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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Apr 20, 2015 13:17:14 GMT -5
Welp, Dany sure pulled a Stannis there. Seriously, what the Hell was that? "I'll teach you to respect a man's right to a fair trial by having you publicly executed without trial". What did she THINK was going to happen?! To be fair, there was no need for a trial since the guy did admit to doing it. It's like a guilty plea means no damn trial. Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for.
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Bobeddy
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Post by Bobeddy on Apr 20, 2015 13:24:40 GMT -5
I find myself really annoyed by Lady Martell, she has no case or right to revenge and will obviously f*** everything up. Her case for revenge is that the Lannisters took the one she loved so now she will hurt them. In the eyes of gods and men Oberyn lost fairly and his death wasn't murder but if there's one thing that's been established about the Dornish it's that they're fiery, passionate in every sense of the word. She's taking revenge because she can and she wants too. Though I'm justifying the character's motivation, please be aware that I much prefer book Ellaria's reaction. There's a sorrowful dignity to her and she has one of my favourite passages in the series about the futility of revenge.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Apr 20, 2015 13:26:54 GMT -5
I get the feeling that Daenerys haters will have a ball this season since it looks like things are crumbling around her this season.
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Post by Cela on Apr 20, 2015 13:32:48 GMT -5
To be fair, there was no need for a trial since the guy did admit to doing it. It's like a guilty plea means no damn trial. Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for. I don't think the masses of Mereen would have cared if there was a trial. Besides, the guy confessed, and showed no signs of harm, and confessed. She needed to satisfy the nobility and Sons of the Harpy and show that the law must be followed, doesn't help that the freed slaves never developed any maturity level. She made the right move as a leader, but the wrong move as a messiah.
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Post by Cela on Apr 20, 2015 13:34:47 GMT -5
I get the feeling that Daenerys haters will have a ball this season since it looks like things are crumbling around her this season. Our demands are simple: A) She gets on a damn boat to Westeros and joins the plot. or B) She develops character beyond being a Mary Sue. There appears to be potential for B.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Apr 20, 2015 14:23:57 GMT -5
Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for. I don't think the masses of Mereen would have cared if there was a trial. Besides, the guy confessed, and showed no signs of harm, and confessed. She needed to satisfy the nobility and Sons of the Harpy and show that the law must be followed, doesn't help that the freed slaves never developed any maturity level. She made the right move as a leader, but the wrong move as a messiah. Why wouldn't they care? It would show that he was treated fairly, as an actual human being and while it still wouldn't be a popular move, it would be less likely to start freaking riots had they shown them that yeah, there is no denying he was guilty. All they saw is her come out, kill one of them and flee like a coward when things got rough because shock of all shocks, they didn't like that! Why would they believe her spiel about being a fair ruler and a liberator if she acts pretty much the same as the slave masters? And again, the fact is if you want people to trust you, don't immediately start chopping off their heads! Throw him in jail or something. Hell, at the very least don't go out of your way to antagonize them. I get the feeling that Daenerys haters will have a ball this season since it looks like things are crumbling around her this season. Our demands are simple: A) She gets on a damn boat to Westeros and joins the plot. or B) She develops character beyond being a Mary Sue. There appears to be potential for B. Honestly, I never felt she was a Mary Sue and her whole backstory is her trying to get back to Westeros (preferably with an army so she doesn't get immediately super-killed) so I don't have a problem with her not joining in on the war yet (especially since it's been obvious from the start that they're saving that for the big finale). So neither of those things bother me. In fact, I rather like her "wanting to do right but her naiveté and lack of experience occasionally make her lose control" theme, which is why I wish she didn't start doing stuff that's less "naive mistake" and more "just plain dumb".
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Apr 20, 2015 15:02:56 GMT -5
Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for. I don't think the masses of Mereen would have cared if there was a trial. Besides, the guy confessed, and showed no signs of harm, and confessed. She needed to satisfy the nobility and Sons of the Harpy and show that the law must be followed, doesn't help that the freed slaves never developed any maturity level. She made the right move as a leader, but the wrong move as a messiah. There in lies the problem though. While I don't think it was wrong for Daenerys to punish him, making a public display of his execution was shortsighted. She's trying to "send a message" to a group of people who have been, up to this point, systematically abused and now have their former masters hiring assassins to kill them. It's the equivalent of burning a leech off but not bothering to use ointment to soothe the burns. I'd say keep him imprisoned and give the Nobles back their Fight Pits as an olive branch.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Apr 20, 2015 15:17:40 GMT -5
It feels weird coming into the GoT thread and defending Dany because in both books and show she is the most annoying f***ing character imaginable but I find it hard to see what she did wrong in this episode. She wanted (after some persuading from Ser Barristan, he's just amazing) to give the Son of Harpy a fair trial which everyone deserves. She then gave his killer a chance to plead his case (tantamount to a trial and probably the same arrangement the Son of Harpy would have been given) he admitted guilt and showed no remorse until his execution. Now granted doing it publicly and inciting a city-wide riot was absolutely moronic but even then you could make the argument that as queen she was setting an example to show that she will not tolerate murder or anything of the sort regardless of who it is from, whether it be former slave or former master which - in the end, as much as it pains me to say it - is an admirable and necessary trait in a great leader.
EDIT: Also, I knew I wasn't going to love the Dorne plot as much as I did without Arianne but holy shit I didn't realise I was going to enjoy it this much less. I just don't feel the characters the way I did in the books. The changes they made in this episode were wholly unnecessary at times.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Apr 20, 2015 15:35:43 GMT -5
Dany is like Robert, both know how to wage war and listen to their advisors so that they can win but neither have the ability to rule or govern after they have conquered.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Apr 20, 2015 15:47:55 GMT -5
She's killing someone without trial to show that killing without trial is unforgivable. Do you see the problem here? And yeah, as I was saying, the fact that she did that publicly is what makes it go from questionable to just plain stupid. "Let me prove what a fair ruler I am by decapitating one of you for, as far as you know, no reason! What could possibly go wrong?". It's the kind of shit that makes your head end up on the pitchfork of an angry peasant.
And no, him admitting to doing it is not a trial (in fact, I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out it wasn't him and he was covering for someone else).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 15:48:30 GMT -5
To be fair, there was no need for a trial since the guy did admit to doing it. It's like a guilty plea means no damn trial. Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for. She was screwed either way. Holding a public execution was the only way to show decisiveness, but also a guaranteed way to get the people angry. Dany is like Robert, both know how to wage war and listen to their advisors so that they can win but neither have the ability to rule or govern after they have conquered. This is true, yet they sit on opposite ends of the spectrum. Robert was a pigheaded oaf who didn't care a lot about much besides his vices, which caught up to him in his later years. He did what he felt was right, even when pretty much anyone else could see it was a bad idea. Daenerys on the other hand has no spine and is far too easily influenced by others. She's even afraid of her own dragons. Of course, she's also very young and that can certainly change. Robert, on the other hand, was up the creek.
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Bobeddy
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Bobeddy on Apr 20, 2015 16:26:40 GMT -5
Also, I knew I wasn't going to love the Dorne plot as much as I did without Arianne but holy shit I didn't realise I was going to enjoy it this much less. I just don't feel the characters the way I did in the books. The changes they made in this episode were wholly unnecessary at times. I must say, even with his very brief screen time, I did like how they portrayed Doran. Reserved but absolutely not taking any crap from Ellaria. Though I can't help but think that they could have had her make a snipe about his gout to explain why he's in a wheelchair.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Apr 20, 2015 16:34:56 GMT -5
Also, I knew I wasn't going to love the Dorne plot as much as I did without Arianne but holy shit I didn't realise I was going to enjoy it this much less. I just don't feel the characters the way I did in the books. The changes they made in this episode were wholly unnecessary at times. I must say, even with his very brief screen time, I did like how they portrayed Doran. Reserved but absolutely not taking any crap from Ellaria. Though I can't help but think that they could have had her make a snipe about his gout to explain why he's in a wheelchair. That's true. Doran did come across very well much like in the books, but Ellaria and the impending Sand Snakes feels very hollow to me.
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Fundertaker
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Post by Fundertaker on Apr 20, 2015 16:36:38 GMT -5
I have one simple suggestion to make to Denaerys that would make this whole ordeal better: don't allow people who clearly want to kill your prisoners near your prisoners.
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Post by Cela on Apr 20, 2015 16:41:02 GMT -5
She's killing someone without trial to show that killing without trial is unforgivable. Do you see the problem here? And yeah, as I was saying, the fact that she did that publicly is what makes it go from questionable to just plain stupid. "Let me prove what a fair ruler I am by decapitating one of you for, as far as you know, no reason! What could possibly go wrong?". It's the kind of shit that makes your head end up on the pitchfork of an angry peasant. And no, him admitting to doing it is not a trial (in fact, I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out it wasn't him and he was covering for someone else). Yes, it is a trial, as he fanatically admitted it to judge Dany, who was deemed by her people as the arbiter of disputes. Also, do all trials require a full amphitheater? It's not like the crowd would be respecting Dany's gavel. The guy did bad, the guy admitted it, the guy was proud he did it to free Dany's hands, the guy did not have to be tortured to admit it. The execution was justified and necessary as a leader.
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Post by Cela on Apr 20, 2015 17:14:18 GMT -5
Wait a minute... Varys wants Dany to rule, but he had Jorah spy on her and sent assassins to kill her?
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Apr 20, 2015 17:19:56 GMT -5
I wish Russo was writing this series.
Oberyn (reading the script): "Wait, you're supposed to beat me by crushing my head?" Mountain: "Yep, that's the finish they gave us!"
Then, Oberyn beats The Mountain and runs off having gone off script in a shoot, brother!
Also, castration match between Ramsay and Theon, and Dany gets spanked by Daario every week
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Apr 20, 2015 17:23:15 GMT -5
Hum, pretty sure you still get a trial even if you plead guilty (to determine the most appropriate sentence). I'm also fairly certain a guilty plea allows you to avoid the death penalty. Of course, this is kind of a moot point considering the people of Meereen. She just parades the guy in front of them and tells them "I'm gonna kill this guy you love but it's okay because he totally pled guilty of murder; you can trust me, you guys, no need to check" then ignores them when they ask for mercy. When you want to convince people that you're on their side, don't kill one of their guys in front of them without even presenting them with any kind of evidence that they even did the thing you're killing them for. She was screwed either way. Holding a public execution was the only way to show decisiveness, but also a guaranteed way to get the people angry. Dany is like Robert, both know how to wage war and listen to their advisors so that they can win but neither have the ability to rule or govern after they have conquered. This is true, yet they sit on opposite ends of the spectrum. Robert was a pigheaded oaf who didn't care a lot about much besides his vices, which caught up to him in his later years. He did what he felt was right, even when pretty much anyone else could see it was a bad idea. Daenerys on the other hand has no spine and is far too easily influenced by others. She's even afraid of her own dragons. Of course, she's also very young and that can certainly change. Robert, on the other hand, was up the creek. Robert was hinted at being smarter and observant than he let on and could play the Game of Thrones well if he tried. He just stopped caring shortly after the rebellion with Lyanna's death and having to marry The Lannisters, he himself said he would rather give up the throne and become a sellsword but knew that if he did Joffrey would be a disaster as king and Cersei would be right in his ear. And he turned out to be right.
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Johnny B. Decent
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Apr 20, 2015 17:28:15 GMT -5
Wait a minute... Varys wants Dany to rule, but he had Jorah spy on her and sent assassins to kill her? I presume to keep up appearances in court. Wouldn't do for your Spymaster to do nothing about the Targaryen issue .
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Post by Cela on Apr 20, 2015 17:33:35 GMT -5
Wait a minute... Varys wants Dany to rule, but he had Jorah spy on her and sent assassins to kill her? I presume to keep up appearances in court. Wouldn't do for your Spymaster to do nothing about the Targaryen issue . Except, you know who controls all the information? Varys. "Yes my king, my little birds tell me the Targaryen girl avoided assassination." You know what that doesn't require? Actually sending assassins!
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