Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
Posts: 11,088
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Oct 29, 2014 2:31:40 GMT -5
On Monday night, we saw Mark Henry revert to his monster heel character and Ryback return as an ass-kicking babyface.
Both of these guys do their best work and are most effective in these roles, but we've seen these guys as victims of awful booking over the past couple of years that have completely derailed their careers.
Henry was involved in one of the best angles in recent memory when he feigned retiring only to viciously attack John Cena in a moment that few had seen coming. Eventually, Cena came out victorious in the feud and Henry has since flipped back and forth from face to heel in unremarkable midcard programs.
In 2012, Ryback was arguably the hottest act in the company as a dominant babyface. He eventually turned heel (on Cena, again) for no apparent reason other than his character having been written into a wall after failing to capture the WWE Title from CM Punk. Ryback floundered as a heel and, before he was hurt a few months ago, was stuck in a midcard tag team with Curtis Axel.
Both guys seem to be in much better positions going forward than they were before Monday and have positive momentum on their side to the point that there's hope that their previous booking can forgotten.
Now, it's premature to speculate on whether Ryback or Henry's runs will be successful, but both are risen from the scrapheap in hopes of redemption.
Is there anybody or any gimmick that you can think of in recent years that has been just too damaged to come back from or is anybody capable of being salvaged with the proper booking?
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Oct 29, 2014 2:38:11 GMT -5
At this point, Justin Gabriel.
Which sucks cause he was the best-booked Nexus member other than Barrett and Skip in 2010.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 29, 2014 2:39:50 GMT -5
No one is irreparable. If WWE can "shove guys down our throats" then they can turn a jobber into a world beater.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 29, 2014 2:40:47 GMT -5
I honestly think people sometimes overestimate the amount stuff will bury a guy, and that most anything is able to worked with, if the booking is good and the execution delivers.
That said, I do think that while people love him, and he will always have dedicated fans, even marks know about Jeff Hardy's drug problems in the past and will always be wary. I remember someone doing a video where they told young fans about Jeff's arrest not long after leaving WWE. I think the most telling one was when one kid just said "Not again!"
Fans can forgive, but it's like when someone said that WCCW fell apart when fans stopped believing in the Von Erichs. They will always second-guess people who have let them down before, especially if it's happened a few times. Then again, sometimes guys like Guerrero won their faith back, but it just doesn't happen in most cases that get that far.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 29, 2014 2:42:34 GMT -5
No one is irreparable. If WWE can "shove guys down our throats" then they can turn a jobber into a world beater. More or less. While he wasn't a jobber by any stretch, Bradshaw to JBL shows where if the office wants to get behind you, and if you can find the right angle, hitting at the right time , you can make a pretty damn huge leap up the card. Obviously a rarity, but it happens.
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Post by Macho Pichu on Oct 29, 2014 2:43:28 GMT -5
The poster child of irreparable damage is Zack Ryder. He was the one of the most over guys out there and sold a ton of merch, only for all his heat to be siphoned to an otherwise forgettable Cena/Kane feud and turned into a jobber with no personality.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 29, 2014 2:44:28 GMT -5
Yes, anyone can be rebuilt at any time with proper booking, and it really puzzles me sometimes how quick we seem to be to close the curtain on some guys, often quicker than WWE do.
You mentioned Mark Henry in the OP. He's the guy that already GOT the stuff that should have NEVER been recovered from, like groping a crossdresser, admitting to incestuous deeds with his sister and having sex with an elderly lady, yet he got through all that and ended up a complete and utter f***ing badass. So why do we give up on guys like Bray Wyatt and Cesaro, when all that's happening to them is losing a few too many wrestling matches?
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Oct 29, 2014 2:45:24 GMT -5
The poster child of irreparable damage is Zack Ryder. He was the one of the most over guys out there and sold a ton of merch, only for all his heat to be siphoned to an otherwise forgettable Cena/Kane feud and turned into a jobber with no personality. I disagree, Zack is the guy they should be sending to NXT to revitalize. If he teams with Enzo & Cass, he can become a legit tag team competitor. He won't reach his 2011 levels, but he won't be where he is now anymore.
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Post by KobashiChop on Oct 29, 2014 4:32:57 GMT -5
The poster child of irreparable damage is Zack Ryder. He was the one of the most over guys out there and sold a ton of merch, only for all his heat to be siphoned to an otherwise forgettable Cena/Kane feud and turned into a jobber with no personality. I disagree, Zack is the guy they should be sending to NXT to revitalize. If he teams with Enzo & Cass, he can become a legit tag team competitor. He won't reach his 2011 levels, but he won't be where he is now anymore. I have nothing against Ryder but dont anchor Enzo and Big Cass with him.
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keezy
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Post by keezy on Oct 29, 2014 4:36:32 GMT -5
Fandango? I don't know where that character goes from here except for Adam Rose dance offs and jobbing.
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Madagascar Fred
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Oct 29, 2014 4:52:49 GMT -5
Zack Ryder will never be a big time player in this business, you can put your house on it
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 29, 2014 4:54:23 GMT -5
I can't think of a single talent in history who was irreparable due to booking alone. Getting old, getting injured, just bad timing, all of these can damage a wrestler irreparably, but the right booking I think can turn anybody around. Jericho bounced in a few months from jobbing to Viscera on heat to pinning Triple H in the faux title switch.
The right guy and the right booking can recover from anything. Lest we forget, heel Ryback tapped out to being kicked in the leg. BY MIZ. And then Monday night he was right back to being an asskicking babyface.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Oct 29, 2014 5:50:13 GMT -5
The Miz's face turn and constantly being mocked by Stephanie and Miz really hurt him as he got zero retaliation.
He's not irreparable but he's definitely just another guy to fill a spot at this point.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 29, 2014 6:05:46 GMT -5
Sub question then: who has actually ever been damaged beyond repair? No existing talent counts because they still have a chance of redemption on the basis of still being active.
Who in history has actually been damaged badly enough that even attempts to re-push them didn't work?
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Post by karl100589 on Oct 29, 2014 6:27:16 GMT -5
Sub question then: who has actually ever been damaged beyond repair? No existing talent counts because they still have a chance of redemption on the basis of still being active. Who in history has actually been damaged badly enough that even attempts to re-push them didn't work? Bit cliched to say but Rikishi, after the heel turn failed they tried reverting back to his dancing sumo gimmick which made him popular but all of the momentum was gone by that point and nobody really cares anymore. Compare the pop he gets in the 2000 rumble to the non reaction he gets in 2002 and it shows how badly his momentum was hurt by the turn.
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Zen411
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Post by Zen411 on Oct 29, 2014 6:28:01 GMT -5
At this point I just don't see a future for Brooklyn brawler.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 29, 2014 6:28:50 GMT -5
Sub question then: who has actually ever been damaged beyond repair? No existing talent counts because they still have a chance of redemption on the basis of still being active. Who in history has actually been damaged badly enough that even attempts to re-push them didn't work? Bit cliched to say but Rikishi, after the heel turn failed they tried reverting back to his dancing sumo gimmick which made him popular but all of the momentum was gone by that point and nobody really cares anymore. Compare the pop he gets in the 2000 rumble to the non reaction he gets in 2002 and it shows how badly his momentum was hurt by the turn. A fair example, but is that really a re-push? Was Rikishi really pushed that much after turning back face?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 6:39:12 GMT -5
I think Alberto pretty much got there after awhile. They seemed to have gotten him straightened out first with that face turn then him turning heel, but the former got screwed up by the poorly thought out, "Made in America," stuff and putting him against more entertaining opposition, and the latter had the issue that it was logically leading to him dropping the title back to Ziggler except that never actually happened and instead his entire gimmick was reduced to tiny flags and armbars being kept on too long to the point the crowd basically stopped bothering to give him a chance no matter what he was doing.
Right there with him Sheamus is getting to be in the same boat. I do think a heel turn and a run as an unstoppable monster for about a year before switching back to a face this time with a more badass flare could save him (pretty much like Edge flopping as a face in 2010, turning heel for a bit, then turning face again while this time keeping most of his heel traits worked out much better than the initial turn did), but the longer he keeps up with his midcard smiley jokey thing the harder it's going to be to pull that off in a way that'll make anybody care.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Oct 29, 2014 6:43:15 GMT -5
Nick Dinsmore after the Eugene character. That would've been very hard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 6:45:06 GMT -5
Nick Dinsmore after the Eugene character. That would've been very hard. True, after awhile he was just wrecked. There were two places they could have dropped it and made it work - either he could've turned up as his own twin brother or something out for revenge after Triple H killed him in the cage, or he could have denounced the gimmick during his promo at One Night Stand 2006. After the latter, yeah, he was finished.
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