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Post by angryfan on Dec 20, 2014 19:23:37 GMT -5
Twenty years ago you could say, "You're just not cutting it out there, kid" and let someone go. It was possible because much of what happened in front of the crowd was ad libbed and depended upon the wrestlers reacting to what happened around them. Not getting enough heat? Improvise and try a different approach? Promo faltering? Come up with something off the top of your head, and react to THEM.
Now? Let's be frank, it's so micromanaged, even the guys who "write their own stuff" have to "clear it with creative and get their input". You want to try a spot in the match? Better know ahead of time that it's ok not just with the guy you're working, but with everybody in the locker room and everyone on creative. Gimmick not woring? Well just keep reading the lines, kid, because it's what we've got for you.
Let's look at Mr. Brass Ring. Cena, so the common story goes, was doing his rapper deal backstage, while being Captain Generic Tights every night. Steph noticed and said, "Wow, I like that, do that out there". It caught on. Now what if he just went out there and did it, got over, but creative still had him penciled in as just "Ruthless Aggression" John Cena?
He wouldn't be on the top of the card, I promise you that.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 20, 2014 20:41:00 GMT -5
Can we just have a standard you can't compare the past to present cover all thread. Seriously, as has been mentioned there was NO creative previously. That's why wrestlers blamed other wrestlers and promoters. Those guys determined you're future. Ric Flair became the nature boy from Buddy Rogers not from a writer. And he was the Nature Boy no matter where he went. He honed and became the character and tweaked it to fit whatever angle the promoter wanted. I mean one day Husky Harris went away and a while later Bray Wyatt appeared you can point to the exact dates those things happened. You can't point to the date Terry Bollea became Hulk Hogan. He developed his character organically and within his own abilites. He added bits to his character and refined it until it became everyone's perfect image. He wasn't really an American hero at the start, even though his first title win was against an evil foreigner he wasn't waving the flag or coming out to Real American.
I mean you could say wrestlers bitched about Howard Finkel more then the internet back in the day and you wouldn't be wrong in the statement just the implications.
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Post by Andy Martin on Dec 20, 2014 22:15:48 GMT -5
RE: "Creative has nothing for you" That is an outright lie and numerous wrestlers and creative have talked about it. The issue is simply the balding, want to be alpha male owner not wanting anyone but his chosen few getting significant TV time. He has no patience, no memory and a severe case of adhd on top of a warped view of what society is into preventing guys and gals from gaining any traction. This is the same guy that when challenged about still being touch with people, said he was because he could still out work people in the f***ing gym. So blaming creative is wrong. Blame Vincent Kennedy McMahon and realize nothing is changing until he's dead or incapacitated. And even then, nothing is likely to change.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 21, 2014 5:51:30 GMT -5
RE: "Creative has nothing for you" That is an outright lie and numerous wrestlers and creative have talked about it. The issue is simply the balding, want to be alpha male owner not wanting anyone but his chosen few getting significant TV time. He has no patience, no memory and a severe case of adhd on top of a warped view of what society is into preventing guys and gals from gaining any traction. This is the same guy that when challenged about still being touch with people, said he was because he could still out work people in the f***ing gym. So blaming creative is wrong. Blame Vincent Kennedy McMahon and realize nothing is changing until he's dead or incapacitated. And even then, nothing is likely to change. Depends on who takes over, if the approach to NXT was rolled out across the whole company, we may see big changes. As for other peoples' point on "creative has nothing for you", this can be a good reason... if they've given the guy lots to do in the past. "We've given you 5 different stories, it hasn't worked out, we can't think of anything else for you" that's a genuine reason, telling that to someone you've never seriously done anything with in the first place is a cop out.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Dec 21, 2014 12:30:17 GMT -5
Your employer can only develop you so much before you need to change yourself or start with a new company.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 21, 2014 12:46:01 GMT -5
Your employer can only develop you so much before you need to change yourself or start with a new company. Except some of these guys aren't being developed at all. You can't really blame the talent for lack of progress when they work in a company where no one gets showcased outside of a handful of chosen guys.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 21, 2014 12:53:42 GMT -5
f*** creative coming straight from the underground A young wrestler got it bad because I'm on Smackdown.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Dec 21, 2014 13:07:35 GMT -5
Your employer can only develop you so much before you need to change yourself or start with a new company. Except some of these guys aren't being developed at all. You can't really blame the talent for lack of progress when they work in a company where no one gets showcased outside of a handful of chosen guys. Creative has much bigger fish to fry than getting Ryder and Riley airtime. Even if creative was firing on all cylinders, there are more important things to do than give lower mid carders that you like more than others a 'chance' to showcase their talents. A chance turns into calling for a push and that turns into wanting more, and those guys just don't have the talent. Ryder was exposed even before the Kane storyline and it's clear he has a ceiling, there is no easier way to say it, he's just not that good. Yikes. Playing Devil's advocate, it would sure suck to be on creative and have to answer to Vince's changing opinions on things every 13 minutes. Plus you'd have to stick to a strict narrative WWE places on you, with strict guidelines that cannot be crossed. How do any of us know that those creative people are sharp as can be, pitching ideas that we've had for years on characters, only to be shut down by Vince/Hunner/Dunn/Steph? I think "blame creative' is just as lazy as the image of creative that many of us have. Unless we're IN those meetings seeing what is pitched, we don't know whose fault it is that the show is as bad as it is. They go off of a 20+ writer system. I'm willing to bet there are so many writers because one of them is bound to have an idea that fits in with what Vince wants deep down and it's easier to blame what doesn't work on the poor guy who only wants to keep his job. It's wacky, but it holds just as much ground as the "creative are lazy" mindset. I get it, the show sucks. It does. People get angry about it. But we don't have an answer just yet. I think the recent Charlotte situation gives more clues than any about what's wrong with WWE right now, and people are pointing fingers at more than just the Hollywood writing staff we love to hate.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Dec 21, 2014 13:11:15 GMT -5
Your employer can only develop you so much before you need to change yourself or start with a new company. Yes but comparing say Jinder Mahal's 3 years of TV to Hardcore Holly's 15 years on WWE TV is a little different.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 21, 2014 13:14:10 GMT -5
Your employer can only develop you so much before you need to change yourself or start with a new company. Yes but comparing say Jinder Mahal's 3 years of TV to Hardcore Holly's 15 years on WWE TV is a little different. I bet Holly asked "How do ya like me now!?" and WWE responded, "we don't" and that's why he got fired.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Dec 21, 2014 13:18:17 GMT -5
Vince is Dory from "Finding Nemo"
Vince: I like this guy Dolph Ziggler, Let's push him. Go write a story for him and show me it *5 Mins later* Writer: I've got that Dolph Ziggler story you asked for Vince: Who the hell is Dolph Ziggler?, forget it just give it Cena *Writer crosses out Ziggler's name and writes in Cena's*
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Tony Schiavontay
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Dec 21, 2014 13:30:13 GMT -5
f*** creative coming straight from the underground A young wrestler got it bad because I'm on Smackdown. And not the main show so Vince thinks He has the authority to lower my priority f*** that shit cause I ain't the one For some punk motherf***er with some roids in his guns To be putting over and thrown in low-card jail I'll never go toe-to-toe in a hell in a cell
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 21, 2014 14:46:18 GMT -5
Except some of these guys aren't being developed at all. You can't really blame the talent for lack of progress when they work in a company where no one gets showcased outside of a handful of chosen guys. Creative has much bigger fish to fry than getting Ryder and Riley airtime. Even if creative was firing on all cylinders, there are more important things to do than give lower mid carders that you like more than others a 'chance' to showcase their talents. A chance turns into calling for a push and that turns into wanting more, and those guys just don't have the talent. Ryder was exposed even before the Kane storyline and it's clear he has a ceiling, there is no easier way to say it, he's just not that good. Yikes. Playing Devil's advocate, it would sure suck to be on creative and have to answer to Vince's changing opinions on things every 13 minutes. Plus you'd have to stick to a strict narrative WWE places on you, with strict guidelines that cannot be crossed. How do any of us know that those creative people are sharp as can be, pitching ideas that we've had for years on characters, only to be shut down by Vince/Hunner/Dunn/Steph? I think "blame creative' is just as lazy as the image of creative that many of us have. Unless we're IN those meetings seeing what is pitched, we don't know whose fault it is that the show is as bad as it is. They go off of a 20+ writer system. I'm willing to bet there are so many writers because one of them is bound to have an idea that fits in with what Vince wants deep down and it's easier to blame what doesn't work on the poor guy who only wants to keep his job. It's wacky, but it holds just as much ground as the "creative are lazy" mindset. I get it, the show sucks. It does. People get angry about it. But we don't have an answer just yet. I think the recent Charlotte situation gives more clues than any about what's wrong with WWE right now, and people are pointing fingers at more than just the Hollywood writing staff we love to hate. There are 20+ writers and one of them can't be assed to simply pencil Riley or Ryder into a five minute match? If a chance turns into calling or a push, and turns into the fans demanding more, that means the wrestler is getting over. And said wrestler will either run with the opportunity he's been given or he'll shit the bed. And sometimes as much as I hate it, a wrestler needs to shit the bed so that they can learn from it and get better, which Riley actually did (there was a time when he was THE reason to watch Superstars) only to not be rewarded for his hard work. As for Ryder, yeah, he isn't that good, but come on. He sold merch, kids love him, and he knows how to pop a crowd. The problem is more that anyone who gets over to any degree will get shoved into the upper tier regardless of whether they're "ready" or not because WWE is so desperate to find that new Austin/Rock level megastar and they made the mistaken assumption that Ryder's internet popularity meant he was that guy. He's a solid lower mid card hand. Guys like Riley and Ryder do have talent. It's not main event level talent, but they do have talent. WWE should've just let them be content being over as f*** in the mid card than trying to make them more than they were. Maybe they'd still be relevant that way. Yes, it probably does suck to be on the Creatige team. Vince is insane, Triple H is an ego maniac, Steph is her father's daughter, and Dunn is a busybody who needs to learn his place. But there's no reason why Creative can't make the Cena feud that Vince wants, write Triple H's 30-minute self-blowjob promo and still have room to write something for others. I don't give a shit about a writer who "just wants to keep his job" the same way that you don't give a shit about "some lowly lower carder that nobody likes 'except me'". If any of the wrestlers put in the bare minimum because they "just want to keep their jobs" you'd be all over them. You like to say "nobody deserves to be handed shit", well that should apply to the writers as well. Most of those guys show more personality and charisma in YouTube/App videos than they ever are allowed to do on WWE programming. Hell, Riley shows more personality sucking donkey dick at commentary than he ever got to show as a full time wrestler. I hate the way WWE runs everything. I don't like how "only the main event matters". And hell, I don't even like the "generic, cookie cutter wrestling style that indy fans want to escape from" that you go on about and I wish that WWE's homegrown talent were trained differently. I just want things to change. The wrestlers are an investment. If The Creative Team aren't making the fans care about as many wrestlers as possible so that Joe Blow will buy a t-shirt for his seven year old son, then they aren't doing their jobs right.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Dec 21, 2014 15:25:48 GMT -5
I'd be happy with a random 6/8 man Tag match on RAW with some of the lesser used people
Say: - Zack Ryder - Darren Young - R-Truth - Adam Rose
vs
- Justin Gabriel - Heath Slater - Curtis Axel - Titus O'Neil
Sure it's filler but at least some of the lesser used guys get a RAW appearance plus it's not like WWE does much else with it's 3hr Runtime.
Hell even throw an NXT match on RAW every week
1st week - Diva match 2nd week - Tag Match (Proper NXT tag Teams, not 2 midcard guys thrown together) 3rd Week - Midcard 4th Week - 1 of the 3 (Random)
- Cut the damn 20 - 30 minute promos opening the show - Cut down the recaps, We're not goldfish
Hell make the 1st hour a "Last week on WWE" show, show what happened on ALL WWE programming (RAW/SD/ME/NXT) and the next 2hrs RAW.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 17:01:56 GMT -5
Fans aren't going to magically start caring about a bunch of guys when you have them wrestle each other. You have to have them rub elbows with the guys who are near or at the top of the card. The trick is to not completely bury them like they did when Ryder became Cena's little buddy.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 21, 2014 20:14:45 GMT -5
f*** creative coming straight from the underground A young wrestler got it bad because I'm on Smackdown. And not the main show so Vince thinks He has the authority to lower my priority f*** that shit cause I ain't the one For some punk motherf***er with some roids in his guns To be putting over and thrown in low-card jail I'll never go toe-to-toe in a hell in a cell When I'm jobbed out, I get my drugs out Smoke 'em up and in the hotel it's lights out
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 22, 2014 3:41:48 GMT -5
Fans aren't going to magically start caring about a bunch of guys when you have them wrestle each other. You have to have them rub elbows with the guys who are near or at the top of the card. The trick is to not completely bury them like they did when Ryder became Cena's little buddy. Depends on the people. The Rock and HHH pretty much built themselves up with their feud, the whole WCW Cruiserweight division became a popular draw, never involved the guys at the top, the tag team division was like that for years. You don't need to be in there with the big guys, just on tv, entertaining so people can see it and become attached to you.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Dec 23, 2014 4:06:12 GMT -5
Creative has much bigger fish to fry than getting Ryder and Riley airtime. Even if creative was firing on all cylinders, there are more important things to do than give lower mid carders that you like more than others a 'chance' to showcase their talents. A chance turns into calling for a push and that turns into wanting more, and those guys just don't have the talent. Ryder was exposed even before the Kane storyline and it's clear he has a ceiling, there is no easier way to say it, he's just not that good. Yikes. Playing Devil's advocate, it would sure suck to be on creative and have to answer to Vince's changing opinions on things every 13 minutes. Plus you'd have to stick to a strict narrative WWE places on you, with strict guidelines that cannot be crossed. How do any of us know that those creative people are sharp as can be, pitching ideas that we've had for years on characters, only to be shut down by Vince/Hunner/Dunn/Steph? I think "blame creative' is just as lazy as the image of creative that many of us have. Unless we're IN those meetings seeing what is pitched, we don't know whose fault it is that the show is as bad as it is. They go off of a 20+ writer system. I'm willing to bet there are so many writers because one of them is bound to have an idea that fits in with what Vince wants deep down and it's easier to blame what doesn't work on the poor guy who only wants to keep his job. It's wacky, but it holds just as much ground as the "creative are lazy" mindset. I get it, the show sucks. It does. People get angry about it. But we don't have an answer just yet. I think the recent Charlotte situation gives more clues than any about what's wrong with WWE right now, and people are pointing fingers at more than just the Hollywood writing staff we love to hate. There are 20+ writers and one of them can't be assed to simply pencil Riley or Ryder into a five minute match? If a chance turns into calling or a push, and turns into the fans demanding more, that means the wrestler is getting over. And said wrestler will either run with the opportunity he's been given or he'll shit the bed. And sometimes as much as I hate it, a wrestler needs to shit the bed so that they can learn from it and get better, which Riley actually did (there was a time when he was THE reason to watch Superstars) only to not be rewarded for his hard work. As for Ryder, yeah, he isn't that good, but come on. He sold merch, kids love him, and he knows how to pop a crowd. The problem is more that anyone who gets over to any degree will get shoved into the upper tier regardless of whether they're "ready" or not because WWE is so desperate to find that new Austin/Rock level megastar and they made the mistaken assumption that Ryder's internet popularity meant he was that guy. He's a solid lower mid card hand. Guys like Riley and Ryder do have talent. It's not main event level talent, but they do have talent. WWE should've just let them be content being over as f*** in the mid card than trying to make them more than they were. Maybe they'd still be relevant that way. Yes, it probably does suck to be on the Creatige team. Vince is insane, Triple H is an ego maniac, Steph is her father's daughter, and Dunn is a busybody who needs to learn his place. But there's no reason why Creative can't make the Cena feud that Vince wants, write Triple H's 30-minute self-blowjob promo and still have room to write something for others. I don't give a shit about a writer who "just wants to keep his job" the same way that you don't give a shit about "some lowly lower carder that nobody likes 'except me'". If any of the wrestlers put in the bare minimum because they "just want to keep their jobs" you'd be all over them. You like to say "nobody deserves to be handed shit", well that should apply to the writers as well. Most of those guys show more personality and charisma in YouTube/App videos than they ever are allowed to do on WWE programming. Hell, Riley shows more personality sucking donkey dick at commentary than he ever got to show as a full time wrestler. I hate the way WWE runs everything. I don't like how "only the main event matters". And hell, I don't even like the "generic, cookie cutter wrestling style that indy fans want to escape from" that you go on about and I wish that WWE's homegrown talent were trained differently. I just want things to change. The wrestlers are an investment. If The Creative Team aren't making the fans care about as many wrestlers as possible so that Joe Blow will buy a t-shirt for his seven year old son, then they aren't doing their jobs right. There are only two ways to solve this problem: 1. Tier the content system more like a farm system our the aggregate system of league play. (Did I say that?) Division A is RAW, B is SD, C is ME, D is Superstars, E is NXT. ALL belts can be defended on PPV or RAW depending. RAW is the home of the WHC. SD for the IC/US. ME for the tag and Divas. Create the "Multimedia" belt our bring back the Light Heavyweight or the a European or the All Asiatic or something for Superstars. Figure guys out from there. 2. As someone else stated, have a rolling schedule so that wrestlers get time off for healing, appearances, and other projects, yet they can stay relevant. If the new regime IS all about rethinking the old ways, this could be a start.
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