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Post by knightrider01 on May 29, 2015 20:17:07 GMT -5
Can we please be a little more judicious in how we use "censorship?" because I'm seeing a lot of people mistaking "a company changing their game to sell more units and make more money" for "censorship." Because that honestly is a big f*** you to people who have ACTUALLY been censored throughout history. When a network makes changes to a TV show (whether I personally like those changes or not) to appease an audience they want to watch their show, that's not censorship. Same goes for VG devs/companies. That's people trying to make money. That is capitalism at its best or worst, depending on your stance. That's MONEY. And its what its all about. If people celebrate when something they don't like is banned/not-banned, that doesn't mean those same people are an insidious force whose machinations made it happen. I swear, I honestly can't tell which side of these pathetic, ongoing culture wars is more prone to fabrication and conspiratorial delusions. The really unfortunate thing is that the more people see it as a "war" or an "us vs them" thing with each side spitefully digging their heels in (and both sides do it and NO ONE come at me with, "well, they started it!") the sadder we all look as a people. So, please, feel free to go on imagining all the malevolent forces at play against "your side" that are censoring, not censoring, pushing agenda for change or for things to stay the same or whatever, but try to do it some sense that on the other end of the computer is a person. Not an agenda, not a hashtag, and not one of a group "out to get you." Because what I see A LOT online, but less so here, is just some very weak ass examples of humanity. And it makes me feel very, very sad about being a part of community that exists online. Except these things are censorship. Any group that forms in order to change something because they are offended by a joke or content is censorship. The ACLU again says so. Also I highly doubt many of these people actually or read the things they get offended by. Because most of the game they play really don't sell. Remember the Remender thing last year. People believed that Sam Wilson a teenager, even though said women even states she is older than 23. Yet again they wanted him fired. Or some one calling Witcher 3 is made of rape. Hell speaking about The Witcher some people believe its racist because there are no minorities in it. But again the game is full of discussion about racism about Elves and Dwarf's, but since they are white it doesn't count, why because you can't be racist against white people. Just ask the Irish.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on May 29, 2015 20:22:47 GMT -5
Oh no, Obsidian had to remove a single bit of transphobic trash from their game which they themselves said hadn't been properly vetted like their procedures said should have been done. That one thing was replaced by a different limerick. Video games are ruined forever. Such terrible censorship. Actually it was a transphoic joke. It was about a guy who got drunk slept with a man and then killed himself. Not transphobic, homophobic yes. Also it was fan submission that paid for the joke himself. Then replaced it with about people who get easily offended. Also, yes it was censorship. Not a big scale one but seeing how a pressure group forced them to look into and even ask the guy to change it because it offended them is wrong. I know we can't talk about "it" but censorship is happening. Not acknowledging it doesn't it's not there. The "joke" was that he slept with a woman who he then discovers to be, in his eyes, a man. It's the trans panic trope all over again. The concept that trans people are just disguising themselves as a different gender so they can trick/trap people into sleeping with them. Sleeping with a trans person is inherently disgusting and can only be cured with death. The only difference in this example is that it's not the woman who ends up dead as happens in real life (and is legal in 49 states). Again, Obsidian said that it slipped through their vetting and shouldn't have been there to begin with. That's not censorship. That's doing things the way they should be done. But you know what? Even if it was censorship in some weird new definition of the word, GOOD. I want sexism, transphobia, biphobia and homophobia to be absent from games. Why not? Censor away. This is a change that won't stop games from being made, it won't stop any kind of artistic expression, it'll just stop one outlet of discrimination and hatred in an already pretty toxic community.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 20:23:10 GMT -5
Can we please be a little more judicious in how we use "censorship?" because I'm seeing a lot of people mistaking "a company changing their game to sell more units and make more money" for "censorship." Because that honestly is a big f*** you to people who have ACTUALLY been censored throughout history. When a network makes changes to a TV show (whether I personally like those changes or not) to appease an audience they want to watch their show, that's not censorship. Same goes for VG devs/companies. That's people trying to make money. That is capitalism at its best or worst, depending on your stance. That's MONEY. And its what its all about. If people celebrate when something they don't like is banned/not-banned, that doesn't mean those same people are an insidious force whose machinations made it happen. I swear, I honestly can't tell which side of these pathetic, ongoing culture wars is more prone to fabrication and conspiratorial delusions. The really unfortunate thing is that the more people see it as a "war" or an "us vs them" thing with each side spitefully digging their heels in (and both sides do it and NO ONE come at me with, "well, they started it!") the sadder we all look as a people. So, please, feel free to go on imagining all the malevolent forces at play against "your side" that are censoring, not censoring, pushing agenda for change or for things to stay the same or whatever, but try to do it some sense that on the other end of the computer is a person. Not an agenda, not a hashtag, and not one of a group "out to get you." Because what I see A LOT online, but less so here, is just some very weak ass examples of humanity. And it makes me feel very, very sad about being a part of community that exists online. Except these things are censorship. Any group that forms in order to change something because they are offended by a joke or content is censorship. The ACLU again says so. Also I highly doubt many of these people actually or read the things they get offended by. Because most of the game they play really don't sell. Remember the Remender thing last year. People believed that Sam Wilson a teenager, even though said women even states she is older than 23. Yet again they wanted him fired. Or some one calling Witcher 3 is made of rape. Hell speaking about The Witcher some people believe its racist because there are no minorities in it. But again the game is full of discussion about racism about Elves and Dwarf's, but since they are white it doesn't count, why because you can't be racist against white people. Just ask the Irish. Actually its not censorship, according to the ACLU. A group that forms in order to change something isn't censorship. That group is protected by the First Amendment, which means their actions are, by definition, NOT censorship, but free speech. Free speech, my friend, it applies to both sides.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on May 29, 2015 20:23:10 GMT -5
Racism against the Irish historically is also about the convergence between colonialist logic and class logic when it comes to repressing people, which as such legitimated the structural racism against the Irish. As such, racism rarely exists in a vacuum, then or today. EDIT: Which, to reduce racism against the Irish as 'white people have experienced systemic oppression too' misses the point of how applications of power overlap.
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Post by Cyno on May 29, 2015 20:33:11 GMT -5
Racism against the Irish was specifically because they weren't seen as "white" by the privileged class at the time: Anglo-Saxon Protestants. Then they got seen as "white" as they assimilated into that privileged class.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Post by Dub H on May 29, 2015 20:36:42 GMT -5
Oh, you're one of those "ethics in games journalism" folks aren't you. Well,took longe than i expected for someone to say that. I expected it in to be by page 3
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Posts: 47,865
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Post by Dub H on May 29, 2015 20:37:56 GMT -5
Also the Obsidian censor one: The guy that had the game placed in the game(from the kickstart) asked to change.They didn't have to.
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Malcolm
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Eternally Confused
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Post by Malcolm on May 29, 2015 20:52:07 GMT -5
Actually it was a transphoic joke. It was about a guy who got drunk slept with a man and then killed himself. Not transphobic, homophobic yes. Also it was fan submission that paid for the joke himself. Then replaced it with about people who get easily offended. Also, yes it was censorship. Not a big scale one but seeing how a pressure group forced them to look into and even ask the guy to change it because it offended them is wrong. I know we can't talk about "it" but censorship is happening. Not acknowledging it doesn't it's not there. The "joke" was that he slept with a woman who he then discovers to be, in his eyes, a man. It's the trans panic trope all over again. The concept that trans people are just disguising themselves as a different gender so they can trick/trap people into sleeping with them. Sleeping with a trans person is inherently disgusting and can only be cured with death. The only difference in this example is that it's not the woman who ends up dead as happens in real life (and is legal in 49 states). Again, Obsidian said that it slipped through their vetting and shouldn't have been there to begin with. That's not censorship. That's doing things the way they should be done. But you know what? Even if it was censorship in some weird new definition of the word, GOOD. I want sexism, transphobia, biphobia and homophobia to be absent from games. Why not? Censor away. This is a change that won't stop games from being made, it won't stop any kind of artistic expression, it'll just stop one outlet of discrimination and hatred in an already pretty toxic community. THE F***?!?
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,434
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Post by FinalGwen on May 29, 2015 20:56:50 GMT -5
The "joke" was that he slept with a woman who he then discovers to be, in his eyes, a man. It's the trans panic trope all over again. The concept that trans people are just disguising themselves as a different gender so they can trick/trap people into sleeping with them. Sleeping with a trans person is inherently disgusting and can only be cured with death. The only difference in this example is that it's not the woman who ends up dead as happens in real life (and is legal in 49 states). Again, Obsidian said that it slipped through their vetting and shouldn't have been there to begin with. That's not censorship. That's doing things the way they should be done. But you know what? Even if it was censorship in some weird new definition of the word, GOOD. I want sexism, transphobia, biphobia and homophobia to be absent from games. Why not? Censor away. This is a change that won't stop games from being made, it won't stop any kind of artistic expression, it'll just stop one outlet of discrimination and hatred in an already pretty toxic community. THE F***?!? If someone says that they flirted/interacted sexually with someone but they turn out to be trans, and they murder them, the charge can be reduced from murder to manslaughter. This is, somehow, a genuine legal defense. California's the only one to have legally ruled it out.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
Too Salty
Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on May 29, 2015 21:07:10 GMT -5
Oh, you're one of those "ethics in games journalism" folks aren't you.
And if he is? So what? I'm not on Twitter but I see more garbage out of Anti-Gamergate than Gamergate itself.
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Post by Cyno on May 29, 2015 21:07:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I've heard about this "trans panic defense" thing. When I saw news about California being the first state to forbid it as a valid legal defense against murder, my first thought was "Wait a second. You mean it's valid in the other 49? What the f***."
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
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Watching you.
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Post by wisdomwizard on May 29, 2015 21:18:47 GMT -5
^Yeah that is straight garbage. No way it should be seen as a valid defense.
Anyway, if Hatred manages to get on Gamefly, I'll rent it to see how it is but I doubt it will be special.
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Post by knightrider01 on May 29, 2015 21:41:23 GMT -5
Actually it was a transphoic joke. It was about a guy who got drunk slept with a man and then killed himself. Not transphobic, homophobic yes. Also it was fan submission that paid for the joke himself. Then replaced it with about people who get easily offended. Also, yes it was censorship. Not a big scale one but seeing how a pressure group forced them to look into and even ask the guy to change it because it offended them is wrong. I know we can't talk about "it" but censorship is happening. Not acknowledging it doesn't it's not there. The "joke" was that he slept with a woman who he then discovers to be, in his eyes, a man. It's the trans panic trope all over again. The concept that trans people are just disguising themselves as a different gender so they can trick/trap people into sleeping with them. Sleeping with a trans person is inherently disgusting and can only be cured with death. The only difference in this example is that it's not the woman who ends up dead as happens in real life (and is legal in 49 states). Again, Obsidian said that it slipped through their vetting and shouldn't have been there to begin with. That's not censorship. That's doing things the way they should be done. But you know what? Even if it was censorship in some weird new definition of the word, GOOD. I want sexism, transphobia, biphobia and homophobia to be absent from games. Why not? Censor away. This is a change that won't stop games from being made, it won't stop any kind of artistic expression, it'll just stop one outlet of discrimination and hatred in an already pretty toxic community. The joke was that a drunk guy slept with a man. It never mentioned or implied it was a woman. Also that's a good mentality to have censor for the greater good. Because never in history has censorship been a bad thing. Also never in history have bad words or ideas become good and vice versa. Also Obisdian didn't let is slip through it was paid for by a backer and no one cared until people started to complain. Just like everything all it takes is tumblr and twitter to complain till everything goes to crap. And again it will stop artistic expression. Because any thing you make in negative light even for satire or portray people realistically can't be done.
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Post by knightrider01 on May 29, 2015 21:47:35 GMT -5
Oh, you're one of those "ethics in games journalism" folks aren't you. Well,took longe than i expected for someone to say that. I expected it in to be by page 3 Fine then yes I am those who won't be named. I consider myself apart of #Gamergate. You know those guys who are worse than ISIS and the KKK put together. Those who can't meet at a bar without getting a bomb threat. Who can't have a different opinion with out getting kicked out of conventions then have the cops called two day later in a park. Those who have their houses blue prints and addresses put online. Those who are put on a poorly programmed block list that includes the Pope and KFC. Oh also those who in three months time will have a legitimate organization as the SPJ taking them seriously and having a debate. A debate that so far all the "victims" of GG have refused to show up except one guys who wanted 30 K. So yes I am human scum who shouldn't be listened to and probably rounded up and killed, why? Because I use a hashtag.
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Post by knightrider01 on May 29, 2015 21:49:16 GMT -5
Again not the joke, the straight guy killed himself. Also don't use California a bastion of hope. Remember they did ban same sex marriage.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on May 29, 2015 21:50:24 GMT -5
Can I please just ask enough about what the ACLU considers to be censorship? It is completely and utterly irrelevant what the aclu considers to be censorship. Its nothing more than an opinion held by some people that identify themselves as a group. It is no more valid than any of our personal opinions on what we decide censorship is.
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Post by knightrider01 on May 29, 2015 21:51:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I've heard about this "trans panic defense" thing. When I saw news about California being the first state to forbid it as a valid legal defense against murder, my first thought was "Wait a second. You mean it's valid in the other 49? What the f***." You're right that is complete garbage that needs to be changed. That being said being a woman or trans person doesn't mean your free from criticism.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 29, 2015 21:52:51 GMT -5
We're getting too far into legislation talk, so I'm gonna have to cut off the discussion here.
Also, in the near future- and I'm not pointing out any one specifically, this goes for everyone- don't push GamerGate talking points here. Just objectively speaking, there's a lot of negativity associated with it, and as of now it's something very likely to provoke angry reactions from people. As a board, we don't want to go near that scene.
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