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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 18, 2014 14:00:10 GMT -5
Good thread, BTW. I'd like to see a "reverse" version too; i.e. whose push isn't/wasn't as solid as some people make it out to be?
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Madagascar Fred
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Dec 18, 2014 17:41:04 GMT -5
Bagwell in WCW from his debut in 91 til the latter stages of the American Males team in 96 was pretty protected, every time he lost it was surely via shenanigans, even sneaked in 2 short tag title reigns
Malenko from his debut in WCW in fall 95 until around mid-97 was very well-booked and very rarely lost clean, held the CW title multiple times plus the US title
Ahmed's entire WWF run
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Post by Viking Hall on Dec 18, 2014 18:14:45 GMT -5
Good point haha. Yeah, maybe things wouldn't have been much different in hindsight. Although, who was Kanyon's hookup? DDP? Did DDP have much pull? I'm not questioning you btw, I think I'm just generally a bit unaware of his career as he was someone I never really clicked with.
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Dec 18, 2014 20:43:37 GMT -5
Man, I've been in these forums since it was like eazyboards or whatever and this is seriously the exact opposite of a thread about the same guys. Almost ten yrs ago I was one of three people who said those guys were pushed and we got flamed and called trolls etc. Times have changed. Thank you. All of you wcw defenders. It's a merry Christmas afterall
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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 18, 2014 22:01:48 GMT -5
I mean, on paper if this was a sport, there would be no shame in dropping down a few levels, it happens all of the time, someone isn't ready to retire but hasn't got the legs for the highest level anymore, so they do a good job a league or two below, it's no big deal and no one is bothered. But how many bona fide wrestling superstars have done that? None that I can think of. Wrestlers who have been at the top of the game for any period of time stay at the top and to be honest this just completely f***s over any sort of natural evolution or progression the business should have... but then it's a culture that's so deeply ingrained that perhaps it's something that will never change either. I think what I'm saying is that the day Vince bought WCW was the day mainstream wrestling killed itself basically and it's something we're just going to have to accept. Until some other Billionaire wrestling fan fancies a crack at the business I honestly can't see how the business can change. I'd like to see Jerry Jones get into the wrestling business.
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ICBM
King Koopa
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Post by ICBM on Dec 18, 2014 22:05:14 GMT -5
Man, I've been in these forums since it was like eazyboards or whatever and this is seriously the exact opposite of a thread about the same guys. Almost ten yrs ago I was one of three people who said those guys were pushed and we got flamed and called trolls etc. Times have changed. Thank you. All of you wcw defenders. It's a merry Christmas afterall Is it OK if we still flame you and call you a troll? Its Christmas time. Knock yourself out mark.
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ICBM
King Koopa
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Post by ICBM on Dec 18, 2014 22:24:00 GMT -5
Its Christmas time. Knock yourself out mark. My name's not Mark The jokes write themselves.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 18, 2014 22:24:28 GMT -5
A bit more contemporary, but the 18 month plus run of Miz and Morison in hindsight protected them a lot of the time. They won almost all their feuds, frequently insulted their opponents with the babyfaces not getting much to hit them back with, were consistently featured, and even in losses against main event talent (DX for example) they still looked pretty solid. They were honestly one of the most well booked tag teams of the brand split era, with only really Jerishow and the first couple months of the WGTT coming close.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 18, 2014 23:28:55 GMT -5
WCW was interesting at that point.
Raven, Jericho, Benoit weren't treated badly but were obviously being held down by politics and the old guard.
By the time they had jumped ship people were more than tired of the same old people always in the main event in WCW. The nWo had been done to death. People were very sick of watching the same people week after week. In addition to that the main event matches with the old guard were becoming quite bad.
Fans were begging for Jericho, Benoit, Eddie and Raven to get main event spots and the upper management refused time and time again.
While I think they weren't treated horribly they definitely weren't getting very solid pushes during their run.
The WWF presented a much better environment and platform for those guys and for the most part I'd say they did much better in WWF than they ever did in WCW with the exception of Raven who Vince never wanted.
Ironically I find WWE making the same mistakes WCW made back then giving wrestlers significant pushes when the fans want them to (Cesaro)
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 19, 2014 5:10:42 GMT -5
Did DDP have much pull? I'm not questioning you btw, I think I'm just generally a bit unaware of his career as he was someone I never really clicked with. DDP was a friend of Bischoff, so he could always have a word with him about things. Thing is, the WCW roster had so many main eventers, that there was just a lot to get through even without politics. The old guard still had 3-5 years in them, hell, Sting was going until very recently. The WWF had a much smaller roster so it was easier to move up, especially since the Radicals jumped when Austin was out for a year and Mankind was retiring. WWF had about 3 main eventers, so they needed bodies, whereas WCW were almost in double figures with headliners even at the end. In hindsight, the fact that they jumped also helped them out. If they'd stayed, they may have moved up when Scott Steiner/Booker T did, but they'd have been at the top of a sinking ship, the buyout would have happened, and they'd just be more random names in the Alliance. Them jumping made them a big deal and gave them a headstart with Vince.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 9:16:30 GMT -5
WCW was interesting at that point. Raven, Jericho, Benoit weren't treated badly but were obviously being held down by politics and the old guard. By the time they had jumped ship people were more than tired of the same old people always in the main event in WCW. The nWo had been done to death. People were very sick of watching the same people week after week. In addition to that the main event matches with the old guard were becoming quite bad. Fans were begging for Jericho, Benoit, Eddie and Raven to get main event spots and the upper management refused time and time again. While I think they weren't treated horribly they definitely weren't getting very solid pushes during their run. The WWF presented a much better environment and platform for those guys and for the most part I'd say they did much better in WWF than they ever did in WCW with the exception of Raven who Vince never wanted. Ironically I find WWE making the same mistakes WCW made back then giving wrestlers significant pushes when the fans want them to (Cesaro) Who was begging for those guys to get main event spots? The IWC? Do you really believe that main events with Benoit and Jericho would have pulled the same house numbers as main events with Hogan? No, of course not. Hogan and the nWo were still a significant draw at that time. I understand people getting tired of it, because I was tired of it. Would it have been refreshing to see some more different faces at that time? Of course. Does that mean it would have been the smart thing to do? Of course not, because a bunch of Internet fans clamoring for their favorite guy does not necessarily translate into box office success. The reason Hulk Hogan stayed on top is because he was their biggest box office draw by far. Unless you were living underground during the entire decade of the 80's and first half of the 90's, you knew Hulk Hogan. The name 'Hulk Hogan' drew. Benoit, Jericho, Raven and all those guys were wrestling guys who couldn't draw a dime outside of the wrestling fan base. The platform that those guys had to get over with the public and be stars is largely due to Hulk Hogan getting WCW over and creating the second wrestling boom. The reason those guys rose to the top quicker in WWE was because WCW had a more top heavy roster. WWE was trying to create their headline stars while WCW had all of the headline stars. There's no doubt whatsoever that many of those guys would have become headliners for WCW within just a few years, but at the time that they were talking about the "glass ceiling", they were still being built for that position. Do you really think that Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero or any of those guys would have risen to the top of WWE as quickly as they did had they not already gotten over with American audiences and become stars in WCW? Let's not pretend that they only became what they were because of Vince's brilliance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 20:14:56 GMT -5
JBL wasn't his first singles push, they tried to get the APA Bradshaw character over as a singles star a few times. Always failing until they completely changed the persona.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 19, 2014 20:18:20 GMT -5
JBL wasn't his first singles push, they tried to get the APA Bradshaw character over as a single star a few times. Always failing until they completely changed the persona. I actually liked Texas Hardcore Champion Bradshaw.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 16:39:09 GMT -5
Paul Orndorff had a heckuva run from 1984-87.
He was brought in and pushed with Roddy Piper as his advisor/manager, to which he won a lot of matches. Was considered a top contender to Tito Santana's I-C title...until Greg Valentine broke Santana's leg and took the belt first. Piper & Orndorff main-evented WrestleMania and had the infamous falling-out. Bobby Heenan put a $50,000 bounty on his head (why don't they do this anymore?) and Paul feuded with the Heenan Family. Turned on Hogan infamously and they feuded for quite a long while.
(They remember the feud with Hogan, maybe the bounty, but not-so-much the feud with Piper or his earlier work. Three years being treated as a huge deal is something.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 17:08:00 GMT -5
WCW was interesting at that point. Raven, Jericho, Benoit weren't treated badly but were obviously being held down by politics and the old guard. By the time they had jumped ship people were more than tired of the same old people always in the main event in WCW. The nWo had been done to death. People were very sick of watching the same people week after week. In addition to that the main event matches with the old guard were becoming quite bad. Fans were begging for Jericho, Benoit, Eddie and Raven to get main event spots and the upper management refused time and time again. While I think they weren't treated horribly they definitely weren't getting very solid pushes during their run. The WWF presented a much better environment and platform for those guys and for the most part I'd say they did much better in WWF than they ever did in WCW with the exception of Raven who Vince never wanted. Ironically I find WWE making the same mistakes WCW made back then giving wrestlers significant pushes when the fans want them to (Cesaro) Who was begging for those guys to get main event spots? The IWC? Do you really believe that main events with Benoit and Jericho would have pulled the same house numbers as main events with Hogan? No, of course not. Hogan and the nWo were still a significant draw at that time. I understand people getting tired of it, because I was tired of it. Would it have been refreshing to see some more different faces at that time? Of course. Does that mean it would have been the smart thing to do? Of course not, because a bunch of Internet fans clamoring for their favorite guy does not necessarily translate into box office success. The reason Hulk Hogan stayed on top is because he was their biggest box office draw by far. Unless you were living underground during the entire decade of the 80's and first half of the 90's, you knew Hulk Hogan. The name 'Hulk Hogan' drew. Benoit, Jericho, Raven and all those guys were wrestling guys who couldn't draw a dime outside of the wrestling fan base. The platform that those guys had to get over with the public and be stars is largely due to Hulk Hogan getting WCW over and creating the second wrestling boom. The reason those guys rose to the top quicker in WWE was because WCW had a more top heavy roster. WWE was trying to create their headline stars while WCW had all of the headline stars. There's no doubt whatsoever that many of those guys would have become headliners for WCW within just a few years, but at the time that they were talking about the "glass ceiling", they were still being built for that position. Do you really think that Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero or any of those guys would have risen to the top of WWE as quickly as they did had they not already gotten over with American audiences and become stars in WCW? Let's not pretend that they only became what they were because of Vince's brilliance. This discussion really brought to my mind Billy Kidman. I agree with you that Jericho and those guys were great but to just plug them into the main event would not pay off the way that people would want to believe. Though I think they could have gotten there if WCW worked at it. Makes you wonder though that if none of those guys were main event worthy, what got into them to make such a big deal out of Billy Kidman of all people? Not that Kidman was bad, but considering the old guard was full of the old, musclebound, charismatic types Kidman was incredibly out of place feuding with the Millionaires Club (oh God the Millionaires Club I hadn't thought of them in ages). I think people look back now and wonder what the midcard guys were so upset about are now saying this at a time where it would be an absolute dream if the midcard were being mishandled the way they were back then. The glass ceiling was still there, there were only certain limits select guys could get to but that didn't mean they were completely shackled as performers the way they are now. Raven had some really cool angles in WCW despite the fact that all he'd ever be doing in WCW was having cool storylines in the midcard.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 17:23:59 GMT -5
Raven knew he wasn't going to be a main-event player in WCW when he signed. Long as he had his Flock and his own angles to work on, he was content to being in the middle.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 20, 2014 18:14:28 GMT -5
Paul Orndorff had a heckuva run from 1984-87. He was brought in and pushed with Roddy Piper as his advisor/manager, to which he won a lot of matches. Was considered a top contender to Tito Santana's I-C title...until Greg Valentine broke Santana's leg and took the belt first. Piper & Orndorff main-evented WrestleMania and had the infamous falling-out. Bobby Heenan put a $50,000 bounty on his head (why don't they do this anymore?) and Paul feuded with the Heenan Family. Turned on Hogan infamously and they feuded for quite a long while. (They remember the feud with Hogan, maybe the bounty, but not-so-much the feud with Piper or his earlier work. Three years being treated as a huge deal is something.) I know people who still absolutely insist that Paul Orndorff died in 1987 right after the Hogan feud ended from taking steroids.
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dav
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Post by dav on Dec 20, 2014 19:39:07 GMT -5
CM Punk's push while he was in ECW seems to be overlooked considering he was given the rub of being with the originals and a run with the title before winning Money In The Bank. Guy always seemed to be featured quite heavily in some fashion.
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 20, 2014 23:02:24 GMT -5
Dusty Rhodes in the wwf in 89-91. He was arguably one of the top 5 babyfaces in the company at the time, and was matched up against Bossman (who was still a top heel by the time the feud began) and Savage (former WWF champion) for the majority of his run, and was relatively succesful against them. Even the dibiase feud had some good heat to it (and featured dustin rhodes blading, something you rarely saw at the time). However, people still cant stop talking about the polka dots or sapphire and how he was being "humiliated" by the wwf.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on Dec 22, 2014 0:51:23 GMT -5
Did DDP have much pull? I'm not questioning you btw, I think I'm just generally a bit unaware of his career as he was someone I never really clicked with. DDP was a friend of Bischoff, so he could always have a word with him about things. Thing is, the WCW roster had so many main eventers, that there was just a lot to get through even without politics. The old guard still had 3-5 years in them, hell, Sting was going until very recently. The WWF had a much smaller roster so it was easier to move up, especially since the Radicals jumped when Austin was out for a year and Mankind was retiring. WWF had about 3 main eventers, so they needed bodies, whereas WCW were almost in double figures with headliners even at the end. In hindsight, the fact that they jumped also helped them out. If they'd stayed, they may have moved up when Scott Steiner/Booker T did, but they'd have been at the top of a sinking ship, the buyout would have happened, and they'd just be more random names in the Alliance. Them jumping made them a big deal and gave them a headstart with Vince. I agree with this wholeheartedly. WCW was ran more as a business than a promotion. They bring over guys like Hogan, Savage, Luger, Hall, Nash, and Bret and they want to protect the investment (well, maybe not as much with Hart) so to speak. So add in Flair being a mainstay, Sting having a huge hot streak right in the middle of their run in WCW (Y2J, Eddy, etc), the Giant still being around, DDP organically moving up the card, Goldberg skyrocketing. It was just too crowded. Someone like Eddy Guerrero was great. He really was. He could play a sleazeball heel, his matches in WCW were off the charts. But how many people would push him over DDP or Sting or Bret or Nash or Hogan or Goldberg? DDP and Goldberg had way more support than Benoit or Guerrero or Malenko or Saturn. Nash, people forget, was over as all hell in 97/98. Sting was their man. Hogan was Hogan. Bret was the hottest name in wrestling. The time when these guys were supposed to move up the card was when it was probably the most stacked upper card in professional wrestling history. And Benoit STILL got there. And Jericho was on the cusp a few times. Someone brought up JBL too. It took JBL 8 years to work up to the main event in WWE. Jericho/Malenko/Guerrero were there for 5 years each. Saturn and Raven were there 3 years each? I can't remember. They all did pretty well for themselves, financially and booking wise. Malenko was booked 1,000x stronger in WCW. Saturn was probably booked stronger in WCW. Benoit was well on his way to becoming what he became in WWE. Jericho and Guerrero found more success in WWE. Jericho almost immediately. Which is awesome for them, great dudes. But they didn't get short-changed in WCW at all IMO. Jericho is the one guy who you could make an argument for, but I really didn't have a problem with the way they presented him. He was capable of more, but you could say that about hundreds of guys throughout wrestling history. The fact is he was in a really, really deep promotion that still gave him time to shine on the mic and in the ring.
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