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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:06:48 GMT -5
I still like WWE. Not saying it to be anti-IWC or going against the grain. I actually enjoy the product being produced. Do I think it's all good? God no, but I'm not declaring everything shit and wallowing in the misery. The moment I grow to hate a wrestling company, I stop watching and following it completely. Life is too short to sweat the bullshit. Besides, in another 10 years and this current era will be remembered fondly by the next generation of fans and them declaring their current product is terrible. Why? Circle of life. Contrary to popular belief, the Attitude Era was not beloved. Read old message boards and the same criticisms we are saying today are the same ones from then. Yeah, it still using the same format from that era but product wise it was panned. But most posters here were kids under 18 during that time so the hate wasn't strong as those in their 20's or higher. Hell, the Hulkmania era had its critical critics during its heyday and people who weren't even conceived like that. I akin this era in WWE like the New Generation era. The workrate was higher than the previous era though the starpower was lower. For every HBK or Bret Hart, you had Freddie Joe Floyd or T.L Hopper. People wanted Razor or 123 Kid higher on the card but WWF management saw differently. Fans turned against the Hulkster replacement, Lex Luger. Diesel was loved as a heel but turned against when he became the face of the company. High hopes for WWF hiring Cactus Jack (Someone who didn't fit the mold of what WWE usually look for a wrestler) and loving the early Mankind. So many parallels. How many people truly long for or appreciate the New Generation Era, though? It was pretty bad (IMO) and is usually looked back on with disgust save for a few good moments. I think fans are smarter than you give them credit for as far as nostalgia. Yes, some fans are young and will glowingly remember this era as a reminder for their youth, but those old enough to watch the shows for entertainment value will probably look at it the same way they do the New Generation Era (some decent stuff but overall not memorable or good). If you hated 1995 at the time, chances are it won't look better in 2005 just because ten years have passed. The Attitude Era is remembered fondly because it was a time when wrestling was socially acceptable. It doesn't age well because it was a societal fad that died once shock TV became passé, but I don't think it's fair to compare the criticism that era got with this era since the difference is popularity between now and then is night and day. Plus, the fans that hated the Attitude Era generally preferred WCW, at least on the boards I visited at the time, so that probably contributed a bit.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 30, 2015 8:11:40 GMT -5
Oddly enough I have gone back and watched some of those New Generation era PPVs from 1994-96. Several of them are actually quite good. It was just the week to week TV back then that was really horrible and boring. The WWF just had zero pulse of the public back then. They had no idea that society had changed from 1990.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jun 30, 2015 8:13:37 GMT -5
I still like WWE. Not saying it to be anti-IWC or going against the grain. I actually enjoy the product being produced. Do I think it's all good? God no, but I'm not declaring everything shit and wallowing in the misery. The moment I grow to hate a wrestling company, I stop watching and following it completely. Life is too short to sweat the bullshit. Besides, in another 10 years and this current era will be remembered fondly by the next generation of fans and them declaring their current product is terrible. Why? Circle of life. Contrary to popular belief, the Attitude Era was not beloved. Read old message boards and the same criticisms we are saying today are the same ones from then. Yeah, it still using the same format from that era but product wise it was panned. But most posters here were kids under 18 during that time so the hate wasn't strong as those in their 20's or higher. Hell, the Hulkmania era had its critical critics during its heyday and people who weren't even conceived like that. I akin this era in WWE like the New Generation era. The workrate was higher than the previous era though the starpower was lower. For every HBK or Bret Hart, you had Freddie Joe Floyd or T.L Hopper. People wanted Razor or 123 Kid higher on the card but WWF management saw differently. Fans turned against the Hulkster replacement, Lex Luger. Diesel was loved as a heel but turned against when he became the face of the company. High hopes for WWF hiring Cactus Jack (Someone who didn't fit the mold of what WWE usually look for a wrestler) and loving the early Mankind. So many parallels. How many people truly long for or appreciate the New Generation Era? It was garbage and is usually looked back on with disgust save for a few good moments. I think fans are a lot smarter than you give them credit for as far as nostalgia. Yes, some fans are young and will glowingly remember this era as a reminder for their youth, but those old enough to watch the shows for entertainment value will probably look at it the same way they do the New Generation Era (some decent stuff but overall not memorable or good). The Attitude Era is remembered fondly because it was a time when wrestling was socially acceptable. It doesn't age well because it was a societal fad that died once shock TV became passé, but I don't think it's fair to compare the criticism that era got with this era since the difference is popularity between now and then is night and day. Plus, the fans that hated the Attitude Era generally preferred WCW, at least on the boards I visited at the time, so that probably contributed a bit. A good number of people liked the New Generation. The whole reason why Chikara exist is because Mike Quackenbush was a huge New Generation fan. Mark my words; in 10 years when most of the posters here long gave up on wrestling or posting on messageboards, the future smarks will be reading the things said here just like a couple of months ago someone located messageboard posts from the AOL era. A lot of the Attitude Era criticisms came from folks who watched WWF only.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jun 30, 2015 8:18:18 GMT -5
As a sample, let's look at how a month of Raw from 1998 ended, in this case, October 1998:
10/5/98: Rock vs. Undertaker. Taker wins w/ help from Kane. 10/12/98: Rock/Stone Cold vs. Kane/Taker. McMahon's team stands tall when Big Boss Man shows up to help Kane/UT beat up Austin. 10/19/98: Austin holds Vince hostage. "Bang 3:16", and mystery of envelope played up. 10/26/98: Austin vs. Ken Shamrock in I Quit match. Austin wins, then beats up the Stooges.
As you can see from there, we had variety in how the show ended in over four weeks of Raw, not the same thing of "X stands tall over Y" in consecutive weeks.
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Post by Urfarkendarf on Jun 30, 2015 8:20:58 GMT -5
Eh, it's pretty stagnant now, but I find this to be the case almost always for this company the past few years (at least 7) from May to July. It was like this last year and the year before and then business picks up steadily until we get to fall. The summer is typically the pits. Once in a while they'll have one summer angle that goes over well, but for the most part its a slog until the Summerslam push starts and even that sometimes is blah. The Mania hangover is real for the company.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jun 30, 2015 8:24:09 GMT -5
Oddly enough I have gone back and watched some of those New Generation era PPVs from 1994-96. Several of them are actually quite good. It was just the week to week TV back then that was really horrible and boring. The WWF just had zero pulse of the public back then. They had no idea that society had changed from 1990. That's because that classic Vince McMahon stubbornness was in full force. He had cartoon gimmicks and wrestlers when the fans wanted something more gritty and realistic. He was booking like it was the Big 80's when it was the anti-PC 90's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:30:38 GMT -5
How many people truly long for or appreciate the New Generation Era? It was garbage and is usually looked back on with disgust save for a few good moments. I think fans are a lot smarter than you give them credit for as far as nostalgia. Yes, some fans are young and will glowingly remember this era as a reminder for their youth, but those old enough to watch the shows for entertainment value will probably look at it the same way they do the New Generation Era (some decent stuff but overall not memorable or good). The Attitude Era is remembered fondly because it was a time when wrestling was socially acceptable. It doesn't age well because it was a societal fad that died once shock TV became passé, but I don't think it's fair to compare the criticism that era got with this era since the difference is popularity between now and then is night and day. Plus, the fans that hated the Attitude Era generally preferred WCW, at least on the boards I visited at the time, so that probably contributed a bit. A good number of people liked the New Generation. The whole reason why Chikara exist is because Mike Quackenbush was a huge New Generation fan. Mark my words; in 10 years when most of the posters here long gave up on wrestling or posting on messageboards, the future smarks will be reading the things said here just like a couple of months ago someone located messageboard posts from the AOL era. A lot of the Attitude Era criticisms came from folks who watched WWF only. I think you'll find criticism of successful time periods in all forms of entertainment, and there will always be a group of fans who appreciate things that are universally panned just to play devil's advocate or to differ from the norm. That's not to suggest some didn't genuinely like 92-96 or today's product, but overall, if something isn't very good, then it's not going to be remembered fondly unless society changes so drastically that it looks better in hindsight. I see very little New Generation nostalgia anywhere. Granted I don't keep a close eye on today's wrestling outside of reading this forum, but typically when the WWE tries to play the nostalgia card it's either the 80's or the Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars. At least when it comes to wrestling, shitty time periods usually remain shitty. Or maybe that's just me.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jun 30, 2015 8:32:26 GMT -5
As a sample, let's look at how a month of Raw from 1998 ended, in this case, October 1998: 10/5/98: Rock vs. Undertaker. Taker wins w/ help from Kane. 10/12/98: Rock/Stone Cold vs. Kane/Taker. McMahon's team stands tall when Big Boss Man shows up to help Kane/UT beat up Austin. 10/19/98: Austin holds Vince hostage. "Bang 3:16", and mystery of envelope played up. 10/26/98: Austin vs. Ken Shamrock in I Quit match. Austin wins, then beats up the Stooges. As you can see from there, we had variety in how the show ended in over four weeks of Raw, not the same thing of "X stands tall over Y" in consecutive weeks. ...I was going to do that. Anyway, I'd gone from the start of the year through to the start of March when I started making this post, here's what I had... 1/5 - Michaels promo, interrupted by druids with a casket, Undertaker drags Michaels into casket 1/12 - Rumble number drawing promo, turns into a brawl, Austin beaten down on stage by Rock/D'Lo/Vega 1/19 - McMahon/Tyson promo, interrupted by Austin, turns into a brawl 1/26 - Austin promo, challenges Tyson to appear next week 2/2 - Austin v Road Dogg match, no contest after interference by DX, Austin beaten down until Foley makes the save 2/9 - DX promo, turns into brawl between DX/Outlaws and Austin/Foley/Funk/Owen 2/16 - Foley/Funk v Mero/Goldust match, Foley/Funk wins, ends on Sable/Luna brawl 2/23 - Owen v Mero match, Owen wins, ends on Mero/Goldust/Sable/Luna confrontation 3/2 - Kane/Bearer promo, interrupted by Undertaker return So, yeah. Quite a bit of variety there as well.
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Post by Freddy BooJangles on Jun 30, 2015 8:34:56 GMT -5
WWE isn't bad, its just plain dull.
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WWEedy
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,320
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Post by WWEedy on Jun 30, 2015 8:36:44 GMT -5
I agree. I got heavily into the product again for a while leading into Mania and was pretty happy with what they were giving me, bar a couple of booking glitches but now they've drove everything back into the ground and there's nothing going on that they haven't either completely killed my interest in or never had my interest in to begin with.
It seems as if it's the one thing WWE knows how to do well in every instance, have a bunch of stuff that could majorly take off and then proceed to make it the most boring thing on the planet.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jun 30, 2015 8:36:54 GMT -5
A good number of people liked the New Generation. The whole reason why Chikara exist is because Mike Quackenbush was a huge New Generation fan. Mark my words; in 10 years when most of the posters here long gave up on wrestling or posting on messageboards, the future smarks will be reading the things said here just like a couple of months ago someone located messageboard posts from the AOL era. A lot of the Attitude Era criticisms came from folks who watched WWF only. I think you'll find criticism of successful time periods in all forms of entertainment, and there will always be a group of fans who appreciate things that are universally panned just to play devil's advocate or to differ from the norm. That's not to suggest some didn't genuinely like 92-96 or today's product, but overall, if something isn't very good, then it's not going to be remembered fondly unless society changes so drastically that it looks better in hindsight. I see very little New Generation nostalgia anywhere. Granted I don't keep a close eye on today's wrestling outside of reading this forum, but typically when the WWE tries to play the nostalgia card it's either the 80's or the Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars. At least when it comes to wrestling, shitty time periods usually remain shitty. Or maybe that's just me. It exists. There are fans out there of things most hate. Rosa Mendes has actual fans who like her. The Katie Vick angle has supporters. Hell, look on the TNA forum and still got people supporting it as it continues to become a bigger dumpster fire.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 30, 2015 8:39:48 GMT -5
I agree. I got heavily into the product again for a while leading into Mania and was pretty happy with what they were giving me, bar a couple of booking glitches but now they've drove everything back into the ground and there's nothing going on that they haven't either completely killed my interest in or never had my interest in to begin with. It seems as if it's the one thing WWE knows how to do well in every instance, have a bunch of stuff that could majorly take off and then proceed to make it the most boring thing on the planet. I always said that WWE is the best at making amazing things ,just to ruin then
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jun 30, 2015 8:40:54 GMT -5
To continue the experiment, Raw endings from March 1999:
3/1/99: Kane vs. Austin. No contest. Big Show (then as Paul Wight) hits Kane by accident. Austin taunts rivals to end show.
3/8/99: Austin vs. Mankind for latter's guest ref spot at WM. Countout finish due to Show bias against SCSA. Brawl between SCSA and The Rock to end show.
3/15/99: Rock/Big Show vs. Austin/Mankind ends with no winner. Everyone kept brawling until show ended.
3/22/99: Austin vs. Big Show. Austin wins, but The Rock attacks after the match. Mankind and Show brawl. Raw ends with Rock standing tall to set up WM.
3/29/99: X-Pac vs. Triple H ends in DQ. Corporation attack X-Pac. Austin makes the save, but numbers too much. Big Show runs in to cement face turn by aiding Austin. Raw ends with faces cleaning house.
Again, variety ruled.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jun 30, 2015 8:42:39 GMT -5
I won't say WWE is terrible but whenever Seth is asked to cut long promos it isn't gelding his cause.
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Post by Hypnosis on Jun 30, 2015 9:48:10 GMT -5
As a sample, let's look at how a month of Raw from 1998 ended, in this case, October 1998: 10/5/98: Rock vs. Undertaker. Taker wins w/ help from Kane. 10/12/98: Rock/Stone Cold vs. Kane/Taker. McMahon's team stands tall when Big Boss Man shows up to help Kane/UT beat up Austin. 10/19/98: Austin holds Vince hostage. "Bang 3:16", and mystery of envelope played up. 10/26/98: Austin vs. Ken Shamrock in I Quit match. Austin wins, then beats up the Stooges. As you can see from there, we had variety in how the show ended in over four weeks of Raw, not the same thing of "X stands tall over Y" in consecutive weeks. ...I was going to do that. Anyway, I'd gone from the start of the year through to the start of March when I started making this post, here's what I had... 1/5 - Michaels promo, interrupted by druids with a casket, Undertaker drags Michaels into casket 1/12 - Rumble number drawing promo, turns into a brawl, Austin beaten down on stage by Rock/D'Lo/Vega 1/19 - McMahon/Tyson promo, interrupted by Austin, turns into a brawl 1/26 - Austin promo, challenges Tyson to appear next week 2/2 - Austin v Road Dogg match, no contest after interference by DX, Austin beaten down until Foley makes the save 2/9 - DX promo, turns into brawl between DX/Outlaws and Austin/Foley/Funk/Owen 2/16 - Foley/Funk v Mero/Goldust match, Foley/Funk wins, ends on Sable/Luna brawl 2/23 - Owen v Mero match, Owen wins, ends on Mero/Goldust/Sable/Luna confrontation 3/2 - Kane/Bearer promo, interrupted by Undertaker return So, yeah. Quite a bit of variety there as well. It also helped that it wasn't always the same guys ending the shows back then like now.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Jun 30, 2015 9:51:11 GMT -5
WWE is bad and has been for years. They have tremendous talent that gets undercut by how the WWE presents them. These athletes work extremely hard to perform well, but announcing does them no favors. They are not presented like the stars of the past were, the WWE doesn't take the time to properly develop characters and properly and organically build their talent. They have 3 hours of tv on monday, but can't take the time for special entrances to present the talent as these amazing performers. They book repetitive finishes week in and week out. Even steven booking that doesn't elevate either performer. Amazing matches that don't mean anything. The dreaded distraction/roll up victory is so overused. The same beatdown/stand over fallen opponent has been extremely overused. The looooong, repetitive monologue in the beginning of the show and the authority figures that won't go away. Every match is structured in the same format, including the spot where wrestler a gets thrown outside before commercial and after commercial has wrestler b in a rest hold.
Same old shit. No wonder the crowd doesn't care.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jun 30, 2015 9:52:50 GMT -5
I just want to see the Main Event of RAW (at least once a month) be something different like a IC, US, Divas or Tag Title match. Right now it feels like 90% of the time the opening/closing of every RAW for the last year will have included one of these 3 people: Seth, HHH or Roman.
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Madagascar Fred
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Jun 30, 2015 9:52:52 GMT -5
Oddly enough I have gone back and watched some of those New Generation era PPVs from 1994-96. Several of them are actually quite good. It was just the week to week TV back then that was really horrible and boring. The WWF just had zero pulse of the public back then. They had no idea that society had changed from 1990. So its almost like today?
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
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Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Jun 30, 2015 9:54:46 GMT -5
At least we get some really good matches on pretty much every episode, unlike the 90s
But yeah the storylines, endless ring promos and stale characters are excruciating to watch
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Post by abjordans on Jun 30, 2015 10:04:47 GMT -5
I just watch PPVs, NXT, what I watch of Raw before falling asleep(I work early, weird hours.. Last night I fell asleep before Raw started), + anything I missed that seems to be must see. Pretty sweet that way. I keep up online with what is going on so the PPVs make sense. I probably make it through Raw live once a month. The PPVs don't seem so stale like they were starting to when watching Raw every week. Makes them seem like more of a big deal.
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