Can someone EASILY explain MGS's Big Boss plot? (spoliers)

[Confused Mark Wahlberg]

So I beat MGSV and I have no clue what is happening or why. I try reading the Wiki but I get even more confused.

[A Platypus Rave]

Well it's Metal Gear Solid... confusing and semi-nonsensical plot should be expected.

[xCompackx]

Yeah, there's no easy explanation regarding MGS' plot. I feel like you'd need at least 3 entire notebooks worth of information to understand it all.

[Push R Truth]

We are but mere mortals and you ask for a favor worthy of a god

[Heartbreaker]

Kojima went all M. Night Shamalamadingdong.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I'm going to try my best.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}In the end of Ground Zeroes, do you remember that field medic tending to Paz? Who also had the same voice as Big Boss and his face was obscured? You are him. When that explosion happened, the field medic was put into a coma, and during then, had plastic surgery to resemble Big Boss, while the real deal started to make the foundations of Outer Heaven.

So, when the field medic wakes up, he is now Venom Snake, and thought to be Big Boss, so he can take on Cipher, while the real one keeps doing his thing. Speaking of Cipher, Skull Face has stolen it's power from Zero, who is making a new Metal Gear piloted by the future Psycho Mantis and also is using a form of parasites that infect the vocal cords and can kill you if you speak a certain language.

.....Hey, it's Japan.

The Fake Big Boss is the man Solid Snake killed in Metal Gear 1 and then the real Big Boss was beaten at Metal Gear 2.

[Mozenrath]

Oct 6, 2015 20:09:21 GMT -5 Johnny B. Decent said:

I'm going to try my best.

SPOILER: Click to show

In the end of Ground Zeroes, do you remember that field medic tending to Paz? Who also had the same voice as Big Boss and his face was obscured? You are him. When that explosion happened, the field medic was put into a coma, and during then, had plastic surgery to resemble Big Boss, while the real deal started to make the foundations of Outer Heaven.

So, when the field medic wakes up, he is now Venom Snake, and thought to be Big Boss, so he can take on Cipher, while the real one keeps doing his thing. Speaking of Cipher, Skull Face has stolen it's power from Zero, who is making a new Metal Gear piloted by the future Psycho Mantis and also is using a form of parasites that infect the vocal cords and can kill you if you speak a certain language.

.....Hey, it's Japan.

The Fake Big Boss is the man Solid Snake killed in Metal Gear 1 and then the real Big Boss was beaten at Metal Gear 2.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}It helps a little if you've seen/played MGS4 and see the deplorable state Zero's been in for a long time now. It's also demonstrating somewhat how messed up Big Boss's ethics are becoming over time in that he is getting increasingly morally bankrupt.

[mysterydriver]

Nanomachines.

[Confused Mark Wahlberg]

Oct 6, 2015 20:09:21 GMT -5 Johnny B. Decent said:

I'm going to try my best.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}In the end of Ground Zeroes, do you remember that field medic tending to Paz? Who also had the same voice as Big Boss and his face was obscured? You are him. When that explosion happened, the field medic was put into a coma, and during then, had plastic surgery to resemble Big Boss, while the real deal started to make the foundations of Outer Heaven.

So, when the field medic wakes up, he is now Venom Snake, and thought to be Big Boss, so he can take on Cipher, while the real one keeps doing his thing. Speaking of Cipher, Skull Face has stolen it's power from Zero, who is making a new Metal Gear piloted by the future Psycho Mantis and also is using a form of parasites that infect the vocal cords and can kill you if you speak a certain language.

.....Hey, it's Japan.

The Fake Big Boss is the man Solid Snake killed in Metal Gear 1 and then the real Big Boss was beaten at Metal Gear 2.

Thanks. I don't get how this 'twist' helps the already convoluted plot at all.

[The Sam]

Revenge for the death of the greatest soldier ever,

BEE'S!!!!

[JDviant]

Oct 6, 2015 21:34:17 GMT -5 Confused Mark Wahlberg said:

Thanks. I don't get how this 'twist' helps the already convoluted plot at all.

It doesn't, it actually adds very little and deliberately goes against what the trailers for the game said, where it was shown that this would be the tie-in to the events of the original Metal Gear game. This is not the fall of Big Boss, this is not the missing chapter.

If MGSV didn't exist it changes very, very little of the lore we already knew at the end of the last Big Boss game, Peacewalker.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2015 21:34:17 GMT -5 Confused Mark Wahlberg said:

Thanks. I don't get how this 'twist' helps the already convoluted plot at all.

Oct 7, 2015 7:34:28 GMT -5 JDviant said:

It doesn't, it actually adds very little and deliberately goes against what the trailers for the game said, where it was shown that this would be the tie-in to the events of the original Metal Gear game. This is not the fall of Big Boss, this is not the missing chapter.

If MGSV didn't exist it changes very, very little of the lore we already knew at the end of the last Big Boss game, Peacewalker.

The idea behind the twist is that Big Boss' fall already happened.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}It happened at the end of Peace Walker, when he threw off the Boss' bandana and abandoned her ideals. Big Boss' whole reason for establishing Mother Base/Outer Heaven was that he wanted to create a world where soldiers wouldn't be pawns to be used and disposed of. And yet what does he do as of MGSV? He takes his most talented, most loyal soldier, and brainwashes him into becoming Venom Snake so as to create a perfect scapegoat and body double - he robs Venom of his past and his identity in order to make him into a tool. Then, Big Boss lets an entire hospital get massacred to aid in Venom's escape.

He's already a villain - but like so many others in the series, he's not some sort of cartoonish monster. He's flawed and hypocritical and has done horrible things for what he feels is the right cause. Look at Kaz for another example of that - he's sympathetic because he's our XO and we've spent two games with him, and yet he's a man who flat out says that the proxy wars in Africa, the ones that involve child soldiers and horrific civilian casualties, are a good thing because they line his pockets. Morality is never black and white in MGS games, and it makes sense that Big Boss' fall would be handled in a similarly subtle way. Whether or not the game communicated it effectively is a matter of personal interpretation, but I personally feel it was pretty well-done.

Then again, 2 and 4 are my favorites in the series, while they seem to be everyone else's most maligned, so I might just be nuts.

[EyeofTyr]

Oct 7, 2015 8:19:28 GMT -5 @tacticalsneakman said:

Oct 6, 2015 21:34:17 GMT -5 Confused Mark Wahlberg said:

Thanks. I don't get how this 'twist' helps the already convoluted plot at all.

Oct 7, 2015 7:34:28 GMT -5 JDviant said:

It doesn't, it actually adds very little and deliberately goes against what the trailers for the game said, where it was shown that this would be the tie-in to the events of the original Metal Gear game. This is not the fall of Big Boss, this is not the missing chapter.

If MGSV didn't exist it changes very, very little of the lore we already knew at the end of the last Big Boss game, Peacewalker.

The idea behind the twist is that Big Boss' fall already happened.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}It happened at the end of Peace Walker, when he threw off the Boss' bandana and abandoned her ideals. Big Boss' whole reason for establishing Mother Base/Outer Heaven was that he wanted to create a world where soldiers wouldn't be pawns to be used and disposed of. And yet what does he do as of MGSV? He takes his most talented, most loyal soldier, and brainwashes him into becoming Venom Snake so as to create a perfect scapegoat and body double - he robs Venom of his past and his identity in order to make him into a tool. Then, Big Boss lets an entire hospital get massacred to aid in Venom's escape.

He's already a villain - but like so many others in the series, he's not some sort of cartoonish monster. He's flawed and hypocritical and has done horrible things for what he feels is the right cause. Look at Kaz for another example of that - he's sympathetic because he's our XO and we've spent two games with him, and yet he's a man who flat out says that the proxy wars in Africa, the ones that involve child soldiers and horrific civilian casualties, are a good thing because they line his pockets. Morality is never black and white in MGS games, and it makes sense that Big Boss' fall would be handled in a similarly subtle way. Whether or not the game communicated it effectively is a matter of personal interpretation, but I personally feel it was pretty well-done.

Then again, 2 and 4 are my favorites in the series, while they seem to be everyone else's most maligned, so I must just be nuts

Another aspect of it was deconstructing a larger than life legend. In a sense, MGSV is the Watchmen of the MGS series. It takes these lofty myths and legends of Big Boss that are spouted through almost six whole games and it shows you the reality of the man behind this awe inspiring persona. 

In regards to that, I felt Kojima hit it out of the park with how he so thoroughly brought Big Boss down to a man's level rather than the mighty super soldier everyone thinks he is because of his dirty dealings. 

And, I'm unsure why so many fans are upset over MGSV, really. Kojima lies, this is known, so I didn't trust everything I saw in the trailers as being hundred percent accurate to the final story. Obviously something was up, the horn & the hand & other characteristics of Venom that don't resemble the Big Boss we know in the future of this timeline. I wasn't sure if he was a clone or what, but I was pretty positive for a very long time that it wasn't Big Boss you were playing as.

On the subject of the swerve, really? Kojima's known for this too. The most infamous one prior to this is promoting MGS2 as getting to play as "Snake" again, only to reveal it's now the code name of Raiden so you are technically playing as Snake. Strangest thing to me is that when the first trailer dropped most people even said "There has to be a twist, it's Kojima" and yet I've seen those same people now get mad and taken off guard there was a twist. 

I don't know, maybe I've accepted and know what to expect from the MGS series, and know what it isn't. For me, the story was interesting and it fills in some interesting blanks that were in the timeline and answers what was seen as a big inconsistency in the original Metal Gear. I enjoyed the gameplay and for what story they managed to put in there, I liked it and I just like getting glimpses into the weird, whacky world that Kojima crafted. 

[Raskovnik]

Oct 7, 2015 8:19:28 GMT -5 @tacticalsneakman said:

Oct 6, 2015 21:34:17 GMT -5 Confused Mark Wahlberg said:

Thanks. I don't get how this 'twist' helps the already convoluted plot at all.

Oct 7, 2015 7:34:28 GMT -5 JDviant said:

It doesn't, it actually adds very little and deliberately goes against what the trailers for the game said, where it was shown that this would be the tie-in to the events of the original Metal Gear game. This is not the fall of Big Boss, this is not the missing chapter.

If MGSV didn't exist it changes very, very little of the lore we already knew at the end of the last Big Boss game, Peacewalker.

The idea behind the twist is that Big Boss' fall already happened.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}It happened at the end of Peace Walker, when he threw off the Boss' bandana and abandoned her ideals. Big Boss' whole reason for establishing Mother Base/Outer Heaven was that he wanted to create a world where soldiers wouldn't be pawns to be used and disposed of. And yet what does he do as of MGSV? He takes his most talented, most loyal soldier, and brainwashes him into becoming Venom Snake so as to create a perfect scapegoat and body double - he robs Venom of his past and his identity in order to make him into a tool. Then, Big Boss lets an entire hospital get massacred to aid in Venom's escape.

He's already a villain - but like so many others in the series, he's not some sort of cartoonish monster. He's flawed and hypocritical and has done horrible things for what he feels is the right cause. Look at Kaz for another example of that - he's sympathetic because he's our XO and we've spent two games with him, and yet he's a man who flat out says that the proxy wars in Africa, the ones that involve child soldiers and horrific civilian casualties, are a good thing because they line his pockets. Morality is never black and white in MGS games, and it makes sense that Big Boss' fall would be handled in a similarly subtle way. Whether or not the game communicated it effectively is a matter of personal interpretation, but I personally feel it was pretty well-done.

Then again, 2 and 4 are my favorites in the series, while they seem to be everyone else's most maligned, so I might just be nuts.

Seriously, f***ing this. I've been avoiding discussing the games, particularly this one, with anyone because it seems so many people outright miss the point but thank you. Especially since they seem to outright ignore the tapes. Also, 2 is by far my favorite in the series and IMO the zenith of the franchise, but it seems like people really only enjoy 1, 3, and Rising, the latter of which isn't even an MGS game. It's not so much just this thread but other communities I'm involved in that has got me so frustrated. 

[Chainsaw]

Regarding any loose ends or nonsensical plotlines in the MGS series...

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}A wizard did it.

[BorneAgain]

Oct 7, 2015 8:49:06 GMT -5 EyeofTyr said:

Oct 7, 2015 8:19:28 GMT -5 @tacticalsneakman said:

The idea behind the twist is that Big Boss' fall already happened.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}It happened at the end of Peace Walker, when he threw off the Boss' bandanna and abandoned her ideals. Big Boss' whole reason for establishing Mother Base/Outer Heaven was that he wanted to create a world where soldiers wouldn't be pawns to be used and disposed of. And yet what does he do as of MGSV? He takes his most talented, most loyal soldier, and brainwashes him into becoming Venom Snake so as to create a perfect scapegoat and body double - he robs Venom of his past and his identity in order to make him into a tool. Then, Big Boss lets an entire hospital get massacred to aid in Venom's escape.

He's already a villain - but like so many others in the series, he's not some sort of cartoonish monster. He's flawed and hypocritical and has done horrible things for what he feels is the right cause. Look at Kaz for another example of that - he's sympathetic because he's our XO and we've spent two games with him, and yet he's a man who flat out says that the proxy wars in Africa, the ones that involve child soldiers and horrific civilian casualties, are a good thing because they line his pockets. Morality is never black and white in MGS games, and it makes sense that Big Boss' fall would be handled in a similarly subtle way. Whether or not the game communicated it effectively is a matter of personal interpretation, but I personally feel it was pretty well-done.

Then again, 2 and 4 are my favorites in the series, while they seem to be everyone else's most maligned, so I must just be nuts

Another aspect of it was deconstructing a larger than life legend. In a sense, MGSV is the Watchmen of the MGS series. It takes these lofty myths and legends of Big Boss that are spouted through almost six whole games and it shows you the reality of the man behind this awe inspiring persona.

In regards to that, I felt Kojima hit it out of the park with how he so thoroughly brought Big Boss down to a man's level rather than the mighty super soldier everyone thinks he is because of his dirty dealings.

I think V overall was really crafted to demonstrate precisely how the likes of Snake and Hal proved to be better men than the likes of Big Boss and Huey and why something like Philanthropy served the world better than the Diamond Dogs ever could. With someone like BB he certainly suffers from the manipulations of Skullface and Cypher, but ultimately proves to be not much better than they are, cultivating a cult of personality and willfully developing a Metal Gear in spite of the blatant risks in doing so. For all his talk of a soldier's nation he creates just as much danger to them as the governmental and dictator types he so loathes. His and Kaz's belief in the constant nature of war and conflict (thus justifying something like Mother Base) betrays that such an attitude will ensure that peace will never become a possibility.

Compare that with Snake whom in spite of being deceived, betrayed, and hurt from everyone and being chained by his own genetics to an early grave, still keeps fighting against the machine of perpetual war and never allows his unwilling status as a pawn to induce him into becoming a manipulative chessmaster himself. The difference in philosophies is even present in the fate of their respective mission partners/commanders with Kaz (for all his rants about being played like a fiddle) ends up being a victim to the very kind of child soldier he once deemed so disposable. Someone like Roy Campbell (a flawed man who also struggled with being a cog in the machine subject to the whims of others) though, is last seen reunited with his daughter, renewing a bond that Kaz could and would never really have (even with Big Boss).

The point of difference between the elder and junior Emmerichs is the most triumphant generational example and its rooted in one of the most simple, but important of Kojima's themes: taking responsibility for your actions and working to create a better future. Hal realizes his own role in contributing to an unstable and violent world, and takes steps to what he can not just to undo his own work, but to improve the world at large. In spite of his own personal tragedies and loss, he still looks beyond his own pain and goes forward because he's found a purpose in making things better. Not Huey though. For him, every bad consequence is never his fault. Every lost life is because someone else made a mistake. Every single time the world gets a little worse, it only matters because it affects him. There's never any self improvement in him because there's never a willingness to look in the mirror. Otacon could have been weighed down by guilt, but he eventually stood proud. Huey even with his mechanical legs, never stood for anything.

[Confused Mark Wahlberg]

"We live and die by your orders, Boss"

[MrElijah]

This discussion raises a question: while Raiden is a guy who fights the good fight like Solid Snake, is Jetstream Sam his Big Boss in a way?