The entire concept of "Faces" and "Heels" needs to go.

[Bub (BLM)]

I know there are purists who will balk at the idea, but hear me out. WWE already has two characters who have completely transcended face/heel status, and it's a proven success. Who are the two biggest draws in WWE? John Cena, and Brock Lesnar. Neither one is pigeonholed into an area where they can/can't say something because it won't get the "appropriate" response from the audience. Rather, WWE knows what works for the characters, and they go with it regardless of desired reaction. It makes them much more believable and compelling as characters, and it just feels natural.

With Cena in particular, it's great. Yeah, so much of his schtick is annoying to a lot of us, but you can hate him for it and that's okay. They even encourage it. Rather than trying to change anything about him, they just let half the crowd hate him and half the crowd love him and it makes him the center of everyone's attention regardless. His matches always have red-hot crowds because people care. Whether they want to see him prevail or get his ass kicked, they care. This is the kind of thing I want to see applied to everyone on the roster.

Take Bad News Barrett for example. Just last week he did an interview where he said that he was told to stop doing his "I'm afraid I've got some Bad News" promos because the audience liked it. That's one of the most moronic things I've ever heard. So he's a "bad guy" but people cheer for him. So what? At least they care. So now rather than being this smarmy asshole that people go nuts for, he's this stone-faced asshole that no one cares about. Apathy kills the product, and they're breeding apathy by doing stuff like that.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that I want an entire roster full of guys playing characters best suited to them as performers, with no thought going into whether or not they're supposed to be cheered or booed. It doesn't matter. If Barrett was still doing the "Bad News" promos and getting cheered, it hurts nothing because he's wrestling Daniel freaking Bryan. It would just ADD to the energy going into the match because the crowd loves both guys rather than just one. In the world of real sports, you have all kinds of characters. Muhammad Ali was a straight-up "heel" by wrestling standards, but he had a huge following because he was good. Wrestling should be allowed the same freedom of choice.

[Sicho100]

How am I going to become emotionally invested in a match between two guys that I enjoy? If I'm fine with whoever wins, why would I get worked up over the match?

The problem WWE has now isn't that they stick to the face/heel dynamic. The problem is that they DON'T. Stone Cold has mentioned that when he went to a show last year, he taught Cesaro some standard heel moves (particularly a reverse mule kick), which Cesaro said that they weren't allowed to do. When you don't let heels be heels, not only do they not get over, but the faces don't either, because there is no struggle. Basically, modern WWE heels already are the pseudo-faces you want them to be. And the story turns to shit because of it.

Just take Daniel Bryan. The reason he got over as big as he did, especially after Summerslam 2013, is BECAUSE of the face/heel dynamic. He went up against what are pretty much the only true heels in the company in the Authority. And because they had a great babyface going up against strong heels, they were able to create a struggle, where the heels keep f***ing over the babyface, before the babyface finally triumphs in the end. That is Storytelling 101. And that's why they need faces and heels.

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2015 16:41:06 GMT -5 Sicho100 said:

How am I going to become emotionally invested in a match between two guys that I enjoy? If I'm fine with whoever wins, why would I get worked up over the match?

The problem WWE has now isn't that they stick to the face/heel dynamic. The problem is that they DON'T. Stone Cold has mentioned that when he went to a show last year, he taught Cesaro some standard heel moves (particularly a reverse mule kick), which Cesaro said that they weren't allowed to do. When you don't let heels be heels, not only do they not get over, but the faces don't either, because there is no struggle. Basically, modern WWE heels already are the pseudo-faces you want them to be. And the story turns to shit because of it.

Just take Daniel Bryan. The reason he got over as big as he did, especially after Summerslam 2013, is BECAUSE of the face/heel dynamic. He went up against what are pretty much the only true heels in the company in the Authority. And because they had a great babyface going up against strong heels, they were able to create a struggle, where the heels keep f***ing over the babyface, before the babyface finally triumphs in the end. That is Storytelling 101. And that's why they need faces and heels.

It's quite rare when one would legitimately like 2 guys the exact same amount in the same scenario.

As for Bryan, he's exhibit A. He was a heel who became the most over guy on the whole roster, while "babyface" Sheamus got booed out of the building against him. That face/heel Authority stuff didn't get him more over, his wrestling ability and YES got him where he is.

[FinalGwen]

The concepts of face and heel will be around as long as the concept of good and evil in fiction persist. WWE just need to be smarter about which rules they apply to their faces and heels, and realise that some people will always side with the villain. You don't see Marvel making Loki mute because people like Tom Hiddleston's speeches too much.

[madness50]

Heels and babyfaces are needed in wrestling. In a movie, the good guy will usually come out on top in the end, but sometimes the bad guy wins. Booking 101 says that the face should win the final battle over the heel. In WWE, the heels win too often and never get their comeuppance in return. Some characters however can be an anti-hero, prime example being Brock Lesnar. In the end, the need for faces and heels means more to the viewers, especially the young fans.

[Hit Girl]

The concepts of faces and heels needs to return.

[Nickybojelais]

It's an interesting subject. I definitely agree that it is stupid to stop heels doing certain things because the crowds is responding to them.

I dread to think how people like Edge & Christian would be treated today. There is no way they would be allowed to continue to act like they did, the streamers and kazoos would be banned, the 5 seconds poses and the benefit of flash photography would go, their backstage skits would be minimised. Basically everything which made them entertaining would be stripped away.

But guess what? They were still the biggest heel tag team of that era despite, or more accurately because of their entertaining characters. It is so short sighted to tell Barrett to stop his Bad News gimmick because people enjoy it, or Cesaro to stop swinging.

Ultimately though, I thing the Heel/Face dynamic is a vital aspect of wrestling and should remain. Far to often I re-visit the Attitude era shows and am immediately uninvested in the matches because of the "shades of grey" mentality which engulfed the product during that period.

[Deleted]

Seems like they need to figure out how to properly execute a denouement.

[Kevin Hamilton]

It'll never go completely, at its core rasslin is a morality play.

[TGM]

A match should have a heel and a face but I think a wrestler as completely one alignment is outdated and should go.

[gr1990]

I don't want WWE to become like the 'wrestling for wrestling's sake' indy promotions where everyone's a babyface cos they're a 'good worker' and no one has any distinguishing character traits. The very fabric of wrestling requires heroes and villains, the question WWE's Creative team need to ask themselves is how to write a character that today's audience will root for and a character they will despise.

They managed it with Daniel Bryan and the Authority, and they did so by drawing heavily on behind-the-scenes reality, or at least the fans' perception of it, whilst not making a complete Russo's WCW-style mockery of kayfabe. I thought it was the start of something, especially with the 'Reality Era' buzzword they were firing out left and right at the time, but then a few months later Bryan was being dragged to hell by the Demon Kane.

Also, if a heel is getting cheered or a babyface is getting booed, run with it, adapt. Noticing when a character is failing and altering it has led to some of their most popular characters of all time, and even recently has worked wonders in NXT with the likes of Bo Dallas. Sticking your fingers in your ears and hoping the undesirable reactions go away makes everybody look stupid.

[thecrusherwi]

I am coming around to the idea that pure faces and heels should become obsolete. It's clear from the reaction to a scumbag like Seth Rollins stealing the WWE title in the biggest moment of the year that a large section of the audience is not interested in watching a morality play of good triumphing over evil. It's a fake sport involving wacky characters; some of which you like, some of which you don't.

I've been watching a lot of old WCW lately. There's was never a morality play. The evil side, like The Horseman and NWO, almost always won in the end and at it's best it was still great and still made you want to watch.

If you just put interesting characters together, whether face or heel, people will care. For example, to most of the country, this years Super Bowl was a head to head matchup of 2 Brock Lesnar level heels, but everyone picked a side or cheered for them to destroy each other. And it was the most watched television program in American TV history. Just find interesting characters, give them strengths and flaws and let the people decide who they love and let it play out. That's the formula sports has used forever. Why can't that work in a fixed sport?

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Agreed with the "heels aren't allowed to be heels" point. Thankfully, guys like Seth Rollins are starting to change that but heels aren't dastardly anymore. They are bad guys because...they are. Never mind that top faces do similar shit and we are supposed to cheer them for it.

For example, Dolph Ziggler was the lamest f***ing heel I've ever seen. "I'm super cocky and claim I'm the best but I'm actually super athletic to the point where I probably am one of the best in the company and almost never actually cheat in my matches. When I win, it's practically clean." Well...ok. What's to boo? In a world where the 2nd biggest face in the company outright called himself "The Best in The World", that's not gonna cut it.

Rake some eyes. Kick some balls. FIGHT DIRTY! Do something to let me know you don't have the same morals as your opponent and, as such, I should boo you.

Don't blame the seasonings, blame the cook for having no idea how to cook your meal.

[Capt Lunatic]

Do they still have faces and heels? The past year or so EVERYONE has been pretty unlikable.

[Andrew is Good]

So yeah, I hate it, and I guess I'm a purist or whatever. Fact is, the concept of a heel and a babyface isn't just based in wrestling. It's based in fiction in general. There are also people in real life who you could classify as a heel or a babyface.

I get some of the issues. WWE and wrestling in general has problems with presenting heels and babyfaces and a lot of it is just bad character development. Like, I remember Bray Wyatt said he was evil, and I hated that. Hitler didn't think he was evil, why should Bray Wyatt? I think it was Michael Hayes who said it, but probably lots of people have said it. The best heels believe they're the babyface. The best examples in recent memory are Chris Jericho in the late 00s, CM Punk in the Straight Edge Society, and right now, Kevin Owens in NXT. Kevin Owens I think is also a great example of shades of grey, and that's another problem. Vince Russo is the king of bad shades of grey and he's just uncreative.

The problem with Cena is, I think it's a bad Vince call and how out of touch Vince is. Turning Cena heel, yeah, it would have lowered merch sales. But you know what? After a year and a half of him being heel, then potentially turning back babyface, he could have gotten the chance to get a fresh coat of paint and not ruin any potential Wrestlemania moments with him being booed out of the building.

And that's another thing. The whole concept of "turning" is problem too, because there has to be good reason to do so. Again, with Cena, he had a very good reason to turn. But if you just turn a guy willy nilly, like say, Big Show, people just stop caring about him in general. Big Show seems like a decent guy, and I thought he did his best work when he worked with Daniel Bryan a few years back. He seems like a nice enough guy, so let him be that. But if you keep turning him face, heel, face, heel, nobody cares anymore.

And also, if you're going to be a heel, be a heel. I guess I just hear so many veterans and old timers complain about cool heels, because the whole point of being a heel is to be hated. Seth Rollins isn't trying to be cool, especially against Brock Lesnar, and they have incredible chemistry, as the monster babyface and the weaselly heel. But with Bad News Barrett, saying that he's got some bad news, that's cool. We should cheer him. Now granted, you give him a good storyline reason for turning babyface, fine, but it you need heels and he has to be a heel, then no, I've got some bad news, Wade Barrett needs to be a damn heel and not try to be cool. I'm actually very much on WWE's side for that choice. And I don't think Barrett was trying to be cool, but he can't just be the cool guy or else he's f***ing over the babyfaces he wrestles.

One issue as well is, the little things with heels and babyfaces I'm not well versed in because I'm not a wrestler or in wrestling or whatever, but in general, in fiction, in life, there are heels and babyfaces, they're just not called as such.

[MichaelMartini]

I always hear Cena turning heel would hurt merch sales but I seem to recall an assload of nWo shirts being sold.

[Hit Girl]

Every other form of scripted entertainment knows how to use heroes and villains, so why can't WWE?

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having some heels that people like, but I do think the babyfaces, particularly at the top, should be well accepted by the fanbase. People will still buy merch for heels and support that they like, but if they don't believe in the babyface, what does that character really have? For example, when I was watching Kevin Owens vs. Sami Zayn at Rival, I remarked that it didn't really matter that some of the fans really loved Kevin Owens, because even those fans still believed in Sami Zayn as well.

John Cena seems to be the exception that proves the rule, and even then, it's because he has carved out a portion of the fanbase that really does believe in him and will buy his merch by the truckloads, while his haters will watch shows to see him get taken down by their cult hero.

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2015 21:20:30 GMT -5 Hit Girl said:

Every other form of scripted entertainment knows how to use heroes and villains, so why can't WWE?

Most don't have a live audience trying to change the narrative weekly nevermind those who just do the opposite of WWE regardless.

[BrianZane]

It's basic storytelling. There has to be a good and an evil. We create that distinction all the time in our lives, from the shows and movies we watch, to what we see in the news, to the people we work with, to the sports we follow. We need to have people to root for and against in everything, especially wrestling. How else are we supposed to care?