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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 6, 2015 23:06:54 GMT -5
^ These say yes.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Feb 6, 2015 23:13:07 GMT -5
If the question is, should WWE have gone with Michaels as champ in 1996? I say yes.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Feb 6, 2015 23:40:28 GMT -5
when it came time to job to Bret, he lost his smile I love when people bring this up. As if an Iron Man match that originally ended in a TIE wasn't enough to make both guys look strong. No, we have to have a best of 3 Wrestlemanias series, where Bret finally puts Shawn over in a ladder match, which is quite possibly one of the shittiest ways to put someone over as legitament especially when the feud BEGINS with a f***ing Iron Man match. As far as the vacating the titles or only putting friends over, that's still laughable considering how awful the roster was during that period. I guess Sid was his friend. I guess Austin was. I guess Michaels should have put over a shittier midcarder than Razor. Did you not look at the f***ing roster at that time?
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 7, 2015 0:23:14 GMT -5
No because he was managed by that douche Jose Lothario. Of course he did............. Freakin' Sweatsock, he ruins everything.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 7, 2015 0:30:01 GMT -5
I think so. Granted, I am not HBK's hugest fan by a margin: Frankly, I think him and Hart aren't particularly interesting to revisit as champions, but I think he was certainly deserving. I just wish we could have seen it in a healthier business(even if some of that was directly his fault) and him clean(obviously, 100% of that is his fault).
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,050
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Post by repomark on Feb 7, 2015 7:14:23 GMT -5
Yes, it was the right choice at the time. It is worth remembering he lost the title match at the previous year's mania and WWE spent the whole year building him to challenge again this time as a face. To be honest I think he was earmarked for the top spot following the ladder match at mania 10.
Kayfabe-wise he won two consecutive Royal Rumbles so it hard to argue, and in terms of in ring ability clearly he had it.
I suppose the question would be if not HBK in 96 then who? There weren't a whole lot of viable choices.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Feb 7, 2015 8:19:53 GMT -5
when it came time to job to Bret, he lost his smile I love when people bring this up. As if an Iron Man match that originally ended in a TIE wasn't enough to make both guys look strong. No, we have to have a best of 3 Wrestlemanias series, where Bret finally puts Shawn over in a ladder match, which is quite possibly one of the shittiest ways to put someone over as legitament especially when the feud BEGINS with a f***ing Iron Man match. As far as the vacating the titles or only putting friends over, that's still laughable considering how awful the roster was during that period. I guess Sid was his friend. I guess Austin was. I guess Michaels should have put over a shittier midcarder than Razor. Did you not look at the f***ing roster at that time? If the WWF wanted him to put someone over, that's his job as champion, he didn't have creative control so he had no business picking and choosing who he loses the title to. If no-one but a select few feuds with him and comes out looking good then he's useless and has absolutely no business being near the top belt as a champion's job is to elevate those he's working with and have the best feud he possibly could. Shawn was supposedly one of the best workers in the world, yet people kept going up against him and coming out looking like crap, people that the WWF saw a lot of potential in, hell, he couldn't even allow himself to put over a guy booked to win and retain a midcard belt that was being built around him that had dedicated the match to his dying sister. Shawn could have made average guys he worked with look like a million bucks because he was that good a worker at the time, but unless their names were Hall, Nash or Eudy, that wasn't going to happen so he had no place at the top of the card. If Vince hasn't had such a huge mancrush on him, he would have been fired the second time he vacated the IC belt and would have gone on to job to Alex Wright in the Hogan era WCW midcard.
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Post by 2 Cold Scorkum on Feb 7, 2015 10:18:07 GMT -5
after matches, he would tease showing his ass to the audience while an 8 year old gyrated in the ring with him and vince is all YES THIS IS OUR GUY.
watching the build to wrestlemania xii for the first time and i'm p. sure vince was/is in love with hbk.
and of course, workrate and all that. he totally deserved it.
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Post by TheSchattenjager on Feb 7, 2015 10:29:25 GMT -5
I love when people bring this up. As if an Iron Man match that originally ended in a TIE wasn't enough to make both guys look strong. No, we have to have a best of 3 Wrestlemanias series, where Bret finally puts Shawn over in a ladder match, which is quite possibly one of the shittiest ways to put someone over as legitament especially when the feud BEGINS with a f***ing Iron Man match. As far as the vacating the titles or only putting friends over, that's still laughable considering how awful the roster was during that period. I guess Sid was his friend. I guess Austin was. I guess Michaels should have put over a shittier midcarder than Razor. Did you not look at the f***ing roster at that time? If the WWF wanted him to put someone over, that's his job as champion, he didn't have creative control so he had no business picking and choosing who he loses the title to. If no-one but a select few feuds with him and comes out looking good then he's useless and has absolutely no business being near the top belt as a champion's job is to elevate those he's working with and have the best feud he possibly could. Shawn was supposedly one of the best workers in the world, yet people kept going up against him and coming out looking like crap, people that the WWF saw a lot of potential in, hell, he couldn't even allow himself to put over a guy booked to win and retain a midcard belt that was being built around him that had dedicated the match to his dying sister. Shawn could have made average guys he worked with look like a million bucks because he was that good a worker at the time, but unless their names were Hall, Nash or Eudy, that wasn't going to happen so he had no place at the top of the card. If Vince hasn't had such a huge mancrush on him, he would have been fired the second time he vacated the IC belt and would have gone on to job to Alex Wright in the Hogan era WCW midcard. I'll defend Shawn on the Bulldog deal, since the point of beating Bulldog at that night, with the situation surrounding it, was to get heel heat, because it WAS a dick move.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Feb 7, 2015 10:33:51 GMT -5
I love both guys and there's no question Shawn was a dick for backing out but I've never really understood why WWF thought Bret "getting his win back" at Mania 13 was a good idea in the first place. Bret putting Shawn over at 12 was logical, old guy puts over new guy, brings him into the main events as champion. Shawn putting Bret just would seem, at best, like a lateral movement and not all that appealing as a repeated main event.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Feb 7, 2015 10:44:02 GMT -5
I'll defend Shawn on the Bulldog deal, since the point of beating Bulldog at that night, with the situation surrounding it, was to get heel heat, because it WAS a dick move. On paper, sound reasoning, however, that PPV was the WWE's first real attempt at running an actual Pay Per View event in the UK (as in not shown for free on Sky) in some time and sent the audience home irate, it also screwed up their attempts to build the European title as a legit midcard belt to be defended at future European events at a time that they desperately needed that audience to stay afloat. All it did was give Shawn an ego boost and a belt he would never defend in a match the American audience wouldn't see for years so the loss would have in no way harmed him, but him winning alienated fans at a time WCW was beating the snot out of them and expanding into major European markets with Nitro being free to air on TNT and on DSF over in Germany.
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Post by TheSchattenjager on Feb 7, 2015 11:00:41 GMT -5
I'll defend Shawn on the Bulldog deal, since the point of beating Bulldog at that night, with the situation surrounding it, was to get heel heat, because it WAS a dick move. On paper, sound reasoning, however, that PPV was the WWE's first real attempt at running an actual Pay Per View event in the UK (as in not shown for free on Sky) in some time and sent the audience home irate, it also screwed up their attempts to build the European title as a legit midcard belt to be defended at future European events at a time that they desperately needed that audience to stay afloat. All it did was give Shawn an ego boost and a belt he would never defend in a match the American audience wouldn't see for years so the loss would have in no way harmed him, but him winning alienated fans at a time WCW was beating the snot out of them and expanding into major European markets with Nitro being free to air on TNT and on DSF over in Germany. A fair point.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Feb 7, 2015 12:27:34 GMT -5
If the WWF wanted him to put someone over, that's his job as champion, he didn't have creative control so he had no business picking and choosing who he loses the title to. If no-one but a select few feuds with him and comes out looking good then he's useless and has absolutely no business being near the top belt as a champion's job is to elevate those he's working with and have the best feud he possibly could. Shawn was supposedly one of the best workers in the world, yet people kept going up against him and coming out looking like crap, people that the WWF saw a lot of potential in, hell, he couldn't even allow himself to put over a guy booked to win and retain a midcard belt that was being built around him that had dedicated the match to his dying sister. Shawn could have made average guys he worked with look like a million bucks because he was that good a worker at the time, but unless their names were Hall, Nash or Eudy, that wasn't going to happen so he had no place at the top of the card. If Vince hasn't had such a huge mancrush on him, he would have been fired the second time he vacated the IC belt and would have gone on to job to Alex Wright in the Hogan era WCW midcard. I think any top guy should lose to a few select guys, that's what makes them a top guy. That's common sense to me especially since the guys who did beat him ended up looking better than they would have if Shawn did jobs left and right. This was Vince's direction, not Shawn's. Shawn did nothing different than Hogan did or Cena. Shawn did make guys look like a million bucks, but not being selective with your losses makes you Foley or Kane, where the result isn't shocking or retain value over time. As champion, Shawn did elevate Goldust, Mankind and Vader. Yes, he put over Vader at Summerslam by allowing Vader to get a count out and a DQ on him. But I guess since he didn't pin him, that he was buried. I hate this mentality because it's selective thinking that the only was guys can be put over is by losing to them. That is false.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 12:49:52 GMT -5
Personally, I've never liked the guy or seen the appeal. That being said, he's pretty much one of the most over wrestlers of all time, so yes he deserved to be champ.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,045
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Post by dav on Feb 7, 2015 13:04:06 GMT -5
Not really. Guy wasn't even the most over person in the company at times. Sid got cheered over him on a number of occasions. Granted, there were few other options, but if they'd done other stuff differently (Give Nash much better booking and utilised their talent), they could have. Sid wasn't in WWF when Shawn won his first title. You mean World title? Sid was in a few months afterwards and got chanted over pretty much everyone at International Incident.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Feb 7, 2015 13:12:02 GMT -5
I think any top guy should lose to a few select guys, that's what makes them a top guy. That's common sense to me especially since the guys who did beat him ended up looking better than they would have if Shawn did jobs left and right. This was Vince's direction, not Shawn's. Shawn did nothing different than Hogan did or Cena. Shawn did make guys look like a million bucks, but not being selective with your losses makes you Foley or Kane, where the result isn't shocking or retain value over time. As champion, Shawn did elevate Goldust, Mankind and Vader. Yes, he put over Vader at Summerslam by allowing Vader to get a count out and a DQ on him. But I guess since he didn't pin him, that he was buried. I hate this mentality because it's selective thinking that the only was guys can be put over is by losing to them. That is false. Shawn didn't put over guys on his way to the top, he vacated title after title when asked to put people over so failed to do his job. When a guy had the IC belt, it was a stepping stone to the main title, when he lost it up the card he went after making someone else look like a star which Shawn fought to avoid every step of the way. No matter what he or his fans think, if a guy refuses to do what you ask with a midcard belt, he has absolutely no business being anywhere near the top one. Shawn most certainly did not elevate Vader, Vader went from working with Sting, Cactus Jack, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan with no problems, yet when he went up against Shawn he became a fat sack of crap who had to deal with a guy half his size throwing a hissyfit in the middle of the ring after deciding he didn't want to put him over despite all the expense the WWF had gone to to get him. Letting someone get a countout or DQ victory is not putting them over, if it was Lanny Poffo would have been a title contender in the WWF rather than a jobber to the stars because he got a countout win over a far bigger name than Shawn Michaels. There's always some excuse for Shawn because of his workrate. If Lex Luger (another case that proves that a countout victory was not putting them over) were the one being so problematic in the 90s WWF, I doubt people would be so forgiving.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Feb 7, 2015 13:25:59 GMT -5
Shawn didn't put over guys on his way to the top, he vacated title after title when asked to put people over so failed to do his job. When a guy had the IC belt, it was a stepping stone to the main title, when he lost it up the card he went after making someone else look like a star which Shawn fought to avoid every step of the way. No matter what he or his fans think, if a guy refuses to do what you ask with a midcard belt, he has absolutely no business being anywhere near the top one. Shawn most certainly did not elevate Vader, Vader went from working with Sting, Cactus Jack, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan with no problem, yet when he went up against Shawn he became a fat sack of crap who had to deal with a guy half his size throwing a hissyfit in the middle of the ring after deciding he didn't want to put him over despite all the expense the WWF had gone to to get him. Letting someone get a countout or DQ victory is not putting them over, if it was Lanny Poffo would have been a title contender in the WWF rather than a jobber to the stars because he got a countout win over a far bigger name than Shawn Muchaels. Vader was his own worst enemy. He wasn't very over when he joined WWE, and his subsequent feuds after Shawn had little to offer. But I guess Shawn SABOTAGED him after working a pretty good program with him. This idea that if Vader didn't win the title made him look like a chump is ridiculous. If you can't recover from one program, then you don't belong there. I like Vader, but I'm not some revisionist that believes he could have been given more opportunities since WWF did give him several and they were mostly lackluster due to him. As far as vacating the title, Shawn only truly vacated titles 3 times. Once was for storyline purposes, once was due to a real life attack to where 9 guys assaulted him and damn near tore his eyelid off, and the other was a knee injury that people still question. The other times the belt was taken off him was due to suspension, but I guess Shawn masterminded those as well. Let's also keep in mind this was when the company was vacate crazy. As far as the knee thing...I really don't care, because if he did indeed fabricate it (I doubt it), then the only person who missed out was Shawn. No one should look back on WM 13 with malice since Bret had a far better program with Austin.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Feb 7, 2015 13:39:38 GMT -5
There's always some excuse for Shawn because of his workrate. If Lex Luger (another case that proves that a countout victory was not putting them over) were the one being so problematic in the 90s WWF, I doubt people would be so forgiving. I'm not making excuses because of his workrate, I'm explaining why from a booking aspect that it makes no sense to have a guy lose to a shitload of guys during a period when they were low on talent and making guys like Bret, Razor or Shawn look expendable for the sake of "putting everyone over" is silly. Luger was a good comparison though, but for the wrong reason. Vader, much like Luger wasn't that over with the company. No amount of wins or dominating is going to change that. If anything, it makes the company look stupid for constantly trying to shove this shit down the fan's throats. I'm no apologist in terms of Shawn's first or second title reign (he shouldn't have won it the second time so soon), but the match quality was superb and Shawn went out of his way to make his opponent look good on every occasion. Vader came into the company as damaged goods from WCW, where Flair felt the need to overshadow him throughout his entire feud with Hogan. Putting him in the title hunt at such an early stage was probably not the best idea because the fans didn't really buy into it. The company made the right move by having Sid be the one to take the title off Shawn because the fans bought it. Putting the title on Vader was a big risk at the time, and can't blame Shawn for setting up a program where it's going to look bad no matter what in some peoples' eyes. And just to add one more point going back to your comment about how Shawn never lost on his way to the top. Well, he actually did, but had he not, then so what? Doesn't that make sense to not lose too often when you're climbing the ladder of success? From a kayfabe standpoint I think it would. It's like if I got promoted at my job after I proved to be an incompetent worker. And really, Shawn was IC champion for a good majority of this time and having such a good run where you aren't jobbing left and right really elevated the title. Hell, I almost wish Bad News Barrett had a little stroke and used it to go on a rampage while barely losing as IC chamion. Give me the mid 90's midcard booking any day of the week over this shit they put out nowadays.
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