Zenengage
Trap-Jaw
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Post by Zenengage on Jul 25, 2015 11:46:14 GMT -5
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Post by Hot Noodle Truck on Jul 25, 2015 12:52:27 GMT -5
And "The Great White" Sheamus. Or something dumb like that. I still can't even believe they made a shirt. It didn't even look like a wrestling shirt, it looked like a vague white supremacist shirt. Like they couldn't fit in anything it to make it look like a wrestling shirt or have great white shark jaws or a great white shark or something? Hell Vince loves animal Kingdom stuff, why couldn't they call him the Great White Shark? Whenever he came out wearing it, I just shook my head. Certainly didn't help that they tried hard for a bit to push that name on commentary.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
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Post by Dub H on Jul 25, 2015 12:56:40 GMT -5
I know it was a long time ago, but probably the most racist thing this company has ever done is act like it was common knowledge that all black and Polynesian wrestlers have "hard heads" that would use headbutts and no sell headbutts from other people. Again this was a long time ago, but the late 1980s/early 1990s is not exactly the Antebellum South either. That is a weird stereotype,was it a WWE only thing?
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,646
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 25, 2015 13:01:06 GMT -5
I know it was a long time ago, but probably the most racist thing this company has ever done is act like it was common knowledge that all black and Polynesian wrestlers have "hard heads" that would use headbutts and no sell headbutts from other people. Again this was a long time ago, but the late 1980s/early 1990s is not exactly the Antebellum South either. That is a weird stereotype,was it a WWE only thing? I guess I don't know who started it. I would doubt it was the WWE, but they made it the most prominent and carried it to a national audience. You have stuff like Jesse saying on NBC "what a mistake it was to headbutt Koko. His skull has to at least be a couple of inches thick!" And you have guys headbutt JYD and knocking themselves out. So this is a thing that I'm sure originated in the territories many many years ago, but they perpetuated it. Heck, Rikishi had this character trait in the 2000s!
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chrom
Backup Wench
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Post by chrom on Jul 25, 2015 16:18:21 GMT -5
I know it was a long time ago, but probably the most racist thing this company has ever done is act like it was common knowledge that all black and Polynesian wrestlers have "hard heads" that would use headbutts and no sell headbutts from other people. Again this was a long time ago, but the late 1980s/early 1990s is not exactly the Antebellum South either. That is a weird stereotype,was it a WWE only thing? Meng and Barbarian had it during WCW. While we're on hard heads, I always enjoyed the double knoggin' knocker and wish that made a return.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 61,742
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Jul 25, 2015 16:20:47 GMT -5
Has the Sheamus shirt that looks like a burning cross been mentioned
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 25, 2015 16:57:01 GMT -5
To be fair it's not just black or Asian people that fall prey to this sort of booking. If you come from a country other than America or Canada you are in danger of being stereotyped. Whether French, Irish, Scottish, Arabic etc WWE can't help themselves when it comes to terrible stereotypical gimmicks. It's a tough subject, since stereotyping anybody is pretty damn wrong. I think the main difference is when those stereotypes move beyond "this is lazy, obnoxious, and wrong" and moves toward "this is lazy, obnoxious, wrong, AND it perpetuates a stereotype that is actively used to harm </whichever community>." So, like, Muhammed Hassan being made into a terrorist? REALLY bad stereotype to play on for Muslims on this side of the world (or anywhere else, but you get my drift). Mark Henry and others being portrayed as oversexed and uncontrollably violent black men? Still a stereotype that shapes the treatment of a lot of black people in the Western hemisphere. Meanwhile, slapping kilts on two Scottish guys and calling them The Highlanders? Stupid and lazy, absolutely, and something I'm sure many Scottish people wanted little to nothing to do with, but not bearing the same potential for harm. Hell, portraying Sheamus as "Oirish fella who loves ta foight" (just a few years after doing THE EXACT SAME THING with Finlay) is pretty harmful in its own way, too. But, that also ties to the other side of it- which was mentioned by Jimmy Wang Yang as the example earlier. Part of examining one-note gimmicks like WWE traditionally does give everyone also entails being aware of the inherent knowledge that, on the other side of the coin, if you actively ignore the stereotype in your portrayal, that's still a stereotype (like with the aforementioned example of Jimmy Wang Yang- the entire one-note gimmick there was that Jimmy Wang Yang was a redneck- and in the process, the REAL gimmick was "Get it? It's funny because an Asian guy IS A REDNECK!", which is inherently playing the exact opposite of the stereotypical image of both rednecks and Asian people, in the process playing INTO those stereotypes.) This can be important to realize as a joke, but can also cause be inherently problematic when looking at WWE's problems with diversity (witness Mark Henry's entire career as the example: At different times in Mark Henry's career, he was a black militant, an oversexed guy, an uncontrollably violent force of nature, a happy go lucky guy who's just there to have fun with the WWE Universe, and just simply "He's just Mark Henry, a former Olympic powerlifter who is legitimately one of the strongest human beings on the planet and deserves respect as a world class athlete"- all of which are a vast array all over the spectrum of human existence, and yet it is possible to argue EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS can play to one stereotype or another.
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Jeff Mangum PI
Hank Scorpio
11 herbs and spices for the rest of eternity; Is Number Two. Number Two!
The 2nd Coming
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Jul 25, 2015 18:11:38 GMT -5
This was brought up a bit when Dusty passed but it's always been kinda ironic that the northern-based WWF was way more racist than the southern-based NWA/Jim Crockett Promotions.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 25, 2015 18:21:19 GMT -5
It's a tough subject, since stereotyping anybody is pretty damn wrong. I think the main difference is when those stereotypes move beyond "this is lazy, obnoxious, and wrong" and moves toward "this is lazy, obnoxious, wrong, AND it perpetuates a stereotype that is actively used to harm </whichever community>." So, like, Muhammed Hassan being made into a terrorist? REALLY bad stereotype to play on for Muslims on this side of the world (or anywhere else, but you get my drift). Mark Henry and others being portrayed as oversexed and uncontrollably violent black men? Still a stereotype that shapes the treatment of a lot of black people in the Western hemisphere. Meanwhile, slapping kilts on two Scottish guys and calling them The Highlanders? Stupid and lazy, absolutely, and something I'm sure many Scottish people wanted little to nothing to do with, but not bearing the same potential for harm. Hell, portraying Sheamus as "Oirish fella who loves ta foight" (just a few years after doing THE EXACT SAME THING with Finlay) is pretty harmful in its own way, too. But, that also ties to the other side of it- which was mentioned by Jimmy Wang Yang as the example earlier. Part of examining one-note gimmicks like WWE traditionally does give everyone also entails being aware of the inherent knowledge that, on the other side of the coin, if you actively ignore the stereotype in your portrayal, that's still a stereotype (like with the aforementioned example of Jimmy Wang Yang- the entire one-note gimmick there was that Jimmy Wang Yang was a redneck- and in the process, the REAL gimmick was "Get it? It's funny because an Asian guy IS A REDNECK!", which is inherently playing the exact opposite of the stereotypical image of both rednecks and Asian people, in the process playing INTO those stereotypes.) This can be important to realize as a joke, but can also cause be inherently problematic when looking at WWE's problems with diversity (witness Mark Henry's entire career as the example: At different times in Mark Henry's career, he was a black militant, an oversexed guy, an uncontrollably violent force of nature, a happy go lucky guy who's just there to have fun with the WWE Universe, and just simply "He's just Mark Henry, a former Olympic powerlifter who is legitimately one of the strongest human beings on the planet and deserves respect as a world class athlete"- all of which are a vast array all over the spectrum of human existence, and yet it is possible to argue EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS can play to one stereotype or another. To me, that's too much of a defeatist attitude about it; stereotypes can be challenged, broken, and avoided, and it's not like the only other option is to pull a Jimmy Wang Yang and play off expectations with other stereotypes. If we want to address things in a proper way, there's a clear road to do it: characters can draw on their backgrounds in moulding themselves, but at their core they're individuals, not extensions of stereotypes. So, for example, is it bad if a Japanese wrestler wants to draw on Japanese culture for his character? Of course not; go ask the Great Muta. But the entire core of his character shouldn't be booked as "Look at this different-looking guy who knows martial arts! LOOK AT HIM!", with no room for growth. They shoved Tajiri into that role, and it was pretty awful. Similarly, is it bad if New Day wants to draw on black preachers as an inspiration for their promo style? Absolutely not; real-life experiences and memories work great when shaping characters and styles. But should the core of the New Day be "black guys who do stereotypical things for a predominantly white audiences' amusement"? Then we've got some issues, which is what a lot of people feared when they debuted as faces and before their heel turn showed how the gimmick was a pretty nifty subversion of that. Cryme Time didn't work out that way, because their gimmick had no real depth beyond the harmful stereotype. So I'm sure somewhere out there somebody will always be able to take offense at something, but if you start with a basis of "these are human beings" when looking at your characters, you're at least starting from the right place. From there, you can consult with your talent, you can bring in a diverse writing/booking staff to try and make sure you're not falling into lazy traps with stereotypes, etc.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 25, 2015 18:25:02 GMT -5
This was brought up a bit when Dusty passed but it's always been kinda ironic that the northern-based WWF was way more racist than the southern-based NWA/Jim Crockett Promotions. I'm a US history teacher, and the way I try to teach some of the surprising things we see along those lines tends to be that, historically, the South may have been more overt with its racism, but the way of life often led to more mingling between black and white people, even if not all of that interaction was positive. The North has plenty of overt racism in its history against many groups, but practices like redlining (basically, unofficially-yet-still-legally segregating people) took off in cities like Chicago and other Northern spots. The lack of interaction may have meant less overt racism, but also less experience around black people, which has its own set of negative consequences.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,054
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 25, 2015 18:33:01 GMT -5
To be fair it's not just black or Asian people that fall prey to this sort of booking. If you come from a country other than America or Canada you are in danger of being stereotyped. Whether French, Irish, Scottish, Arabic etc WWE can't help themselves when it comes to terrible stereotypical gimmicks. It's a tough subject, since stereotyping anybody is pretty damn wrong. I think the main difference is when those stereotypes move beyond "this is lazy, obnoxious, and wrong" and moves toward "this is lazy, obnoxious, wrong, AND it perpetuates a stereotype that is actively used to harm </whichever community>." So, like, Muhammed Hassan being made into a terrorist? REALLY bad stereotype to play on for Muslims on this side of the world (or anywhere else, but you get my drift). Mark Henry and others being portrayed as oversexed and uncontrollably violent black men? Still a stereotype that shapes the treatment of a lot of black people in the Western hemisphere. Meanwhile, slapping kilts on two Scottish guys and calling them The Highlanders? Stupid and lazy, absolutely, and something I'm sure many Scottish people wanted little to nothing to do with, but not bearing the same potential for harm. Hell, portraying Sheamus as "Oirish fella who loves ta foight" (just a few years after doing THE EXACT SAME THING with Finlay) is pretty harmful in its own way, too. Hassan was a no-win situation IMO. You couldn't portray him as a face once he started playing the "YOU'RE ALL BIGOTS AND I CAN'T STAND YOU!" card. Even before the deal with calling in a cadre of Mujahideen to "execute" Taker, You're not going to get the live audience behind you by invoking victimology. Sure, you might get the sympathies of 'enlightened' fans who aren't in that arena who can say "Yeah, take that, all you bigots in [insert arena here]!", but the only guy who can get face pops from the same live crowd that he's running down is CM Punk. And Hassan wasn't anything REMOTELY close to CM Punk.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 25, 2015 22:07:22 GMT -5
I know it was a long time ago, but probably the most racist thing this company has ever done is act like it was common knowledge that all black and Polynesian wrestlers have "hard heads" that would use headbutts and no sell headbutts from other people. Again this was a long time ago, but the late 1980s/early 1990s is not exactly the Antebellum South either. That is a weird stereotype,was it a WWE only thing? Was around long before WWF. Bobo Brazil and JYD both had it, most every Samoan in any promotion possessed this superpower as well.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 25, 2015 22:10:29 GMT -5
One thing I will absolutely give credit to WWE for is how they handled Jinder Mahal while in 3MB. He kept dressing traditionally, but it was never focused on or spotlighted as his gimmick at that point. He was just another dude, who happened to be from another culture. They dropped all the cliche Indian stereotypes for him during that period, and frankly, I was enjoying the hell out of him during that time.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,742
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Post by Dub H on Jul 25, 2015 22:23:47 GMT -5
That is a weird stereotype,was it a WWE only thing? Was around long before WWF. Bobo Brazil and JYD both had it, most every Samoan in any promotion possessed this superpower as well. Well let me rephrase then.Was it a wrestling thing?
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Jul 25, 2015 22:47:25 GMT -5
But, that also ties to the other side of it- which was mentioned by Jimmy Wang Yang as the example earlier. Part of examining one-note gimmicks like WWE traditionally does give everyone also entails being aware of the inherent knowledge that, on the other side of the coin, if you actively ignore the stereotype in your portrayal, that's still a stereotype (like with the aforementioned example of Jimmy Wang Yang- the entire one-note gimmick there was that Jimmy Wang Yang was a redneck- and in the process, the REAL gimmick was "Get it? It's funny because an Asian guy IS A REDNECK!", which is inherently playing the exact opposite of the stereotypical image of both rednecks and Asian people, in the process playing INTO those stereotypes.) This can be important to realize as a joke, but can also cause be inherently problematic when looking at WWE's problems with diversity (witness Mark Henry's entire career as the example: At different times in Mark Henry's career, he was a black militant, an oversexed guy, an uncontrollably violent force of nature, a happy go lucky guy who's just there to have fun with the WWE Universe, and just simply "He's just Mark Henry, a former Olympic powerlifter who is legitimately one of the strongest human beings on the planet and deserves respect as a world class athlete"- all of which are a vast array all over the spectrum of human existence, and yet it is possible to argue EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS can play to one stereotype or another. To me, that's too much of a defeatist attitude about it; stereotypes can be challenged, broken, and avoided, and it's not like the only other option is to pull a Jimmy Wang Yang and play off expectations with other stereotypes. If we want to address things in a proper way, there's a clear road to do it: characters can draw on their backgrounds in moulding themselves, but at their core they're individuals, not extensions of stereotypes. So, for example, is it bad if a Japanese wrestler wants to draw on Japanese culture for his character? Of course not; go ask the Great Muta. But the entire core of his character shouldn't be booked as "Look at this different-looking guy who knows martial arts! LOOK AT HIM!", with no room for growth. They shoved Tajiri into that role, and it was pretty awful. Similarly, is it bad if New Day wants to draw on black preachers as an inspiration for their promo style? Absolutely not; real-life experiences and memories work great when shaping characters and styles. But should the core of the New Day be "black guys who do stereotypical things for a predominantly white audiences' amusement"? Then we've got some issues, which is what a lot of people feared when they debuted as faces and before their heel turn showed how the gimmick was a pretty nifty subversion of that. Cryme Time didn't work out that way, because their gimmick had no real depth beyond the harmful stereotype. So I'm sure somewhere out there somebody will always be able to take offense at something, but if you start with a basis of "these are human beings" when looking at your characters, you're at least starting from the right place. From there, you can consult with your talent, you can bring in a diverse writing/booking staff to try and make sure you're not falling into lazy traps with stereotypes, etc. That does tie into the exact problem- in order to make it work, you need to have three-dimensional, well-written characters as a whole that have more than one character trait. That's always been all of pro wrestling's biggest problem with making characters- 99.9999...% of pro wrestling characters are one-note characters, usually boiling down to one personality TRAIT being the defining, if not entirety, of their personality (with only the top of the top of the heap- not even just "only main eventers get to be well-rounded", but usually up to "they have to be THE FACE of the company to have more than one defining personality trait". This becomes a problem because IF you have a one-note character, it will by definition INEVITABLY play into a stereotype in some way (indeed, all stereotypes are EXACTLY "taking a group of people and boiling them down to one characteristic"). Whether it's "these are human beings" or not, the only way to make it work is to give everyone a wide amount of different aspects to their character as well. Consult with talent to get ideas that are more than just one trait to work with, but also realize that you can try not to fall into traps, but at the same time, you also can't run from ideas just because they're stereotypes, and instead have to trust that if you can give someone a wide array of personality traits, those things would quickly be seen less as problematic and more as just another part of a real character.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Jul 26, 2015 0:53:12 GMT -5
They really should make more of the fact that their two longest reigning Divas champions are Hispanic. Instead, they almost seem to be hoping you won't notice.
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Essential1
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Essential1 on Jul 26, 2015 0:53:21 GMT -5
Trish Stratus calling horny black man Viscera a fried chicken eating loser.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Jul 26, 2015 0:54:45 GMT -5
One thing I will absolutely give credit to WWE for is how they handled Jinder Mahal while in 3MB. He kept dressing traditionally, but it was never focused on or spotlighted as his gimmick at that point. He was just another dude, who happened to be from another culture. They dropped all the cliche Indian stereotypes for him during that period, and frankly, I was enjoying the hell out of him during that time. Apart from that time on Smackdown where him and Khali were playing flutes to 'charm' Santino's Cobra, no doubt to the amusement of Michael Hayes and Michael Hayes alone.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Jul 26, 2015 1:21:57 GMT -5
[Cheesy WW2 propaganda voice] Here at WWE, we invite members of the WWE Universe to join us in celebrating cultural diversity! Great job, young one! [/Cheesy WW2 propaganda voice]
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The Yes Man
Unicron
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Post by The Yes Man on Jul 26, 2015 2:22:50 GMT -5
One thing I will absolutely give credit to WWE for is how they handled Jinder Mahal while in 3MB. He kept dressing traditionally, but it was never focused on or spotlighted as his gimmick at that point. He was just another dude, who happened to be from another culture. They dropped all the cliche Indian stereotypes for him during that period, and frankly, I was enjoying the hell out of him during that time. Apart from that time on Smackdown where him and Khali were playing flutes to 'charm' Santino's Cobra, no doubt to the amusement of Michael Hayes and Michael Hayes alone. That segment where they charmed the cobra was actually the first time I ever changed the channel during wrestling.
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