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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 20, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -5
Even your cited example with the Undertaker though could've went wrong even with Taker being the right performer had they not booked it correctly/played it straight.
Even the absolute best guys have to have material to work with; so yeah there's shared responsibility, but creative/booking has to give these guys a CHANCE to thrive first.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 20, 2014 12:04:16 GMT -5
Imagine if an office worked like WWE creative, you'd have their friends working on high end computers, given all the top clients even if they're not that good, while less favored guys would be using pen and paper with some people just sat there, being given nothing to work with and little do and if they try to bring their own supplies and bring in work for the company, they'd find their things taken from them and the new clients given to those more favored by management. They will eventually be fired because they're doing nothing when it's not their fault.
Talents have tried to get over, they've even spent their own money to do so and received no help from creative, no support for their attempts to reach the brass ring while people who creative have handpicked have failed but get 60-70 attempts to try and make them a draw. You can't turn around after spending a decade slapping people down and wonder why people no longer try, you just can't.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 20, 2014 12:07:21 GMT -5
The problem isn't necessarily the writers. There've been some collosally bad ideas that have otten out, but we've also had stories of writers (and wrestlers) comin up with ideas only to have them taken and applied to someone else by the upper brass. "Blame Creative" is a great way to take the blame off of where it really belongs, the McMahons.
The writers are most likely good enough to come up with something for everyone, they're used to writing it afterall and booking a wrestling story isn't exactly a complex thing. These are very simple morality plays. But they can't come up with something for someone if bosses dont' want them to, they can't force McMahon to use guys and if Vince really said "I want something for everyone on the roster" they'd come up with it. But it doesn't seem like WWE does, they want somethin for 8-9 guys and don't care what happens to everyone else.
I don't think you can blame the "Hollywood writers" when they are entirely beholden to the ever changing whims of an out-of-touch geriatric and a man who is far more interested in reminding everyone how awesome he is than in grooming people to take over when the cash cow is finally ground into hamburger.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 12:13:26 GMT -5
I've gone from blaming creative to blaming Vince. I don't believe that what we see is the unfiltered vision of 26 writers, 26 writers with mostly Hollywood experience where all they know is writing stories that have a beginning, middle and end. This cycle of beginnings, intermittent middles, and fizzle outs are not the work of trained writers more than it reeks of an indecisive, contempt-ridden old man who kiboshes anything at the slightest hint of failure.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 20, 2014 12:14:11 GMT -5
Because wrestling is not like the old days any more. Or at least, WWE isn't.
In the territory days, you created your gimmick and you tried to get bookings using your gimmick. WWE sees a guy with talent and gives them a gimmick. Then if that doesn't work, they fire him for not making the gimmick work.
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Post by 06vwgti on Dec 20, 2014 12:15:30 GMT -5
The problem isn't necessarily the writers. There've been some collosally bad ideas that have otten out, but we've also had stories of writers (and wrestlers) comin up with ideas only to have them taken and applied to someone else by the upper brass. "Blame Creative" is a great way to take the blame off of where it really belongs, the McMahons. The writers are most likely good enough to come up with something for everyone, they're used to writing it afterall and booking a wrestling story isn't exactly a complex thing. These are very simple morality plays. But they can't come up with something for someone if bosses dont' want them to, they can't force McMahon to use guys and if Vince really said "I want something for everyone on the roster" they'd come up with it. But it doesn't seem like WWE does, they want somethin for 8-9 guys and don't care what happens to everyone else. I don't think you can blame the "Hollywood writers" when they are entirely beholden to the ever changing whims of an out-of-touch geriatric and a man who is far more interested in reminding everyone how awesome he is than in grooming people to take over when the cash show is finally ground into hamburger. It seems from the interviews of former wwe writers, they have good ideas and some are fans of the product, but it does seem like it probably is the mcmahons and kevin dunn changing things on a whim or never following through or holding everything one back.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 20, 2014 13:07:28 GMT -5
The WWE is trapped in a really stupid paradox, where it's "the wrestlers' own fault" if they can't get over, but the show is more about the WWE itself than it is about individual wrestlers being popular or not. So I hugely resist the OP's point, because it's what gets used to perpetuate a system where the individual talent is replacable and gets blamed for their own replacability. The "getting over" concept just needs to go.
Also, people are hilariously all over the fundamental attribution error with this stuff. I remember back when the Wyatts first debuted, people were falling all over themselves to credit Bray with coming up with a great character! (it was assigned to him) and writing such great promos! (he doesn't write most of them). Now that the character has been booked to oblivion, he just doesn't have "it" and he was ALWAYS terrible in the ring (despite having awesome matches for like ten PPVs in a row, but see that doesn't count because something something)!
BUT. Creative gets blamed too much, too. The bizarre idea that Raw would magically somehow be better if the wrestlers developed all their own characters and wrote their own material (and the weird, nostalgia-infused thing that if we had old-school "bookers" instead of writers, it'd be better too) is utterly stupid. Let the writers write; let the actors act. And that's the damn problem: Vince won't let the writers do their thing. And, it has to be said, fans won't let the writers to their thing either, because they think (reasonably) that if their favorite performers aren't featured in the spots they want, they'll be seen as "not getting over" and could get culled in the next spring cleaning. The whole stupid WWE culture needs to change.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5
I will say though there is probably some blame to go to wrestlers. I do wonder if the wrestlers are coming up with any ideas for long term feuds. You never really hear a lot of stories of guys with full on ideas for their characters outside of little things. Like recently stuff we know of is Drew Galloway being able to get the Three Man Band to do something with Tool, which is a cool idea and they should have been allowed to do it, but then what? Or there was Maxine coming up with a storyline to seduce Teddy Long and all of a sudden be GM, but then what? Or CM Punk wanting to be a part of the Mania main event simply to check it off a list. A lot of the stuff we see get shut down are very short, kind of self serving ideas with no real depth to it.
When you contrast that to guys like Foley with his later feuds against Edge, Orton, ECW. Or Jericho/Michaels where it's two guys coming together and really fleshing something out that helps more than themselves. Foley had great feuds and if you read his book you can see that he had to push and push and push to let it happen even remotely how he wanted it to. I wonder how hands on Ambrose/Wyatt are being with their underwhelming feud? I have to wonder if the roster would be better off if they were to actually pair up with other guys and come up with feuds or storyline ideas that benefit more than themselves, but maybe they're doing that. I wonder how much big picture thinking the guys are doing.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 20, 2014 13:27:08 GMT -5
Zack Ryder didn't need WWE creative.
And got pissed on for it.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Dec 20, 2014 13:30:04 GMT -5
It always boils down to this simple fact
"Vince HAS to go", he's analogue in a digital age, he's about as useful as a marzipan dildo
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 20, 2014 13:35:06 GMT -5
Because wrestling is not like the old days any more. Or at least, WWE isn't. In the territory days, you created your gimmick and you tried to get bookings using your gimmick. WWE sees a guy with talent and gives them a gimmick. Then if that doesn't work, they fire him for not making the gimmick work. Right: WWE is very used to having its cake and eating it too when it comes to many business practices (e.g. treating the wrestlers like employees, until it means having to actually care more for them and spend more money to do it), and part of that is this weird place they're in where they can't decide if it's still the 80s or not with regards to writing/formatting/booking a show.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Dec 20, 2014 13:40:29 GMT -5
Because Vince freaking Russo could at least do his job and come up with gimmicks and angles for guys. Did a lot suck? Yes. This is a guy that was bored by Ron Simmons and Bradshaw but still came up with the Acolytes to give them a spot. Today's creative can't even manage that.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Dec 20, 2014 15:01:31 GMT -5
We blame Creative because, for ages, a legit excuse used to fire wrestlers was "Creative has nothing for you". Professional wrestling is the only business I have ever seen that, when someone can't do their job properly, they're not replaced with someone who can, and someone else is fired instead. It's not that they can't do their job properly. Sometimes, you just run out of ideas for a character/actor. Hence why actors leave tv shows, and characters get written off of tv shows. If you never got rid of a wrestler because "it's your job to keep coming up with stuff for them to do" we'd never cycle new wrestlers in and old wrestlers out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 15:09:15 GMT -5
Creative as exists in WWE is inherently useless. The last thing you need for great pro wrestling is 26 writers cobbling together lifeless material that athletes are then held to recite by the letter. That's the heart of it right there. Creative gets blamed so much because creative is f***ing massive and everything is so micromanaged that the wrestlers have so much less leeway and responsibility to get themselves over. And now the guys who get over are either amazing in the ring (because creative can't script your match to death) or are pseudothespians who can breath life into terrible material.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 20, 2014 15:14:05 GMT -5
Goddamn it Brie Bella, it's your fault your heel turn doesn't make sense!
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Post by Wolfman Rose on Dec 20, 2014 15:41:02 GMT -5
Zack Ryder didn't need WWE creative. And got pissed on for it. Zack Ryder is also a paper thin, one trick pony. Just while we're assigning blame.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 20, 2014 15:41:50 GMT -5
RE: "Creative has nothing for you"
That is an outright lie and numerous wrestlers and creative have talked about it. The issue is simply the balding, want to be alpha male owner not wanting anyone but his chosen few getting significant TV time. He has no patience, no memory and a severe case of adhd on top of a warped view of what society is into preventing guys and gals from gaining any traction. This is the same guy that when challenged about still being touch with people, said he was because he could still out work people in the f***ing gym.
So blaming creative is wrong. Blame Vincent Kennedy McMahon and realize nothing is changing until he's dead or incapacitated.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 20, 2014 15:43:45 GMT -5
Zack Ryder didn't need WWE creative. And got pissed on for it. Zack Ryder is also a paper thin, one trick pony. Just while we're assigning blame. Except he isn't. Ryder has largely dropped the more cartoonish aspects of his gimmick and has spent the last two years experimenting with updating his look
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 16:05:40 GMT -5
A point made on the opening post about the Undertaker does not compute though. The Wyatt Family got 200% into the character and while superficially treated as serious, they rarely achieved or succeeded in anything. Stardust and Cody generally get totally into every character used and no real progression. Mizdow is totally into it but will he get to even the level he was already at 18 months ago?
These guys are doing their jobs to the fullest of their abilities at present. They may also be human beings who do not want to act like a dick to get ahead and thus won't be a CM Punk backstage. You shouldn't have to sell your personality and soul to succeed when you have the talent to cover it already.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 20, 2014 16:13:01 GMT -5
We blame Creative because, for ages, a legit excuse used to fire wrestlers was "Creative has nothing for you". Professional wrestling is the only business I have ever seen that, when someone can't do their job properly, they're not replaced with someone who can, and someone else is fired instead. It's not that they can't do their job properly. Sometimes, you just run out of ideas for a character/actor. Hence why actors leave tv shows, and characters get written off of tv shows. If you never got rid of a wrestler because "it's your job to keep coming up with stuff for them to do" we'd never cycle new wrestlers in and old wrestlers out. You can't equate pro wrestling with regular TV writing; outside of a show like SNL, the vast majority of fictional programming is written, acted, and shot well in advance of airtime, and for most shows you're not worried about which one of your characters drives the most ticket or merchandise sales. Totally different ballgame, so it's an apples-to-oranges comparison. Your job when you act as a creative figure in pro wrestling is to do whatever you can to get people over so that they make you, themselves, and the company the most money possible. If you just throw your hands up and say "We've got nothing for you", you've failed, full stop. You either failed by not writing a solid story/character/feud, or you failed by hiring somebody who couldn't hack it in the first place (the writer or the wrestler, or both), etc.
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