i just had a realization..

[Hawk Hart]

Dec 17, 2014 12:32:50 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

Dec 17, 2014 12:21:22 GMT -5 BigWill said:

Then I guess he's failing at his job.

Please explain how heel Cena will lead to increased revenue?

It would revitalize an audience that's been alienated during his decade run of winning pretty much no matter f***ing what. You take the goody two shoes face and you make him into a bastard heel, you're going to see at least a portion of the lapsed fan audience tuning in for at least a few weeks to see what Heel Cena is all about. If booked properly, it could be the Bash at the Beach '96 moment for this generation. So yeah, if Cena turned heel and generated new interest in the product by way of new or returning viewers then that likely translates into ticket/merch sales which in turn leads to an increase in revenue.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Dec 17, 2014 11:44:34 GMT -5 Sparkybob said:

Dec 17, 2014 1:20:30 GMT -5 @ambrosefan said:

All I'm saying is John doesn't seem to be a very forward thinking person and would be content dragging the company down with his staleness rather than change anything he's doing, even something as small as not doing his stupid unfunny stand up comedy routine.

If I were John, I wouldn't give a shit about the company's well being. Like if Vince wants to keep booking Cena in main event slots and giving him large paycheck then I can't blame him for just doing what gets him the most money.

Wrestling is an awful business so Cena should be looking out for himself first.

So Cena shouldn't use his influence to try to make wrestling better for the boys?

[Lila]

Uh, I'm most positive Cena in the past has said he's been wanting to turn heel for a while and WWE doesn't want him too.

[Sparkybob]

Dec 17, 2014 13:11:22 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Dec 17, 2014 11:44:34 GMT -5 Sparkybob said:

If I were John, I wouldn't give a shit about the company's well being. Like if Vince wants to keep booking Cena in main event slots and giving him large paycheck then I can't blame him for just doing what gets him the most money.

Wrestling is an awful business so Cena should be looking out for himself first.

So Cena shouldn't use his influence to try to make wrestling better for the boys?

It's not his responsibility to that. I'm sure if Vince told him he wanted someone to go over him to become a bigger star he wouldn't mind much. His job is to wrestle well and do what the boss tell him to do.

[Woo]

He hasn't turned heel for a lot of reasons. He may want to keep his spot and rake in that T-Shirt money. Vince is scared to turn him heel in case they start losing money. But I think is because Vince is so stupid he thinks face Cena is working.

It's too late for Cena to be saved as a face now, it's over. But they should have tried to make the adults like him as the children will like whatever they are told to like.

John Cena is basically like All American Lex Luger, but this time rather than going for a more popular wrestler ala' Bret Hart, Vince has decided that he's done bowing down to the fans and that we'll get his dream sueprstar whether we like it or not.

[Reflecto]

Dec 17, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

People want Cena to do the exact same act that he does now, except he's conveniently booked against babyfaces. They want him to be an "evil Superman" but that's not going to happen.

Heel Cena would likely cut promos in suits, wrestle in tights/trunks, and be stripped of every facet of his character that you love (to hate). And despite being booked as Superman as a face, as a heel he'd be a coward that runs away from a fight with even the lowest faces on the totem pole.

Exactly- and this is more of a point that even right now, he does this very well. The WWE doesn't do the angle well, but when they run it- Cena's always been very good at playing the "Away Team" angle of "yeah, I'm a good guy and everyone knows this- but I also know I'm going into this guy's home court, he's going to be the hero here, and I can live with that- but I'm also not going to curl up and lose to him just to make people happy there either" (think RVD at ONS II, CM Punk at MITB 2011, and to a lesser extent Daniel Bryan at Summerslam 2013). If Cena was allowed to play that angle more, I think it'd be a shot in the arm for him in both ways: He'd have an excuse to regularly fight both heels and babyfaces, and give the fans who hate him more people to cheer against him [while staying true to "Cena", and by making it clear Cena has the utmost respect for his opponent this month, giving the kids more people to cheer.]

[ritt works hard fo da chickens]

Well first of all nothing is going to spike ratings. At least in the long term. Television ratings are becoming more and more irrelevant. I'm sorry to all those still clinging to the attitude era but those days are gone and trying to recapture them is the fastest way to death. (See TNA) Cena is carrying the company through the transition. He shouldn't be compared to Hogan or Austin/Rock, he should be compared to Backlund and Bret/HBK who were the faces of a company shifting goalposts. And in that regard he stands pretty dang tall. Maybe Gorgeous George could be compared too as he ushered in a new era. PPVs don't matter and are a dieing form. Any revenue they get from them is nice but they can't bank on them for a future. Television is a clotted medium and with DVRs, on demand, and streaming there is no immediacy to watch anything like there was in the past.

It's funny how that during Cena's time at the top the current champion is Brock, the longest reign during which was CM Punk whose defining moment was beating Cena, he put over an attitude star at a mania, is the one to make Daniel Bryan look great (it wasn't trips and gang that was just him making the most of his annual mania jobbing), I mean even if he turned heel I am sure fans would find a way to rip it apart because he'd still be the face of a stagnant company with a lot more potential then they are realizing.

[Reflecto]

Dec 17, 2014 13:33:57 GMT -5 Woo said:

They should have tried to make the adults like him as the children will like whatever they are told to like.

John Cena is basically like All American Lex Luger, but this time rather than going for a more popular wrestler ala' Bret Hart, Vince has decided that he's done bowing down to the fans and that we'll get his dream sueprstar whether we like it or not.

But this also ties into another issue- right now, the adult fans, by and large, are hipsters. Vince can no longer bow down to the fans because the adult fans are driven by "It's Popular, Now It Sucks." We see it with Cena, we see it with people getting some good pre-hate on Roman Reigns, we saw it when the WWE pushed back at pushing Zack Ryder for months as the fans were driven into nearly rioting for him, WWE finally relented, and within a week or two the fans said "lol j/k. U MAD?"...and this isn't even an "indies vs. WWE" thing, because even CM Punk and Daniel Bryan started getting some hate when they got to be the guy at the top of the card.

Quite frankly, to adult fans, it's just not COOL to like the top babyface in the company anymore and it never will be again. It's just cooler to like the heels, or only cheer for midcarders or lower, or cheer for NXT wrestlers. With that in mind- why should they change it for people who'll just turn on the replacement?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 17, 2014 13:57:21 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Quite frankly, to adult fans, it's just not COOL to like the top babyface in the company anymore and it never will be again. It's just cooler to like the heels, or only cheer for midcarders or lower, or cheer for NXT wrestlers.

That's why I don't think it's weird when I claim that was a reason I've lost interest. The fans are a crucial part of the show, and since they've decided they're fiercely opposed to the kind of faces I enjoy, what's the point?

Someone mentioned "how good I have it" as a Cena fan. It's not much fun when your favorite part of the show's widely regarded as an albatross.

[Woo]

Dec 17, 2014 13:57:21 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Dec 17, 2014 13:33:57 GMT -5 Woo said:

They should have tried to make the adults like him as the children will like whatever they are told to like.

John Cena is basically like All American Lex Luger, but this time rather than going for a more popular wrestler ala' Bret Hart, Vince has decided that he's done bowing down to the fans and that we'll get his dream sueprstar whether we like it or not.

But this also ties into another issue- right now, the adult fans, by and large, are hipsters. Vince can no longer bow down to the fans because the adult fans are driven by "It's Popular, Now It Sucks." We see it with Cena, we see it with people getting some good pre-hate on Roman Reigns, we saw it when the WWE pushed back at pushing Zack Ryder for months as the fans were driven into nearly rioting for him, WWE finally relented, and within a week or two the fans said "lol j/k. U MAD?"...and this isn't even an "indies vs. WWE" thing, because even CM Punk and Daniel Bryan started getting some hate when they got to be the guy at the top of the card.

Quite frankly, to adult fans, it's just not COOL to like the top babyface in the company anymore and it never will be again. It's just cooler to like the heels, or only cheer for midcarders or lower, or cheer for NXT wrestlers. With that in mind- why should they change it for people who'll just turn on the replacement?

I never really heard anbody hating on Daniel Bryan's main eventing. I recall people hating CM Punk when they gave him John Cena style jokes about Johnny Ace however.

I don't agree that they hate the #1babyface automatically, I think it's just that when they become it the WWE shape them into whatever they view as their top star. John Cena was turned babyface slowly, but then a year later changed his character overnight and that's when the fans started to turn on him.

[Captain & Diet]

Dec 17, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

People want Cena to do the exact same act that he does now, except he's conveniently booked against babyfaces. They want him to be an "evil Superman" but that's not going to happen.

Heel Cena would likely cut promos in suits, wrestle in tights/trunks, and be stripped of every facet of his character that you love (to hate). And despite being booked as Superman as a face, as a heel he'd be a coward that runs away from a fight with even the lowest faces on the totem pole.

Is evil Superman actually Bizzaro?

[Allie Kitsune]

Dec 17, 2014 13:11:22 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

So Cena shouldn't use his influence to try to make wrestling better for the boys?

No.

He's under no obligation to anyone to sacrifice his own advantage for their sake.

Cena knows that he's the only guy who can work the "Cena Schedule". Other people (Orton, Punk, Big Dave, Miz) have tried to do it and come up short.

The "system" is tailored perfect to (and honestly, around) Cena (him doing things the way he does has colored Vince's expectations), so his Robot-like ability to keep going is the only thing that makes him special. It's his whole identity, so there's no way he'll willingly give it up...

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

People want Cena to do the exact same act that he does now, except he's conveniently booked against babyfaces. They want him to be an "evil Superman" but that's not going to happen.

Heel Cena would likely cut promos in suits, wrestle in tights/trunks, and be stripped of every facet of his character that you love (to hate). And despite being booked as Superman as a face, as a heel he'd be a coward that runs away from a fight with even the lowest faces on the totem pole.

When Hogan turned heel he went from American Hero Superman to Coward That Runs Away so why can't Cena?

Seriously, what makes him so different and immune from doing what pretty much every top babyface has done? He's gotta change with the times sooner or later or hes in for a very rude awakening.

[CATCH_US IS the Conversation]

Dec 17, 2014 15:58:08 GMT -5 @ambrosefan said:

Dec 17, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

People want Cena to do the exact same act that he does now, except he's conveniently booked against babyfaces. They want him to be an "evil Superman" but that's not going to happen.

Heel Cena would likely cut promos in suits, wrestle in tights/trunks, and be stripped of every facet of his character that you love (to hate). And despite being booked as Superman as a face, as a heel he'd be a coward that runs away from a fight with even the lowest faces on the totem pole.

When Hogan turned heel he went from American Hero Superman to Coward That Runs Away so why can't Cena?

Seriously, what makes him so different and immune from doing what pretty much every top babyface has done? He's gotta change with the times sooner or later or hes in for a very rude awakening.

There's nothing wrong with it. But that's not what these people want. They don't want Cena to be Hollywood Hogan. They want to see Never Give Up, Rise Above Hate, American Hero Cena as the bad guy. They want him to keep the Fruity Pebble T-Shirts and armbands, except he's wrestling Dolph Ziggler and Roman Reigns instead of Seth Rollins and Big Show. Oh, but he also changes the name of his finisher to the Spoiler Alert because it's "meta", "ironic", or "funny" or something like that. In their minds, Cena as he is now is the bad guy and they're just waiting for him to actually be presented as one. The idea of a Heel Cena has been so romanticized that if it happened in reality, it would be quite Underwhelming.

[abjordans]

I don't agree with this at all.. I want Cena to be so far from that character that it isn't funny. I want something new.

[sonofblaine]

Dec 17, 2014 1:09:17 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

Dec 17, 2014 0:51:09 GMT -5 mrtuesday said:

He's his spot. Simple as that.

No. That's not why he won't turn heel.

And I don't think Cena needs to turn heel in order for another face to rise up. WWE could just conveniently book another face into his spot if they so wanted. WWE could easily have a different face in the last segment/match on RAW/PPVs if they so wish without changing a thing about Cena's actual character or booking.

I agree. I was thinking about this just today. You could have Cena moved to midcard and make room for a new, fresher crew of Main Event talent, and still use Cena as a mascot for the kids. Just look at Sin Cara. He's been lower card on the main roster almost since his debut, but he gets tons of facetime on posters, school folders, and even the Scooby cartoon.

[Evil Homer]

Dec 17, 2014 0:51:09 GMT -5 mrtuesday said:

He's protecting his spot. Simple as that.

Could not agree more , the man is making millions- while living out his dream. And goes home with Nikki Bella,

[ritt works hard fo da chickens]

Dec 17, 2014 15:58:08 GMT -5 @ambrosefan said:

Dec 17, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -5 CATCH_US IS the Conversation said:

People want Cena to do the exact same act that he does now, except he's conveniently booked against babyfaces. They want him to be an "evil Superman" but that's not going to happen.

Heel Cena would likely cut promos in suits, wrestle in tights/trunks, and be stripped of every facet of his character that you love (to hate). And despite being booked as Superman as a face, as a heel he'd be a coward that runs away from a fight with even the lowest faces on the totem pole.

When Hogan turned heel he went from American Hero Superman to Coward That Runs Away so why can't Cena?

Seriously, what makes him so different and immune from doing what pretty much every top babyface has done? He's gotta change with the times sooner or later or hes in for a very rude awakening.

Can we just dismiss the idea that all top faces had to turn heel to stay relevant. It failed as often as it worked. Rock had a good heel run, Hogan had an epic heel run, and Trips wasn't a top draw until his heel turn. Other than that what do we have to prove this theory? Austin's heel run got a one week shock when he joined with Vince and then became comedy gold in skits with Angle and was not booed, and when he tried to go heel by siding with WCW it flopped and Angle the WWF hero got the boos. I mean Hogan raked in cash with a heel turn but Goldberg and Sting's heel turns set cash on fire and threw it out the window. Taker's had about as many flopped heel turns as successful ones and even then he was rarely the centerpiece of the company. Bruno never turned once he became the guy. Warrior never turned from the time he showed up and rose to Hogan's level. Savage did but it was with Hogan as the companies focus. Cena is the company, he is the stability stockholders like. The list of countless other turns were never THE guy, Angle, Jericho, Eddie, etc. were great champs but hardly the face of an era. I guess Bret and HBK were tops of an era but did their turns really rake in any more cash then they made before?

[Reflecto]

Dec 17, 2014 13:56:42 GMT -5 ritt works hard fo da chickens said:

Well first of all nothing is going to spike ratings. At least in the long term. Television ratings are becoming more and more irrelevant. I'm sorry to all those still clinging to the attitude era but those days are gone and trying to recapture them is the fastest way to death. (See TNA) Cena is carrying the company through the transition. He shouldn't be compared to Hogan or Austin/Rock, he should be compared to Backlund and Bret/HBK who were the faces of a company shifting goalposts. And in that regard he stands pretty dang tall. Maybe Gorgeous George could be compared too as he ushered in a new era. PPVs don't matter and are a dieing form. Any revenue they get from them is nice but they can't bank on them for a future. Television is a clotted medium and with DVRs, on demand, and streaming there is no immediacy to watch anything like there was in the past.

But that's the difference- and right now, it's the most depressing thought of all of them:

-Ratings are more and more irrelevant as television becomes irrelevant.

-PPVs are a dead breed because of the WWE Network.

-The WWE Network has quickly become a "you either get it or you don't" medium, and nothing on the network will change your mind either way.


Put those together: Right now, there IS no way to determine a draw ever again...and that means the answer for "who the big draw is" will be "whoever the company DECIDES is the big draw, whether it succeeds or fails".

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2014 13:12:45 GMT -5 Lila said:

Uh, I'm most positive Cena in the past has said he's been wanting to turn heel for a while and WWE doesn't want him too.

But he's also said the things the OP were talking about. So which is it? It literally cannot be both.

I do remember hearing that Cena wanted to turn heel, but I thought it was from a former writer or someone else close to the situation.

On the way to Mania 28, I had rented a car so I got satelite radio, and he was on some wrestling radio show. He said the heel turn will never, ever happen because he doesn't want to compromise the character he's built and he would let down those who look up to him. I do understand that, however, that does come across a bit self-righteous. "The people need me too much"...ehhhhh. I don't know, maybe I'm being a dick. But, honestly, John Cena turning heel is not going to destroy childrens' lives. They'll cheer the guy who kicks his ass for turning his back on them.

So, it could be that WWE doesn't want him to turn heel. But the reasons people give why he shouldn't, like the famed "the crowd reactions will just reverse" (which is total bull, if Cena's facing someone the crowd loves they're not going to turn on that guy to cheer heel Cena), none of them really hold water for me. The reason he SHOULD, a re-vitalized product and it being the biggest possible move they could make when fan interest is indisputably waning, out-weighs those hypothetical things.