edgehead
Dennis Stamp
Not a Poopyhead
Posts: 4,086
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Post by edgehead on Aug 28, 2015 20:21:16 GMT -5
I will say this in defense of WWE. I can't imagine now hard it must be having to appeal to such a wide demographic every week. Their only demographic are wrestling fans. The age and gender and economic status are all largely meaningless. It's not that difficult, or at least it wouldn't be if they acknowledged they are a wrestling promotion. Well, that is a bit of the problem since wrestling has changed so much. Wrestling has went through such an evolution over the years that they have to appeal to those who have watched for years and those who have only watched for a few years. There is such a difference of opinion just here in this online community that they can't even make all of us happy. I can't imagine throwing in millions of viewers and several countries. A wrestling fan can have so many different meanings.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 28, 2015 21:23:28 GMT -5
Let's not pretend that we don't get some fantastic matches on a weekly basis. Storylines need a bit of working on but my god, if you think it's crap now I challenge you to get through an Attitude era RAW on the network and still like it. It's like watching a video of you dancing and singing drunk at a wedding. "Why did I think this was a good idea!?" The matches are what make matters worse. When you include NXT, WWE has its most talented roster EVER. Yet, they're being squandered and wasted. People got mad at the Reigns stuff because WWE insisted on pushing him over his peers, rather than WITH his peers. Imagine a WWE where Cena and Orton are special attractions, there's no more Authority, and Big Show, Kane, Henry, and R-Truth are just gone. You wouldn't lose that match quality, and storylines would have to revolve around fresh talent. I long for the day WWE revolves around Rollins, Ambrose, Reigns, Owens, New Day, Cesaro, Zayn, Balor, Wyatt, etc. The old guard has to piss off for quality to improve. They just encourage the lazy booking.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,890
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Aug 28, 2015 21:31:05 GMT -5
I will say this in defense of WWE. I can't imagine now hard it must be having to appeal to such a wide demographic every week. Their only demographic are wrestling fans. The age and gender and economic status are all largely meaningless. It's not that difficult, or at least it wouldn't be if they acknowledged they are a wrestling promotion. Where you typed wrestling fans, you mean shareholders. Shareholders don't like surprises. As long as they're happy, everything stays basically the same. Trying out guys as champion are done, stare at the ratings and the attendance and that's what we get from then on. With the same reliable guys on top.
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wakko
Samurai Cop
Knows This
BAAAGH!!!!
Posts: 2,208
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Post by wakko on Aug 28, 2015 22:58:39 GMT -5
2 reasons.
The board or shareholders/TV network/advertisers. Things don't change because they are doing just fine with things as they are now. The ratings and money they bring in is stable enough that they don't need to change anything.
The second reason? No competition. Without someone creeping up to take them on and threaten their place atop the mountain, they are happy to leave well enough alone. Now if some company comes along like WCW did in the 90s and causes a shakeup, they will be forced to change to appease the fans and everyone else.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 2:43:17 GMT -5
The product is nowhere near as bad as people on the internet make out.
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Post by sonofblaine on Aug 29, 2015 3:55:11 GMT -5
They're making enough money doing what they already do and it's run by a senile old shit and his merry band of yes-men.
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Aug 29, 2015 3:58:35 GMT -5
Because they honestly think their shows are good, lol. There's a difference between not wanting to do something and just being incompetent at it. Yeah as long as ratings, network subscribers and show attendances are okay, nothing will drastically change Would be interesting to see what happens when football season starts and destroys RAW on Mondays...bring back more parttimers? More Authority? Shorter pants for Charlotte?
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Palmer
Trap-Jaw
Noodlemania
Posts: 267
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Post by Palmer on Aug 29, 2015 5:38:35 GMT -5
I think the shows are fine. If you don't have the IWC mindset of "OMG everything WWE is turrible except the things I like!" And just watch as a fan instead of armchair booking, really, they're usually not that bad.
Not great, but better matches than the beloved Attitude Era.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 29, 2015 5:47:44 GMT -5
The product is nowhere near as bad as people on the internet make out. WWE is constantly misusing talent and won't actually work to make the most of its programming.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,279
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Post by Woo on Aug 29, 2015 6:48:47 GMT -5
I don't think there's a show they can put on that would prevent the usual suspects here from whining. The specific complaint you bring up, not enough separation in the pecking order could be changed by promoting half the guys and demoting the other half, but there would so much whining here about the half that got demoted. If they put out a show was good as NXT, Smackdown in 2002-03 or 2009, WWE in the year 2000 or TNA 2005 then there would be fare less "whining."
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Aug 29, 2015 6:59:50 GMT -5
The product is nowhere near as bad as people on the internet make out. But to me and others it is bad. I was gradually driven away over years and could type a laundry list of reasons why. I came back time and time again after disappointments only to finally have enough and the way the company is run as well as on screen is part of it. I'm genuinely happy for you that you can enjoy it, I'd never begrudge anyone that. Trust me I wish I could enjoy it, I don't just complain for the sake of it about other things I'm into. No matter how entertaining reading about the madness that is WWE is I'd much rather have an awesome product I could enjoy every week.
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Post by benstudd on Aug 29, 2015 7:02:29 GMT -5
I'm convinced they actually think they are making quality TV. And as long as people keep watching, they will too. The only time Vince has really "updated" the product was when he was getting his ass kicked by another company that took all his stars. WWF was close to bankruptcy so they had nothing to lose. With no competition, access to pretty much any wrestler they want to use, and millions of people still watching they will continue to make this stale ass show until Vince is gone. Your post made me realise this, that Vince can use all the wrestlers he wants basically and this is what he produces. He can have the best writers, the best wrestling minds. He has Billion Dollar company with great sponsors, people are filling arenas to see his show. The WWE are the only game in town. Vince is sort of the God of his own medium when you think about it. He can click his fingers and things happens in the World of wrestling. And this is what he, they do. This deserves a
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Post by benstudd on Aug 29, 2015 7:14:23 GMT -5
I will say this in defense of WWE. I can't imagine now hard it must be having to appeal to such a wide demographic every week. Well there's a better way to do this. Watch the WWF in the 80s. It appealed to manly hairy dudes, to kids, to everybody. I will admit it wasn't my favorite thing but it wasn't sanitized like it is now. They had a plan, they had vision and it was an entertaining vision and it worked. It was Rock N Wrestling. Now it's the Don't Rock the Boat N Wrestling. How can they view at it as "entertainment" even?
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Post by Hickster on Aug 29, 2015 7:41:10 GMT -5
I'd be happy if they spent less time doing replays and flashbacks, and instead gave more people a match on TV. Also, for the love of God no more talking to start the show. They have all of these really talented guys, give them a ten minute match to start the show.
I watched an old Nitro on the Network that had three of Ultimo Dragon's protégés vs El Dandy, Psiscosis and La Parka. They had no quarrel, it was just a match. In it, all six of them furthered their character. The E could easily do that, at least on Smackdown.
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Aug 29, 2015 8:25:13 GMT -5
How can they view at it as "entertainment" even? Dancing! Celebrities! Movies! DANCING
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AFN: Judge Shred
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wanted to change his doohicky.
Member of The Bluetista Buyers Club
Posts: 18,221
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Aug 29, 2015 11:41:13 GMT -5
The product is nowhere near as bad as people on the internet make out. It isn't bad as much as it is frustrating. You can see that there is quality stuff dying to happen, and it gets cut off at the knees to stay safe. There is no chance for a new Austin type situation because that is scary and unknown. And it drives us nuts. We want to love it and be surprised.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 29, 2015 15:19:00 GMT -5
Here's my problem with the product at hand. The other night I was thinking about this last night. I honestly feel we don't give enough credit to the acting skills of Hogan, Savage, Bret, Shawn, Taker, Austin, Foley, Rock, Flair, and even Hunter.
They actually made you believe in their characters/gimmicks. Which is one of the biggest problems today. There's nothing that separates the wrestlers today, when you look at it from that perspective, they all act the same, say the same things, and almost tend to wrestle the same exact style. I understand they're attempting to create a scenario of there's no true good guys, bad guys, or neutral characters. But at least during the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's there was at least an idea of who was good and bad.
The wrestlers who are babyfaces or heels aren't allowed to act as such. Remember the days when the heel tag teams would sneak in without the officials looking, choking the face wrestler with the tag rope, running in to prevent the hot tag, and cheat more in terms of gaining the upper hand. It doesn't seem like they do that anymore, when in retrospect, as I stated, it appears that the wrestlers act the same where there's no clear difference between the two alignments.
One of the biggest issues is how someone like Cena is booked. He doesn't show any weakness, no signs of a loss bothering him, and granted the closest we got was him being pissed over Rollins beating him. Which is how a face in peril should act and at least in the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's the top face showed weakness, didn't win all the time, and when he was put on the shelf he was actually on the shelf and didn't appear for a good while which made his return fresh and exciting.
Say what you want about Hogan and his politics. However, at least in his feuds and matches he sold the moment, the attacks, and opponents tended to look better in losses than they do nowadays. I honestly think it's time to go back to the traditional old school ways of booking, interviews, and writings. Start giving the fans a reason to cheer the faces, a reason to boo the heels, and create a product that is actually worth getting emotionally invested in rather than putting something out that's great and exciting one second then boring the next. I remember when I grew up watching the likes of Taker, Papa Shango, and Jake The Snake(heel era) and how scary they were. Heels like Bray should be frightening and be depicted as such, push the literal envelope, and have fans be afraid of him and his cult while still hating him at the same time.
They have great minds for the business with guys like Heyman, Arn Anderson, and Malenko as agents and occasional bookers. Start picking their brains, have them book shows, and write angles. I would listen to guys like Nash, Hall, even Hunter, and Shawn when they talk about how they would book and they have such amazing minds for the business it's scary. Despite what we may think of them personally and politically, in the end, the current and even retired wrestlers understand their roles and create the best product when they're allowed to have say so in how their characters are portrayed and how angles are created/booked.
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Post by idislikeeverything on Aug 29, 2015 15:48:39 GMT -5
Here's my problem with the product at hand. The other night I was thinking about this last night. I honestly feel we don't give enough credit to the acting skills of Hogan, Savage, Bret, Shawn, Taker, Austin, Foley, Rock, Flair, and even Hunter. They actually made you believe in their characters/gimmicks. Which is one of the biggest problems today. There's nothing that separates the wrestlers today, when you look at it from that perspective, they all act the same, say the same things, and almost tend to wrestle the same exact style. I understand they're attempting to create a scenario of there's no true good guys, bad guys, or neutral characters. But at least during the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's there was at least an idea of who was good and bad. The wrestlers who are babyfaces or heels aren't allowed to act as such. Remember the days when the heel tag teams would sneak in without the officials looking, choking the face wrestler with the tag rope, running in to prevent the hot tag, and cheat more in terms of gaining the upper hand. It doesn't seem like they do that anymore, when in retrospect, as I stated, it appears that the wrestlers act the same where there's no clear difference between the two alignments. One of the biggest issues is how someone like Cena is booked. He doesn't show any weakness, no signs of a loss bothering him, and granted the closest we got was him being pissed over Rollins beating him. Which is how a face in peril should act and at least in the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's the top face showed weakness, didn't win all the time, and when he was put on the shelf he was actually on the shelf and didn't appear for a good while which made his return fresh and exciting.Say what you want about Hogan and his politics. However, at least in his feuds and matches he sold the moment, the attacks, and opponents tended to look better in losses than they do nowadays. I honestly think it's time to go back to the traditional old school ways of booking, interviews, and writings. Start giving the fans a reason to cheer the faces, a reason to boo the heels, and create a product that is actually worth getting emotionally invested in rather than putting something out that's great and exciting one second then boring the next. I remember when I grew up watching the likes of Taker, Papa Shango, and Jake The Snake(heel era) and how scary they were. Heels like Bray should be frightening and be depicted as such, push the literal envelope, and have fans be afraid of him and his cult while still hating him at the same time. They have great minds for the business with guys like Heyman, Arn Anderson, and Malenko as agents and occasional bookers. Start picking their brains, have them book shows, and write angles. I would listen to guys like Nash, Hall, even Hunter, and Shawn when they talk about how they would book and they have such amazing minds for the business it's scary. Despite what we may think of them personally and politically, in the end, the current and even retired wrestlers understand their roles and create the best product when they're allowed to have say so in how their characters are portrayed and how angles are created/booked. But when he does that, he gives a promo and a lot of people say he buried Rollins and was playing politics. He, like WWE, cannot win as no matter what they do, you see 90% complaints purely because it is the main roster. NXT, however, can do no wrong even if it does exactly the same as the main roster.
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Albino Heat
Don Corleone
You're a nasty bastard, and your momma said so!!
Posts: 2,095
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Post by Albino Heat on Aug 29, 2015 16:17:52 GMT -5
I would argue that match/show quality is not that big a factor in ratings.
RAW is miles better quality wise then it was at its ratings peak in 98 and 99. But right now there isn't that must see superstar like Austin, Hogan, or the Rock.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 29, 2015 16:20:48 GMT -5
Here's my problem with the product at hand. The other night I was thinking about this last night. I honestly feel we don't give enough credit to the acting skills of Hogan, Savage, Bret, Shawn, Taker, Austin, Foley, Rock, Flair, and even Hunter. They actually made you believe in their characters/gimmicks. Which is one of the biggest problems today. There's nothing that separates the wrestlers today, when you look at it from that perspective, they all act the same, say the same things, and almost tend to wrestle the same exact style. I understand they're attempting to create a scenario of there's no true good guys, bad guys, or neutral characters. But at least during the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's there was at least an idea of who was good and bad. The wrestlers who are babyfaces or heels aren't allowed to act as such. Remember the days when the heel tag teams would sneak in without the officials looking, choking the face wrestler with the tag rope, running in to prevent the hot tag, and cheat more in terms of gaining the upper hand. It doesn't seem like they do that anymore, when in retrospect, as I stated, it appears that the wrestlers act the same where there's no clear difference between the two alignments. One of the biggest issues is how someone like Cena is booked. He doesn't show any weakness, no signs of a loss bothering him, and granted the closest we got was him being pissed over Rollins beating him. Which is how a face in peril should act and at least in the 80's, 90's, and even early 2000's the top face showed weakness, didn't win all the time, and when he was put on the shelf he was actually on the shelf and didn't appear for a good while which made his return fresh and exciting.Say what you want about Hogan and his politics. However, at least in his feuds and matches he sold the moment, the attacks, and opponents tended to look better in losses than they do nowadays. I honestly think it's time to go back to the traditional old school ways of booking, interviews, and writings. Start giving the fans a reason to cheer the faces, a reason to boo the heels, and create a product that is actually worth getting emotionally invested in rather than putting something out that's great and exciting one second then boring the next. I remember when I grew up watching the likes of Taker, Papa Shango, and Jake The Snake(heel era) and how scary they were. Heels like Bray should be frightening and be depicted as such, push the literal envelope, and have fans be afraid of him and his cult while still hating him at the same time. They have great minds for the business with guys like Heyman, Arn Anderson, and Malenko as agents and occasional bookers. Start picking their brains, have them book shows, and write angles. I would listen to guys like Nash, Hall, even Hunter, and Shawn when they talk about how they would book and they have such amazing minds for the business it's scary. Despite what we may think of them personally and politically, in the end, the current and even retired wrestlers understand their roles and create the best product when they're allowed to have say so in how their characters are portrayed and how angles are created/booked. But when he does that, he gives a promo and a lot of people say he buried Rollins and was playing politics. He, like WWE, cannot win as no matter what they do, you see 90% complaints purely because it is the main roster. NXT, however, can do no wrong even if it does exactly the same as the main roster. The problem with the promo you speak of is how no one is allowed to really get the last word with Cena. You had heels like a Flair, Jake The Snake, Hunter, Austin, Bret, and even Shawn who allowed still managed to hold their own against the top face despite being a heel. I haven't seen NXT so I can't really make any true objective review on how their talent, shows, and storylines are handled. But from my point of view, feuding with and losing to Cena seems to do more harm than good. When you look at guys like Wade Barrett, Kevin Owens, Cesaro, and Ambrose who should've went over on him and they end up losing, only for them to fall back into obscurity and doing nothing, that's what people are talking about in terms of how they're booked against Cena. Whether or not he's playing politics I don't know. But the WWE needs to think of the future and realize guys like Cena, Big Show, and Kane will not be doing this forever. Time to start focusing on the likes of Rhodes, Ziggler, Bryan, Cesaro, Owens, Ambrose, Wyatt, Bo Dallas, and the continued success of Seth Rollins as those are the guys who will be there when Taker, Cena, Show, Kane, and the part-timers decide it's time for them to let it go.
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