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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 3, 2014 19:32:48 GMT -5
It's not WWE's own bizarre culture. The sad thing is, it's a culture that exists in stuff like wrestling and football. People are of the mindset "Be a man, and go out there and play injured." or "In the old day, before everything can wussified, people didn't sit out with stuff like concussions. They were tough and went out there." It's a sad sad mindset that exists in contact sports. I understand what you're saying but I can't recall any recent example of a football player getting crap from something as simple as icing down after a game. The Browns a couple years ago put Colt McCoy back in a game with a concussion, the Raiders put Terrell Pryor back into a game with a concussion, and Michigan put Stephen Morris back into a game with a concussion (Brady Hoke was rightfully lambasted for it). Even though it's not football, people talked shit on LeBron James for coming out of a game when he had cramps so bad he had to be helped to the bench. One day, unless this toxic culture changes, someone like Cena will come back from an injury too fast and will lose their career/ability to walk/life in the ring. I mean you only have to look at what Hogan was saying about Edge's retirement, that he should man up. Even though we weren't talking about a sprained ankle, we were talking 'wrestle again and you might never walk again'. Hell, look at Hogan now 'I've got one match left in me, brother' No, Hulk, you really haven't. Wait that happened? He tweeted that if others like himself had listened to doctors they would have retired years ago, and wrestlers work hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 19:40:10 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying but I can't recall any recent example of a football player getting crap from something as simple as icing down after a game. The Browns a couple years ago put Colt McCoy back in a game with a concussion, the Raiders put Terrell Pryor back into a game with a concussion, and Michigan put Stephen Morris back into a game with a concussion (Brady Hoke was rightfully lambasted for it). Even though it's not football, people talked shit on LeBron James for coming out of a game when he had cramps so bad he had to be helped to the bench. Like I said, I understand what you're saying. I wasn't talking about what happens during a game, I was talking about what happens after a game like icing down since Rollins allegedly got crap for that.
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Dec 3, 2014 20:04:35 GMT -5
Yeah there's a lot of people clawing at that Rene Dupree and Bob Holly spot. Like I said, neither of those sound like negligence to me. Especially when one example has two higher ups saying "yeah, you shouldn't wrestle tonight, that looks rough." That one example has Bob Holly's boss telling him to ignore doctor's orders to go on the tour in the first place, which delayed important treatment, likely making the infection much worse, and could have cost him his arm. Yeah, it's lucky that two other people told him not to go out there, but it's pretty cut and dry that it's the company's fault when their bosses compel workers to go against doctor orders for the sake of their jobs. And damn right a lot of people want those spots. To be on national television on the number one wrestling country in the world? Thousands of wrestlers launched their career for that reason. That's why those guys are so expendable for the company, WWE will never have a shortage of wrestlers for the undercard, and very few main eventers skipped the undercard on their way to the top. And sorry, but when the corporation creates an environment where your best choice for refusing to do let yourself get permanent injuries is hoping that whatever budget lawyer you can afford can beat a high-priced legal team for a settlement that may not come close to replacing the wages lost, then the company bears a healthy chunk of the responsibility for creating that environment. You can't tell people "Work injured or be fired" and then say "They chose to work injured so it's their fault." I don't disagree that the WWE needs at attitude adjustment, but I just don't agree with trying to compare these to the punk case. In both cases of dupree and holly, they doubt seem to be misdiagnosed by the doctor. And in Dupree's case, while The doctor shook his head no to going to a different hospital that wasn't wwe approved, nobody told him to work through the injury. And really, if this was actual negligence on the part of WWE and they were guilty of something, then they'd pay out the wazoo just like they did with Punk.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 3, 2014 20:40:47 GMT -5
I don't disagree that the WWE needs at attitude adjustment, but I just don't agree with trying to compare these to the punk case. In both cases of dupree and holly, they doubt seem to be misdiagnosed by the doctor. And in Dupree's case, while The doctor shook his head no to going to a different hospital that wasn't wwe approved, nobody told him to work through the injury. And really, if this was actual negligence on the part of WWE and they were guilty of something, then they'd pay out the wazoo just like they did with Punk. I don't think they're identical, but you said it was largely Holly's fault and I don't see how. Not only did they know it was a dangerous situation, they told him he had to work with it anyways up until the last minute. And in Dupre's case, a bleeding condition is still dangerous, especially when you're dealing with pressure changes. They delayed what could have been vital medical care for their employee to send him to a hospital that cost them less. They're both lucky it didn't turn out to be worse. The situations aren't identical to Punk's, but if these are true, then they're really bad bases cases of WWE as an entity being negligent in regards to their employees health. In fact, I'd argue that they may be even worse, since WWE knew what was wrong, that it was serious, and intentionaly delayed care. I don't get where blaming them for the company forcing that choice on them is justified. Just because it's not at gunpoint doesn't mean they didn't force that choice on them. Whether they'd pay out the wazoo is something we can never know, the fact that they were both just close calls would likely make it pretty difficult for either party to collect much. If these situations had gone worse, then paying for their mistakes wouldn't make WWE any better, it'd be the bare minimum that they were legally responsible for and chances are, both of those payouts would have been eaten by medical costs. Either way, bringing up the results of lawsuits or potential lawsuits is always difficult, because there are so many other factors in play. Lawsuits very often don't come down to who is right or wrong.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Dec 3, 2014 20:43:35 GMT -5
This is why I have absolutely no respect for "THIS BUSINESS".
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Dec 3, 2014 21:13:16 GMT -5
I don't disagree that the WWE needs at attitude adjustment, but I just don't agree with trying to compare these to the punk case. In both cases of dupree and holly, they doubt seem to be misdiagnosed by the doctor. And in Dupree's case, while The doctor shook his head no to going to a different hospital that wasn't wwe approved, nobody told him to work through the injury. And really, if this was actual negligence on the part of WWE and they were guilty of something, then they'd pay out the wazoo just like they did with Punk. I don't think they're identical, but you said it was largely Holly's fault and I don't see how. Not only did they know it was a dangerous situation, they told him he had to work with it anyways up until the last minute. And in Dupre's case, a bleeding condition is still dangerous, especially when you're dealing with pressure changes. They delayed what could have been vital medical care for their employee to send him to a hospital that cost them less. They're both lucky it didn't turn out to be worse. The situations aren't identical to Punk's, but if these are true, then they're really bad bases cases of WWE as an entity being negligent in regards to their employees health. In fact, I'd argue that they may be even worse, since WWE knew what was wrong, that it was serious, and intentionaly delayed care. I don't get where blaming them for the company forcing that choice on them is justified. Whether they'd pay out the wazoo is something we can never know, the fact that they were both just close calls would likely make it pretty difficult for either party to collect much. If these situations had gone worse, then paying for their mistakes wouldn't make WWE any better, it'd be the bare minimum that they were legally responsible for and chances are, both of those payouts would have been eaten by medical costs. Either way, bringing up the results of lawsuits or potential lawsuits is always difficult, because there are so many other factors in play. Lawsuits very often don't come down to who is right or wrong. Holly is a grown man, he took in the facts, and chose to work that tour. It wasn't misdiagnosed, he knew exactly what he had. And just using Punk as an example, with him saying they settled and have him more than he asked for, then if Holly went to the hospital and got fired because of it he could sue for wrongful termination of something and they'd settle so it wouldn't come to light.
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BRV
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Post by BRV on Dec 3, 2014 21:30:44 GMT -5
People keep bringing up this "toxic culture", that the environment in the locker room is abhorrent because people would rather work hurt or injured than risk missing out on a paycheck. That same culture exists, on a much lesser scale, in just about every workplace in the country.
I'm sure somewhere there's a man struggling to make ends meet with a family to feed and bills to pay. And one day he gets sick/hurt. I'm sure this hypothetical person, just like most of us, would rather gut it out at work battling an injury or illness than sit at home and miss a day or two's pay, because every dollar helps.
Maybe that same perspective exists in the WWE. They're not working hurt because of some toxic environment, they're working hurt because that's the only way they'll see a payday. It's no different than a lot of workplaces and a lot of employees today.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 3, 2014 21:46:50 GMT -5
Holly is a grown man, he took in the facts, and chose to work that tour. It wasn't misdiagnosed, he knew exactly what he had. And just using Punk as an example, with him saying they settled and have him more than he asked for, then if Holly went to the hospital and got fired because of it he could sue for wrongful termination of something and they'd settle so it wouldn't come to light. Unless WWE decided to fire him for being black, then "wrongful termination" is probably a hard sell. Theyr'e required to pay him the minimum on his contract, as per the independent contractor thing. He's not legally required to get paid for any medical conditions, worker's comp and the like is for employees. As we've already established, this is different from Punk, so you can't use what happened in Punk's lawsuit and apply it to Holly or Dupree. Punk had the potential malpractice, and as you said, that's no the case here, this is the company acting like dicks and compelling people to work with injuries, which may not be something he can collect on. If he can prove he got the infection at WWE, he could sue for damages, but WWE could probably spin that any number of ways, and lord knows that if this turned into an employee vs. independent contractor thing, it could turn into an even bigger mess. Lawsuits are very expensive and very time consuming, which isn't exactly the ideal situation if you have medical bills piling up. If your health, livelihood, and entire future rested on getting a quick settlement and the company chose not to give that, you're royally f***ed. People have lost everything for less than that, even if they were employees. If WWE isn't compelled by the spectre of malpractice, who knows what they'll do. WWE has a lot more power in this situation than Holly or Dupree, regardless of whether these are grown men. Which is why I don't get why a company that acts immorally and unethically is absolved for acting immorally and unethically just because they're hiring adults rather than kids.
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Dec 3, 2014 23:13:30 GMT -5
People keep bringing up this "toxic culture", that the environment in the locker room is abhorrent because people would rather work hurt or injured than risk missing out on a paycheck. That same culture exists, on a much lesser scale, in just about every workplace in the country. I'm sure somewhere there's a man struggling to make ends meet with a family to feed and bills to pay. And one day he gets sick/hurt. I'm sure this hypothetical person, just like most of us, would rather gut it out at work battling an injury or illness than sit at home and miss a day or two's pay, because every dollar helps. Maybe that same perspective exists in the WWE. They're not working hurt because of some toxic environment, they're working hurt because that's the only way they'll see a payday. It's no different than a lot of workplaces and a lot of employees today. I think the main difference here is that we're not talking about an office worker going to work with a cold or flu (which is irresponsible enough in itself, but that's another topic for another day), but guys going to work injured to get beat up further doing their job, with much higher potential for long-term damage. I don't think you have too many office workers blowing off, say, a cancer diagnosis. Not the best comparison, but hopefully it makes sense.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 3, 2014 23:51:20 GMT -5
People keep bringing up this "toxic culture", that the environment in the locker room is abhorrent because people would rather work hurt or injured than risk missing out on a paycheck. That same culture exists, on a much lesser scale, in just about every workplace in the country. I'm sure somewhere there's a man struggling to make ends meet with a family to feed and bills to pay. And one day he gets sick/hurt. I'm sure this hypothetical person, just like most of us, would rather gut it out at work battling an injury or illness than sit at home and miss a day or two's pay, because every dollar helps. Maybe that same perspective exists in the WWE. They're not working hurt because of some toxic environment, they're working hurt because that's the only way they'll see a payday. It's no different than a lot of workplaces and a lot of employees today. I think the main difference here is that we're not talking about an office worker going to work with a cold or flu (which is irresponsible enough in itself, but that's another topic for another day), but guys going to work injured to get beat up further doing their job, with much higher potential for long-term damage. I don't think you have too many office workers blowing off, say, a cancer diagnosis. Not the best comparison, but hopefully it makes sense. I also think there's a degree of scale. Wrestling is a painful job, everyone gets that, but there's a certain point when expecting people to work through certain injuries or when putting their own bottom line ahead of an extremely dangerous condition that you can't let it go. Bumps, bruises, pains, strains, they're a part it. Staph infections? They're not. They put others at risk. And there's another part of it to me, yes, wrestlers can want to wrestle with it, but it's not like they book themselves in the show. The company decides who wrestles, they have every bit of power to tell a guy to take care of that infectious skin condition before grabbing other wrestlers.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 4, 2014 0:01:36 GMT -5
People keep bringing up this "toxic culture", that the environment in the locker room is abhorrent because people would rather work hurt or injured than risk missing out on a paycheck. That same culture exists, on a much lesser scale, in just about every workplace in the country. I'm sure somewhere there's a man struggling to make ends meet with a family to feed and bills to pay. And one day he gets sick/hurt. I'm sure this hypothetical person, just like most of us, would rather gut it out at work battling an injury or illness than sit at home and miss a day or two's pay, because every dollar helps. Maybe that same perspective exists in the WWE. They're not working hurt because of some toxic environment, they're working hurt because that's the only way they'll see a payday. It's no different than a lot of workplaces and a lot of employees today. I think the main difference here is that we're not talking about an office worker going to work with a cold or flu (which is irresponsible enough in itself, but that's another topic for another day), but guys going to work injured to get beat up further doing their job, with much higher potential for long-term damage. I don't think you have too many office workers blowing off, say, a cancer diagnosis. Not the best comparison, but hopefully it makes sense. I agree with this. Most corporations and/or blue collar Union jobs have short term disability built in where workers can take home pay if they are not well. Wrestlers "policing themselves" into working injured- check into the Dynamite Kid.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 4, 2014 0:55:14 GMT -5
Again with Holly's a lot of that is his fault. The doctor diagnosed it, he didn't ignore it like Punk's doctor. He could have refused to go on tour, and if he gets fired and can prove that's why then he's got a huge settlement coming his way. But he chose, HE CHOSE, to work. The difference with punk is that he kept saying "hey can we do something about this?" And he kept getting ignored. You're treating personal choice as the ultimate be all and end all and while it would be nice to live in a world where individualism made sense we don't. Like a culture being toxic and smothering and dangerous is a thing that exists and thats what Hardocre Holly and Dupree's stories point to. A toxic backstage culture. Also like superiors have a responsibility to subordinates and when you are stuck in the type of culture WWE produces personal choice matters basically for shit. Its a cult-like atmosphere almost, I don't think thats a stretch. So yes I do absolutly think the WWE is responsible because anyone with an ounce of empathy or understanding would be like "hey maybe we should encourage our employees to stay healthy and treat their injuries" but they're not. They're actively DISCOURAGING that and I don't think that can be levied to being the fault of the employees. Yes they made the final "choice" but thats not the POINT of these stories. Acting like Holly and Dupree having some personal responsibility for their choices means the WWE are off the hook for their role in this toxic culture is something I can't understand at all.
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