guys, I think this discussion is very insightful, but you are GROSSLY overcomplicating this matter.
These aren't regular men hitting on her in the video. Almost all the guys talking to her are, by the clothes they dress in, easy to identify as low-class; gangsters and panhandlers. I'm not familiar with Manhattan, as I've only been there once, but as a person who has been in cities more times than he can count, I know there's certain neighborhoods that you avoid and certain streets you don't walk down--it's not about race, it's about income, and what the area looks like. And in Manhattan, I avoided those areas, and still got looked at threateningly or hit up for money a few times (in Baltimore, a city with a much darker reputation, I've had about as many dirty looks and encounters in my whole life). You avoid bad areas, especially if you're by yourself. And I'm a man, not a woman. So the sex thing doesn't factor in. I'm nervous around some of the people who prowl those places.
I wish she actually held true to what she was saying in her disclaimer and included people of ALL backgrounds, because the video overwhelmingly focuses on blacks. And lo and behold, the video is already starting a racial witch hunt in the Comments section on Youtube.
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Post by Next Level was WRONG on Oct 28, 2014 21:06:15 GMT -5
Why does none of this apply to women complimenting a man on his looks? You know women aren't always polite? How about equality for example? Why specify it as just men talking to women? It does apply. It just doesn't happen as often. I'm a dude and its happened a couple of times to me in my adult life and I felt very uncomfortable each time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 21:09:03 GMT -5
Question outside of any of the discussion:What exactly is the guy who says "I just found a thousand dollars" talking about? Is he referring to whats in his hand, her looks or what? Its the one interaction that is just straight up inexplicable. My guess is that he wanted her to turn around, or bend over, or was talking about her. I don't think the mic would've picked that up if he wasn't saying it in her direction.
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Post by PsychoGoatee on Oct 28, 2014 21:10:10 GMT -5
Why are you saying "no, those compliments aren't bad", why are you saying "it's not a big deal", why are you just insisting on ignoring what a huge chunk of the population, the chunk that actually lives through this stuff, and insisting that your perspective is more accurate than their's is? I'm not saying what you're saying I am. I'm pointing out that not everyone, including everyone of any particular gender, will agree on the evils or merits of say "hi beautiful". You yourself are very opinionated on what is good or bad to say to women here, and you have your opinion, as I have mine, regardless of what our genders are. We're people talking about logic, talking about various things, I'm saying it is bad to some, isn't bad to others. That's all. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but much like not all women have the same opinion on everything, not all posters on FAN have to have the same opinion on everything. If my opinion is worthless to you, so is yours to you, based on your logic. But really, none of that matters, we're all just people chiming in with our two cents on a wrestling forum. Why does none of this apply to women complimenting a man on his looks? You know women aren't always polite? How about equality for example? Why specify it as just men talking to women? It does apply. It just doesn't happen as often. I'm a dude and its happened a couple of times to me in my adult life and I felt very uncomfortable each time. I'm a dude and I appreciated it every time, even from say an older somewhat drunk woman who is not at all my type. But that's just me!
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Post by bluemeii on Oct 28, 2014 21:11:57 GMT -5
That's pretty much simplifying or generalizing every single comment that was made her way. Fine we can simplify further....Harrasment - aggressive pressure or intimidation. Sorry other than 1 or 2 instances where the men followed her or followed up with comments I don't see that happening. As has been discussed throughout this thread, not one person is condoning that. The simple act of a friendly greeting. No sorry that's just getting to generalizing that all men act and think the way you described and that's a load of shit. I ask again: given that you're not the one who lives this experience, why do you feel compelled to explain how they "should" feel about it? Point one: harassment doesn't have to involve physical pressure or intimidation. That's like saying "it's only racism if you use the n-word" or something. Point two: If it is, indeed, "just a friendly hello", then why are the only strangers they're doing it to women? Point three: Nobody gives a single, solitary shit about the intentions of every guy saying something to the woman. The point of the video is that even if you're approaching with no intention of harming her, she's been putting up with this the entire day, and you're just continuously feeding into it, "intentions" be damned. It's not her job to read your mind and figure out if you mean her harm, it's YOUR job to be a decent person and leave somebody who's going about their own personal business alone. Point four: don't you think women are aware that, duh, the vast majority of men aren't going to attack them, even after catcalling them? It doesn't change that it just takes one loon to get physical about it for there to be a gigantic problem, and constantly dealing with the issue leaves women feeling like they constantly have to be on alert when walking a public sidewalk. As guys, we'd take catcalls (or whatever they'd call it when it's directed at men) directed at us as a joke, because for one it simply isn't done much to us, and secondly, there isn't a clear physical/sexual threat to us given that most men are physically stronger than a woman. Louis CK said it well in one of his sets a few years back when he pointed out "a man's greatest nightmare is a woman embarrassing him; a woman's greatest nightmare is a man killing her." That gives the interaction a grotesquely different level of meaning; and again, women are fully aware most men aren't looking to physically hurt them, but again, your intentions don't mean but two things in this situation: Jack and Shit. Please tell me anywhere in this thread how they should feel about it. In reference to the video I already gave my thoughts on it. It was a damn informercial for their cause. Nothing more nothing less that was the point of it. I have already said that the cause is just, but that the message was being taken away from by sensationalism. This was also discussed in another post earlier in the thread. I was raised being a decent person meant smiling and saying hello, holding open a door for people and generally being a decent person. Unless I missed the memo on this, when did this change? And do not pretend to tell me what people yell at me when I walk down the street with my wife or my daughter I take as a joke. I could give 2 shits what Louis CK says. When I walk down the street in NYC with my wife and get called things like "n***** Lover" or fun ones like Monkey f***er (that was a good one today) or having my daughter called a half breed mongrol do you know what I have to do. Ignore it. Why. I have to stay out of jail to support them. Also because you can't legislate stupidity, and you can't legislate ignorance. So yes street harassment is more then just sexual catcalls or hi how you doins at a cute female walking down the street. There's a shit ton more to it that people have to deal with on a daily basis. This doesn't however prevent me, my wife nor my daughter from being a decent person and holding that door open or give someone a friendly greeting as they walk down the street. Walking out your front door is a risk. Walking down the sidewalk is a risk. Hell taking a shower is a risk. Nothing is going to prevent the small chance of something happening. Do you know what I say to the 1 in 20 people that I might offend walking down the street and offend by saying hello. Tough shit grow a spine.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Oct 28, 2014 21:19:22 GMT -5
Nope. Both side need time away. Thread Done.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 28, 2014 21:22:54 GMT -5
I ask again: given that you're not the one who lives this experience, why do you feel compelled to explain how they "should" feel about it? Point one: harassment doesn't have to involve physical pressure or intimidation. That's like saying "it's only racism if you use the n-word" or something. Point two: If it is, indeed, "just a friendly hello", then why are the only strangers they're doing it to women? Point three: Nobody gives a single, solitary shit about the intentions of every guy saying something to the woman. The point of the video is that even if you're approaching with no intention of harming her, she's been putting up with this the entire day, and you're just continuously feeding into it, "intentions" be damned. It's not her job to read your mind and figure out if you mean her harm, it's YOUR job to be a decent person and leave somebody who's going about their own personal business alone. Point four: don't you think women are aware that, duh, the vast majority of men aren't going to attack them, even after catcalling them? It doesn't change that it just takes one loon to get physical about it for there to be a gigantic problem, and constantly dealing with the issue leaves women feeling like they constantly have to be on alert when walking a public sidewalk. As guys, we'd take catcalls (or whatever they'd call it when it's directed at men) directed at us as a joke, because for one it simply isn't done much to us, and secondly, there isn't a clear physical/sexual threat to us given that most men are physically stronger than a woman. Louis CK said it well in one of his sets a few years back when he pointed out "a man's greatest nightmare is a woman embarrassing him; a woman's greatest nightmare is a man killing her." That gives the interaction a grotesquely different level of meaning; and again, women are fully aware most men aren't looking to physically hurt them, but again, your intentions don't mean but two things in this situation: Jack and Shit. Please tell me anywhere in this thread how they should feel about it. In reference to the video I already gave my thoughts on it. It was a damn informercial for their cause. Nothing more nothing less that was the point of it. I have already said that the cause is just, but that the message was being taken away from by sensationalism. This was also discussed in another post earlier in the thread. I was raised being a decent person meant smiling and saying hello, holding open a door for people and generally being a decent person. Unless I missed the memo on this, when did this change? And do not pretend to tell me what people yell at me when I walk down the street with my wife or my daughter I take as a joke. I could give 2 shits what Louis CK says. When I walk down the street in NYC with my wife and get called things like "n***** Lover" or fun ones like Monkey f***er (that was a good one today) or having my daughter called a half breed mongrol do you know what I have to do. Ignore it. Why. I have to stay out of jail to support them. Also because you can't legislate stupidity, and you can't legislate ignorance. So yes street harassment is more then just sexual catcalls or hi how you doins at a cute female walking down the street. There's a shit ton more to it that people have to deal with on a daily basis. This doesn't however prevent me, my wife nor my daughter from being a decent person and holding that door open or give someone a friendly greeting as they walk down the street. Walking out your front door is a risk. Walking down the sidewalk is a risk. Hell taking a shower is a risk. Nothing is going to prevent the small chance of something happening. Do you know what I say to the 1 in 20 people that I might offend walking down the street and offend by saying hello. Tough shit grow a spine. Then why the hell is this being called sensationalism by you of all people? It CLEARLY happens; you're admitting you experience it, and seemingly on a regular basis, but due to race instead of sex/gender. Then how is it being sensationalized, and why are we even having this freaking debate, when you're saying straight up it's something that happens all the damn time? Ignoring it will never, ever make it go away, but nobody is saying to use fists to fight it, either. I have no clue whatsoever where that came from, or why that's seemingly the only solution offered. And you continue, unceasingly, to move the goalposts and act like any of this was people just being "aw shucks" friendly, and your dishonesty on that is baffling to me. If somebody was holding the door open for this woman in the video, smiled, and said "have a nice day", nobody would give a shit. EDIT: missed the announcement.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Oct 28, 2014 22:46:37 GMT -5
Okay, it has been about an hour and I hope that is long enough for people to cool off, maybe read some of what was said and have a better way to deal with it than we've seen over the last two pages.
With that said, do not name call, flame, act like you're better because of your opinions, or try to tell another poster what they are saying or actually mean. Discuss what they said, not what you think they are saying or what you think they are saying because it better fits what you're trying to say.
Thank you
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,576
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Post by Dub H on Oct 28, 2014 22:52:11 GMT -5
To be fair, she wasn't really being harassed, those people are just for ethics in video game journalism. I ask to not make unrelated shots to something of that topic.Mainly that could end up making a shitstorm.Luckily seems not many people are heavily into this subject,but it could have ended much worse and from what i saw then someone makes a shot about it, it can end bad.
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Post by SenorCrest on Oct 28, 2014 23:14:31 GMT -5
This thread feels like it is going around in circles. I'll weigh in anyway Hey guys, I think this discussion is very insightful, but you are GROSSLY overcomplicating this matter. These aren't regular men hitting on her in the video. Almost all the guys talking to her are, by the clothes they dress in, easy to identify as low-class; gangsters and panhandlers. I'm not familiar with Manhattan, as I've only been there once, but as a person who has been in cities more times than he can count, I know there's certain neighborhoods that you avoid and certain streets you don't walk down--it's not about race, it's about income, and what the area looks like. And in Manhattan, I avoided those areas, and still got looked at threateningly or hit up for money a few times (in Baltimore, a city with a much darker reputation, I've had about as many dirty looks and encounters in my whole life). You avoid bad areas, especially if you're by yourself. And I'm a man, not a woman. So the sex thing doesn't factor in. I'm nervous around some of the people who prowl those places. I wish she actually held true to what she was saying in her disclaimer and included people of ALL backgrounds, because the video overwhelmingly focuses on blacks. And lo and behold, the video is already starting a racial witch hunt in the Comments section on Youtube. The first thing I noticed was the type of people doing this. None of them seems like regular guys chilling at a starbucks or hanging out at the apple church. And thats where the problem is. These lowlifes will never ever stop doing these things and even if another guy stands up for her it will probably end up in some sort of violence or elevated verbal abuse. I see nothing wrong with approaching a woman you feel attracted to and strike up a conversation. Just have some class and respect. It might end up in a date or whatever. I don't think catcalling someone ever works anyway.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,237
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Post by Renslayer on Oct 28, 2014 23:31:51 GMT -5
This thread feels like it is going around in circles. I'll weigh in anyway Hey guys, I think this discussion is very insightful, but you are GROSSLY overcomplicating this matter. These aren't regular men hitting on her in the video. Almost all the guys talking to her are, by the clothes they dress in, easy to identify as low-class; gangsters and panhandlers. I'm not familiar with Manhattan, as I've only been there once, but as a person who has been in cities more times than he can count, I know there's certain neighborhoods that you avoid and certain streets you don't walk down--it's not about race, it's about income, and what the area looks like. And in Manhattan, I avoided those areas, and still got looked at threateningly or hit up for money a few times (in Baltimore, a city with a much darker reputation, I've had about as many dirty looks and encounters in my whole life). You avoid bad areas, especially if you're by yourself. And I'm a man, not a woman. So the sex thing doesn't factor in. I'm nervous around some of the people who prowl those places. I wish she actually held true to what she was saying in her disclaimer and included people of ALL backgrounds, because the video overwhelmingly focuses on blacks. And lo and behold, the video is already starting a racial witch hunt in the Comments section on Youtube. The first thing I noticed was the type of people doing this. None of them seems like regular guys chilling at a starbucks or hanging out at the apple church. And thats where the problem is. These lowlifes will never ever stop doing these things and even if another guy stands up for her it will probably end up in some sort of violence or elevated verbal abuse. I see nothing wrong with approaching a woman you feel attracted to and strike up a conversation. Just have some class and respect. It might end up in a date or whatever. I don't think catcalling someone ever works anyway. To push back a bit, I wouldn't automatically reach the conclusion that just lowlife dudes are doing this. I've seen a lot of women say that they've been harassed by dudes in "classier" parts of town. I think she filmed this on 125th Street, but if she were to go to Wall St, I'm betting she'd get the same responses as shown on the original video. There are tricky dynamics to this particular video that was mentioned in the first comment, but women of other backgrounds have discussed how men of all races & ethnicities have harassed them. I think the biggest takeaway I've had from this video and the experiences of women who have discussed being harassed is the level of entitlement people have when it comes to engagement. Like, you can say whatever you want, but I don't have to stop and acknowledge your presence if I choose not to.
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Oct 28, 2014 23:36:39 GMT -5
That's pretty much simplifying or generalizing every single comment that was made her way. Fine we can simplify further....Harrasment - aggressive pressure or intimidation. Sorry other than 1 or 2 instances where the men followed her or followed up with comments I don't see that happening. As has been discussed throughout this thread, not one person is condoning that. The simple act of a friendly greeting. No sorry that's just getting to generalizing that all men act and think the way you described and that's a load of shit. I could debate whether or not "intimidation" is actually a factor here due to various societal issues, but categorizing anything as a "friendly greeting" when it comes to a stranger briskly walking away from you is a load of shit. There was nothing friendly about it because that would mean they were friends or at least on friendly terms. Which they were not. They were simply cold calling for sex. If they really wanted to engage someone in a friendly way, they'd do it in an appropriate setting, not randomly to a stranger walking somewhere in a hurry. Honestly its rude -even if were a guy talking to a guy, which never happens because, as I said earlier, there's nothing "friendly" about it. Well, I'm never saying hello to your ass if I ever see you walking down the street.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,576
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Post by Dub H on Oct 28, 2014 23:42:54 GMT -5
This thread feels like it is going around in circles. I'll weigh in anyway The first thing I noticed was the type of people doing this. None of them seems like regular guys chilling at a starbucks or hanging out at the apple church. And thats where the problem is. These lowlifes will never ever stop doing these things and even if another guy stands up for her it will probably end up in some sort of violence or elevated verbal abuse. I see nothing wrong with approaching a woman you feel attracted to and strike up a conversation. Just have some class and respect. It might end up in a date or whatever. I don't think catcalling someone ever works anyway. To push back a bit, I wouldn't automatically reach the conclusion that just lowlife dudes are doing this. I've seen a lot of women say that they've been harassed by dudes in "classier" parts of town. I think she filmed this on 125th Street, but if she were to go to Wall St, I'm betting she'd get the same responses as shown on the original video. There are tricky dynamics to this particular video that was mentioned in the first comment, but women of other backgrounds have discussed how men of all races & ethnicities have harassed them. I think the biggest takeaway I've had from this video and the experiences of women who have discussed being harassed is the level of entitlement people have when it comes to engagement. Like, you can say whatever you want, but I don't have to stop and acknowledge your presence if I choose not to. I'm from a state where not engaging with people on the street is the norm. Our country say we are the "coldest" state as a joke.But i agree,i think saying hi and all is fine.There DEFINITELY is people that goes to far,and that is something that hopefully will change. But i don't think people should avoid saying hi if they feel like,just don't think people should answer you back.
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