Backstage Politics 401 - Putting over the wrong guy

[efarns]

There comes a time in every icon's career when they will need to "pass the torch" to someone. They've used every bit of their star power to go over in every single feud in everyone's memory, but it's finally time to do a job. Conventional wisdom says you put over the next great superstar, but if you do that, how are you going to convince the company to put you back in the top spot? If you give the rub to the right guy, then he's going to be in the main event for the rest of your career and you'll never be "the guy" again. So what do you do? Find someone you can work with -good, but flawed - build them up as big as possible, put them over, and then step aside while they flounder in the spotlight. If you play it right, you'll be pushed back into the top spot to stop the sudden dropoff in business.

So, this is just my little theory, but I was wondering if we could come up with examples that fit this, at least in part. I'm going to go with a kind of old school example that was a little bit before my time, so if someone wants to tell me my take is all wrong, that's fine. Bruno Sammartino: I can't name all the guys in The WWWF, but Billy Graham was a draw anywhere he went. Hulk Hogan was there. Vince Sr. could have brought in anybody in the world to work with Bruno. But of all the guys he could have passed the torch to to, Bruno lost to Larry Zbysko, who went on in the wrestling business to accomplish very little else of note. He had a good and long career, but he was not a headliner, and without this rub, who would Larry Zbysko have been? Bruno passed the torch to a competent, but mostly unremarkable guy (I think they had a history?), ensuring that none of the guys with real star power ever went over on him.

Maybe this is a little confusing, but does my theory make sense. Can you think of other examples that might fit? I can think of a few, but I'd rather hear what everyone else has to say.

[baerrtt]

As over as he was most smarks then, for years afterwards (and even a year after his untimely death) think Hogan cleanly dropping the WWF title to The Warrior was a mistake. There are plently of usenet wrestling conversations on Google from the timeframe of 1990 where most people confidently believed Hellwig would bomb or underperform as champion and even worse put the blame on his character's shortcomings and his mediocre ring work.

Honestly find those comments and they're akin to the negative chatter and opinions that formed around Roman Reigns in the run up to this year's Wrestlemania. Yes Warrior at that point was definitely a star but Hogan's own comments over the years suggests he knew Jim wasn't going to replace him like Vince expected.

[efarns]

. . . when Randy Savage was perfectly suited to take the ball and run with it, but Hogan always, always, always beat Randy.

[Nickybojelais]

Apr 24, 2015 13:26:21 GMT -5 baerrtt said:

As over as he was most smarks then, for years afterwards (and even a year after his untimely death) think Hogan cleanly dropping the WWF title to The Warrior was a mistake. There are plently of usenet wrestling conversations on Google from the timeframe of 1990 where most people confidently believed Hellwig would bomb or underperform as champion and even worse put the blame on his character's shortcomings and his mediocre ring work.

Honestly find those comments and they're akin to the negative chatter and opinions that formed around Roman Reigns in the run up to this year's Wrestlemania. Yes Warrior at that point was definitely a star but Hogan's own comments over the years suggests he knew Jim wasn't going to replace him like Vince expected.

I think the fact that within a year the belt was firmly back around Hogan's waist shows that they knew that Warrior's time on top was less than impressive.

Although I don't think having runs with people Hogan had already disposed of helped Warrior's run as Champion, along with yet another feud with Rick Rude.

I always felt that they had a chance to make Warrior stand out by have him go over Earthquake, whilst building up the story that Quake was the only man that Hogan could never pin. At least then you give the impression that Warrior is not simply a pretender to Hogan's throne.

[WWHHHD]

Who did Sting ever pass the torch to? Just a thought.

I never get the passing of the torch from Hogan to Rock. Austin handed the torch over years ago.

[Amazing Kitsune]

Apr 25, 2015 20:38:59 GMT -5 WWHHHD said:

Who did Sting ever pass the torch to? Just a thought.

Triple H.

[Welfare Willis]

Apr 26, 2015 0:11:23 GMT -5 Amazing Kitsune said:

Apr 25, 2015 20:38:59 GMT -5 WWHHHD said:

Who did Sting ever pass the torch to? Just a thought.

Triple H.

To be fair, he's a young guy and needed the rub.

[Chip Jordan]

Try any occasion John Cena dropped the belt to a guy who never had Vince's full support?

I like to think Cena sent a basket of fruit and a note saying "please return my belt within 30 days" to the likes of Edge, Rob Van Dam, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan.

[Chip Jordan]

How about when Bret Hart took a vacation after WM12? Effectively depriving the company of his name value and drawing power.

Bret put over HBK in the ring then left him to sink at the box office. If Bret had stayed around and wrestled in the semi-main event slot - maybe those HBK headlined shows would have drawn bigger numbers?

[mysterious]

Apr 25, 2015 19:49:01 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

Apr 24, 2015 13:26:21 GMT -5 baerrtt said:

As over as he was most smarks then, for years afterwards (and even a year after his untimely death) think Hogan cleanly dropping the WWF title to The Warrior was a mistake. There are plently of usenet wrestling conversations on Google from the timeframe of 1990 where most people confidently believed Hellwig would bomb or underperform as champion and even worse put the blame on his character's shortcomings and his mediocre ring work.

Honestly find those comments and they're akin to the negative chatter and opinions that formed around Roman Reigns in the run up to this year's Wrestlemania. Yes Warrior at that point was definitely a star but Hogan's own comments over the years suggests he knew Jim wasn't going to replace him like Vince expected.

I think the fact that within a year the belt was firmly back around Hogan's waist shows that they knew that Warrior's time on top was less than impressive.

Although I don't think having runs with people Hogan had already disposed of helped Warrior's run as Champion, along with yet another feud with Rick Rude.

I always felt that they had a chance to make Warrior stand out by have him go over Earthquake, whilst building up the story that Quake was the only man that Hogan could never pin. At least then you give the impression that Warrior is not simply a pretender to Hogan's throne.

I gotta agree with you on this one. It's one thing to build a guy into a champion. It's another thing to build him as a champion. For instance when Hogan beat the Sheik in 1984 for the title, that was building him into the champion. Then facing guys like Bundy Studd Ordorff and Andre was building him as the champion. When Warrior won it he beat the greatest of all time. After that there wasn't a guy on the card that could threaten his position or make him look vulnerable because he beat the guy that beat every one else. He already faced Rude as IC champ so there really wasn't a story line to go with. I still don't think it was a mistake to put the title on him. He was way over with the fans so what else could you have done with him.

[efarns]

Apr 25, 2015 20:38:59 GMT -5 WWHHHD said:

Who did Sting ever pass the torch to? Just a thought.

Good question. One of his last programs in WCW was supposed to give a rub to Vampiro, and he was the wrong guy at the wrong time.

[tms]

Apr 27, 2015 8:54:35 GMT -5 efarns said:

Apr 25, 2015 20:38:59 GMT -5 WWHHHD said:

Who did Sting ever pass the torch to? Just a thought.

Good question. One of his last programs in WCW was supposed to give a rub to Vampiro, and he was the wrong guy at the wrong time.

But he wasn't gay.

[Capt Lunatic]

Apr 26, 2015 16:03:21 GMT -5 Chip Jordan said:

How about when Bret Hart took a vacation after WM12? Effectively depriving the company of his name value and drawing power.

Bret put over HBK in the ring then left him to sink at the box office. If Bret had stayed around and wrestled in the semi-main event slot - maybe those HBK headlined shows would have drawn bigger numbers?

[Clawley Race]

Apr 26, 2015 18:03:50 GMT -5 mysterious said:

Apr 25, 2015 19:49:01 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

I think the fact that within a year the belt was firmly back around Hogan's waist shows that they knew that Warrior's time on top was less than impressive.

Although I don't think having runs with people Hogan had already disposed of helped Warrior's run as Champion, along with yet another feud with Rick Rude.

I always felt that they had a chance to make Warrior stand out by have him go over Earthquake, whilst building up the story that Quake was the only man that Hogan could never pin. At least then you give the impression that Warrior is not simply a pretender to Hogan's throne.

I gotta agree with you on this one. It's one thing to build a guy into a champion. It's another thing to build him as a champion. For instance when Hogan beat the Sheik in 1984 for the title, that was building him into the champion. Then facing guys like Bundy Studd Ordorff and Andre was building him as the champion. When Warrior won it he beat the greatest of all time. After that there wasn't a guy on the card that could threaten his position or make him look vulnerable because he beat the guy that beat every one else. He already faced Rude as IC champ so there really wasn't a story line to go with. I still don't think it was a mistake to put the title on him. He was way over with the fans so what else could you have done with him.

Not to mention the fact that the one monster heel they did build up.....feuded with Hogan of course....

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Stone Cold be counted can't he? In a sense The Rock took the torch from him when he left to heal up and he laid down for The Rock in his last match but by then that wasn't as much of a meaning considering it's two legends fighting. The story that will always get brought up is Lesnar and him refusing to "do the job" because of lack of build. Right or wrong he could of done it but in the end Lesnar was fine. I do think if Austin was healthy he would of layed down for the right guy down the line.

["Mr Wonderdick" Dick Dastardly]

Apr 24, 2015 13:16:39 GMT -5 efarns said:

There comes a time in every icon's career when they will need to "pass the torch" to someone. They've used every bit of their star power to go over in every single feud in everyone's memory, but it's finally time to do a job. Conventional wisdom says you put over the next great superstar, but if you do that, how are you going to convince the company to put you back in the top spot? If you give the rub to the right guy, then he's going to be in the main event for the rest of your career and you'll never be "the guy" again. So what do you do? Find someone you can work with -good, but flawed - build them up as big as possible, put them over, and then step aside while they flounder in the spotlight. If you play it right, you'll be pushed back into the top spot to stop the sudden dropoff in business.

So, this is just my little theory, but I was wondering if we could come up with examples that fit this, at least in part. I'm going to go with a kind of old school example that was a little bit before my time, so if someone wants to tell me my take is all wrong, that's fine. Bruno Sammartino: I can't name all the guys in The WWWF, but Billy Graham was a draw anywhere he went. Hulk Hogan was there. Vince Sr. could have brought in anybody in the world to work with Bruno. But of all the guys he could have passed the torch to to, Bruno lost to Larry Zbysko, who went on in the wrestling business to accomplish very little else of note. He had a good and long career, but he was not a headliner, and without this rub, who would Larry Zbysko have been? Bruno passed the torch to a competent, but mostly unremarkable guy (I think they had a history?), ensuring that none of the guys with real star power ever went over on him.

Maybe this is a little confusing, but does my theory make sense. Can you think of other examples that might fit? I can think of a few, but I'd rather hear what everyone else has to say.

Bruno wanted to work with Larry and help establish him. It wasn't Vince Sr., Bruno was semi-retired at this point.

[efarns]

Apr 28, 2015 19:35:25 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

Stone Cold be counted can't he? In a sense The Rock took the torch from him when he left to heal up and he laid down for The Rock in his last match but by then that wasn't as much of a meaning considering it's two legends fighting. The story that will always get brought up is Lesnar and him refusing to "do the job" because of lack of build. Right or wrong he could of done it but in the end Lesnar was fine. I do think if Austin was healthy he would of layed down for the right guy down the line.

I don't agree with that one. At least, it doesn't fit the category. He didn't refuse to job to Lesnar, only to turn around and put over someone like The Road Dogg or The Godfather.

[A Platypus Rave]

Apr 29, 2015 11:51:53 GMT -5 efarns said:

Apr 28, 2015 19:35:25 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

Stone Cold be counted can't he? In a sense The Rock took the torch from him when he left to heal up and he laid down for The Rock in his last match but by then that wasn't as much of a meaning considering it's two legends fighting. The story that will always get brought up is Lesnar and him refusing to "do the job" because of lack of build. Right or wrong he could of done it but in the end Lesnar was fine. I do think if Austin was healthy he would of layed down for the right guy down the line.

I don't agree with that one. At least, it doesn't fit the category. He didn't refuse to job to Lesnar, only to turn around and put over someone like The Road Dogg or The Godfather.

Yeah, Stone Cold's point of that was a Brock Lesnar vs. Stone Cold match with hype and build is a ppv caliber match that people would pay money for.

Not something that should be given out on Free TV without any kind of story behind it.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Apr 29, 2015 12:28:48 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Apr 29, 2015 11:51:53 GMT -5 efarns said:

I don't agree with that one. At least, it doesn't fit the category. He didn't refuse to job to Lesnar, only to turn around and put over someone like The Road Dogg or The Godfather.

Yeah, Stone Cold's point of that was a Brock Lesnar vs. Stone Cold match with hype and build is a ppv caliber match that people would pay money for.

Not something that should be given out on Free TV without any kind of story behind it.

That's the point I made. I said the Lesnar example is something that could be brought up. My end game was Stone Cold would of put someone over for the next generation but couldn't due to injury.

[domrep]

Apr 26, 2015 18:03:50 GMT -5 mysterious said:

Apr 25, 2015 19:49:01 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

I think the fact that within a year the belt was firmly back around Hogan's waist shows that they knew that Warrior's time on top was less than impressive.

Although I don't think having runs with people Hogan had already disposed of helped Warrior's run as Champion, along with yet another feud with Rick Rude.

I always felt that they had a chance to make Warrior stand out by have him go over Earthquake, whilst building up the story that Quake was the only man that Hogan could never pin. At least then you give the impression that Warrior is not simply a pretender to Hogan's throne.

I gotta agree with you on this one. It's one thing to build a guy into a champion. It's another thing to build him as a champion. For instance when Hogan beat the Sheik in 1984 for the title, that was building him into the champion. Then facing guys like Bundy Studd Ordorff and Andre was building him as the champion. When Warrior won it he beat the greatest of all time. After that there wasn't a guy on the card that could threaten his position or make him look vulnerable because he beat the guy that beat every one else. He already faced Rude as IC champ so there really wasn't a story line to go with. I still don't think it was a mistake to put the title on him. He was way over with the fans so what else could you have done with him.

Warrior is a prime example of a guy who didn't need the belt to justify his place on the card.