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Post by James Fabiano on Nov 6, 2014 13:54:23 GMT -5
I agree : I hate her but it's not irrational, she's about the most annoying character on TV. Yeah, we're not gonna be friends... OK, then again, there's hope for you yet...
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Post by RedSmile on Nov 6, 2014 13:56:51 GMT -5
Jamie is rather deplorable, but there's things in the books that they don't get into in the show. His dislike for the Starks, for example. As we all know, Jamie killed the mad king because the king was ordering that the entire city (and all of it's people and Jamie's father and his forces) be burned to the ground. What we don't know, is that in the books, when Ned Star arrives, he throws a hissy fit that Jamie would dare kill the king and break his vows to protect him, despite all the evil crap the king did and was going to do. Because of Ned, Jamie gets the lovely title of "Kingslayer" and has to put up with a ton of shit from Robert, his fellow kings guard, and everyone else. Jamie also was manipulated and screwed over (in more ways than one) by his idiot bitch sister, Cersi into becoming a kings guard in the first place and being stuck in Kings Landing instead of being the heir to Casterly Rock, like he was supposed to. I'm not excusing Jamie for a lot of the bullshit he's done in his life, but there are understandable explanations for his behavior (maybe not justified, but understandable). IMO, the true reprehensible villains of the books/show are Cersi, Joffrey, and Petyr Balish. So? He's still an asshole and yet every fan of the show seems to love him and the show itself clearly wants us to feel bad for him. Hell, as the Mad King's bodyguard, how many times has he killed other people who tried to end his reign? How many extra years has Jamie given him to torment his people? How many hundreds if not thousands of people died because Jamie was the one man stopping people from ending the king? But suddenly we're apparently supposed to look past all the awful shit he's done because HE tells us to feel sorry for him (which only makes him come across as even more of a jerk to me) for doing what he's killed dozens of people for doing before. Also, literally the first major thing we see him do is trying to murder a child so nope, not feeling sorry for him. And what did he do that for? So the kid won't talk about seeing him screw his sister a few metres away from the King, which by the way endangered his entire family, showing yet again what a selfish prick he is. See, he can whine about Ned Stark being a meanie all he wants, but frankly his constant disloyalty to anyone makes me think Ned was right when he said Jamie only killed the Mad King because it had become convenient, because EVERYTHING he does, he does it because he can gain something from it, or at least get out of trouble by doing it, and he doesn't care about who he has to step on or betray in the process, or how many people have to suffer from his actions. And the cherry on top is him fathering Joffrey, which lead to even more death and misery for the people he's trying to convince us he wants to protect. It's like every time you look at his history you find more reasons why he's an awful person even by the insanely low standards of Westeros, but we're supposed to feel sorry for him because he lost a hand or whatever. No, nuh-huh, I want his head on a goddamn spike. It doesn't help that the way the show acts with him is ridiculous. For two seasons they're like "Hate him! He's the worst!" and then for the next two seasons they're like "Alright, feel sorry for him now". We're shown no character growth or anything, we're just supposed to instantly find him endearing. Man, I swear just thinking about him just drives me up the goddamn wall. EDIT: no pun intended. I think there is a vast difference between Book-Jaime and Show-Jaime. I haven't followed the show, but I have followed the books since 1997. In the books: Jaime Lannister is much more complex than good guy or bad guy. Yeah, in the first two books the reader hates Jaime, because of what he did to Bran, and also because the reader is reading through the POVs of Eddard and Catelyn Stark, who despise and distrust Lannisters; and they never discover the truth about how Bran falls. So it makes sense that through their POVs, he is seen as an enemy and a villain. We get very little interaction with early Tyrion's POVs and it isn't all that warm, merely cordial. Also, in the books, Jaime never gets harassed by Robert, in fact, Robert makes a lot of excuses for Jaime. "Damn it, Ned. He won me the damn throne" Once we get to books 3 and 4, however, things begin to change for Jaime. The reader actually gets Jaime's POV, and we get it while he is with Brienne, which is a huge deal. Jaime changes a lot after being with Brienne, and after losing his sword hand. Even though, he gives Brienne all sorts of grief over her ugliness and so forth, he is also eventually inspired by her actions, devotion, and tenacity. Because, even though Brienne despises Jaime, she still did her duty. He was also humbled mightily by his defeat in the Whispering Wood at the hands of Robb Stark. He was never so arrogant after that. There is a part in Dance of Dragons that really stands out. Jaime is in the White Tower, reading through the White Book, and Loras Tyrell comes in and sits with him. I don't know how well the TV series explains it, but the White Book is record of the deeds of every past and present Kingsguard member. Loras and Jaime have a conversation about the various knights who had served before, eventually Loras states that "The best ones will always be remembered", Jaime responds with "And the worst ones...and even those that were a little of both, like him (gesturing to the page of Ser Criston Cole)" I think that was a moment of Jaime being quite reflective. He is a man that has done bad things and a man who has done good things. "Hell, as the Mad King's bodyguard, how many times has he killed other people who tried to end his reign? How many extra years has Jamie given him to torment his people?"As a part of the Kingsguard? Jaime has killed fewer people than Ser Barristan Selmy or Ser Arthur Dayne, in defense of Mad Aerys. Ser Barristan's finest hour was his rescue of King Aerys at Duskendale, something that Barristan expresses second thoughts about in "Dance", wondering if Aerys had died at Duskendale, and Rhaegar ascended to the throne....how much war would have been avoided? And that is the real strangeness of the whole thing, everyone recognized how much of a monster Aerys was, Rhaegar even recognized it and apparently had plans to deal with it after the war. It is interesting that many in Westeros see it as if Jaime should have shown restraint, did his duty, and kept his vows; while others reflect upon themselves that their vows and doing their duties restrained them from doing what needed to be done. Perhaps. Jaime is a really interesting character, especially when compared to Tyrion. Both of their biggest weaknesses are women, Tyrion frequents brothels, Tycha, Shae, Penny; Jaime is completely infatuated with Cersei Both have nicknames follow them and haunt them. Tyrion's "Imp", "Dwarf" and "Halfman"; Jaime and his "Kingslayer". When you read their POVs these monikers standout, like slaps to the face to the POV. You also see this with Jon Snow and "bastard"
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Post by Main Eventer on Nov 6, 2014 18:41:32 GMT -5
Rafi from The League.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 19:02:05 GMT -5
Stephanie McMahon.
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Post by Starshine on Nov 6, 2014 19:13:49 GMT -5
Rose Tyler. She felt more like Russel T. Davies' very own fantasy Mary Sue lover of The Doctor than an actual person. The way she was written to be the most important person in the universe while also being the center of an ultimately pointless mystery angle in "Bad Wolf" didn't help either. It became especially painful how even when she left the show she was still the most important plot point going on.
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Post by James Fabiano on Nov 6, 2014 19:28:56 GMT -5
No Scrappy-Doo? Oh it's not the 90s anymore, That's right..
Bat-Mite on the New Adventures of Batman cartoon. Worse than Orko, worse than Wendy and Marvin, worse than Scrappy! Yes he was THAT bad. Thank you Paul Reubens for making him cool.
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Nov 6, 2014 19:49:32 GMT -5
No Scrappy-Doo? Oh it's not the 90s anymore, That's right.. Bat-Mite on the New Adventures of Batman cartoon. Worse than Orko, worse than Wendy and Marvin, worse than Scrappy! Yes he was THAT bad. Thank you Paul Reubens for making him cool. When I was a little kid...well...I actually really liked Scrappy. Honestly, I was upset when the movie did what it did to him. I used to hate Orko back in the day, and I do indeed hate the 200x version of him, but going back and watching the original 80's version, he really wasn't that bad. I kinda like him these days. Wendy and Marvin never bothered me one way or the other. As for Bat-Mite, I enjoyed the Brave and the Bold version just fine. Not really sure why I'm responding to this message, I guess I'm just reflecting on my own opinions, LOL! Feel free to hate away, my friend!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 19:54:21 GMT -5
I still say Flim Flam was worse than Scrappy
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 6, 2014 20:18:20 GMT -5
No Scrappy-Doo? Oh it's not the 90s anymore, That's right.. MY friend loves Scrappy and bitched about the movie for weeks I still say Flim Flam was worse than Scrappy At least Scrappy saved the series at the time.
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Post by Mondai Rogue on Nov 6, 2014 20:22:47 GMT -5
Rose Tyler. She felt more like Russel T. Davies' very own fantasy Mary Sue lover of The Doctor than an actual person. The way she was written to be the most important person in the universe while also being the center of an ultimately pointless mystery angle in "Bad Wolf" didn't help either. It became especially painful how even when she left the show she was still the most important plot point going on. I feel the same way about Clara.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 20:43:53 GMT -5
Marie Schrader. {Spoiler}{Spoiler} I so wanted her to be killed off My goodness I hated her so much. {Spoiler}Remember that face she made when she realized Hank was dead? I swear I'm gonna make a t-shirt with that picture on it. She was so annoying.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Nov 6, 2014 20:56:18 GMT -5
Back in May my friend Josh and I were watching Reservoir Dogs (his first time watching this film) and when the rat in the gang reveals himself, Josh immediately had a visceral hatred for him.
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Post by Starshine on Nov 6, 2014 21:09:08 GMT -5
Rose Tyler. She felt more like Russel T. Davies' very own fantasy Mary Sue lover of The Doctor than an actual person. The way she was written to be the most important person in the universe while also being the center of an ultimately pointless mystery angle in "Bad Wolf" didn't help either. It became especially painful how even when she left the show she was still the most important plot point going on. I feel the same way about Clara. I couldn't hate Clara because she was nothing. She had no character. Take away her mystery gimmick and you just had a totally blank slate.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 6, 2014 21:29:33 GMT -5
We're supposed to sympathise with him after being raised to believe his real father is evil, but even after he discovers the truth he's still an insufferable, unlikeable little shit, so much so even the producers admitted defeat and wrote him out of the show.
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Post by King Boo on Nov 6, 2014 21:32:49 GMT -5
We're supposed to sympathise with him after being raised to believe his real father is evil, but even after he discovers the truth he's still an insufferable, unlikeable little shit, so much so even the producers admitted defeat and wrote him out of the show. Hating Connor is not irrational.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 6, 2014 21:40:50 GMT -5
We're supposed to sympathise with him after being raised to believe his real father is evil, but even after he discovers the truth he's still an insufferable, unlikeable little shit, so much so even the producers admitted defeat and wrote him out of the show. Hating Connor is not irrational. Starting off, I agree, but they tried so hard to redeem him later on it's clear we're meant to forgive him and root for him.
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Post by Hurbster on Nov 6, 2014 21:47:22 GMT -5
Lightning. Basically for being forced down our damn throats for 3 crappy games. She makes Micheal Myers look like the most interesting character in the world.
Pretty much universally hated by everyone apart from the bloke in charge of the FF series.
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Post by King Boo on Nov 6, 2014 21:49:43 GMT -5
Hating Connor is not irrational. Starting off, I agree, but they tried so hard to redeem him later on it's clear we're meant to forgive him and root for him. That doesn't mean we're irrational, though, it just means they were trying to give him a redeemable ending. It's up to us whether we accept that ending or not, but doing so doesn't mean that our original dislike wasn't based on anything. I just don't know that they realized that purposefully writing Connor to be so difficult and petulant was going to be such a turn-off. Especially coupled with that creepy pseudo-Cordelia storyline (don't get me started on the obliteration of my beloved Cordy in S4).
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 6, 2014 22:18:36 GMT -5
Starting off, I agree, but they tried so hard to redeem him later on it's clear we're meant to forgive him and root for him. That doesn't mean we're irrational, though, it just means they were trying to give him a redeemable ending. It's up to us whether we accept that ending or not, but doing so doesn't mean that our original dislike wasn't based on anything. I just don't know that they realized that purposefully writing Connor to be so difficult and petulant was going to be such a turn-off. Especially coupled with that creepy pseudo-Cordelia storyline (don't get me started on the obliteration of my beloved Cordy in S4). Point taken. As I said, it was evident we were supposed to sympathise with him from the start because of Holtz manipulating him into hating his father, but they made him just too unlikeable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 0:20:50 GMT -5
He's the best part of the League without him and Dirty Randy where would the show be? I still say Flim Flam was worse than Scrappy No Scrappy is so much worse because he doesn't get to have awesome bacon hair.
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