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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 12:48:42 GMT -5
Whoo boy is this post over the top. No, a poster is not evil for not thinking wrestling doesn't need intergender matches. Evil. Honestly. Please man, take a breath. Anyway, it can be done and should be done. It's a show. It's a comic book. No reason it can't work as long as you treat it seriously and don't make every single match "heel man underestimates little lady face" as so many Indies fall into. Watch Candice Lerae over in PWG. Wrestles dudes almost exclusively. First off, I ALSO think intergender matches are fine in wrestling. And I firmly admit I am evil because I think that way. As are you, and as are everyone else who wants intergender matches. And honestly? For that same reason? Everyone who thinks wrestling SHOULDN'T have intergender matches are ALSO evil for NOT wanting them. That is the point. EVERY possible thought on this subject makes you wrong and evil for thinking that way. All you can do is say "Fine, then let me be evil" and pick which side you choose to be wrong on. I merely choose to be wrong and evil on the side of intergender wrestling. What you think the word "evil" means? I literally have no idea what you're on about.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 10, 2015 12:53:48 GMT -5
...And I'm of the belief that the only way it would work is if the woman is a babyface. Have the man be a chickenshit heel (like Seth Rollins or The Miz) that turns up the misogyny a bit leading up to the match, and the woman be a feminist underdog babyface. That's what I think as well. A heel is someone you want to see get beat up, the thing that needs to be avoided in an intergender match. We shouldn't be rooting for a man to beat up a woman. The woman is going to be the underdog and the underdog should be a face. This- any thoughts of a female heel working in intergender matches ever happening in a million years should have ended for good with #ItHappens. When you have Dixie Carter, the top heel who never got her comeuppance, up against Bully Ray, the top babyface who was out to give her comeuppance by putting her through a table- in a storyline that made it absolutely crystal clear, this storyline HAS TO END with "Bully Ray puts Dixie Carter through a table", no other ending to the storyline would make sense, and if Dixie Carter doesn't go through the table then she's officially a Karma Houdini forever and will never get any comeuppance for her evil...and despite all of those facts coming to pass and there being no other way out of the storyline except that, the response boiled down to "HOW...DARE...THEY.", it's pretty clear that no matter WHAT level of unspeakable evils the heel female does to the babyfaces, no matter who that heel female is- whether it's someone like a Dixie Carter or a monster heel like an Aloisia/Kong/Nia Jax, nothing would justify the endgame of the heel getting attacked.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 10, 2015 13:17:24 GMT -5
Only if the match is fulled with outlandish spots like pushing people through flaming tables. I don't see how they'll allow a man to beat the shit out of a women with punches in a match.
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Post by sonofblaine on Oct 10, 2015 14:02:39 GMT -5
That's the problem though, because the fact that it's a SIMULATED contact sport in sports ENTERTAINMENT basically also puts it in the same viewpoint as a fight scene in a movie or TV show- and as a result, no matter which side of the argument for intergender matches you're on, YOU ARE WRONG and you are evil for thinking that. Period. If you feel that intergender matches should be fine, you are asking to see a man who is sold as one of the greatest fighters in the world beat up a woman for your entertainment, and so you want to cheer domestic violence. If you feel intergender matches are wrong, then you are inherently saying that women should not be allowed to act in a staged fight scene against a man, and thus are also saying no woman should ever be allowed to star in an action movie. Whoo boy is this post over the top. No, a poster is not evil for not thinking wrestling doesn't need intergender matches. Evil. Honestly. Please man, take a breath. Anyway, it can be done and should be done. It's a show. It's a comic book. No reason it can't work as long as you treat it seriously and don't make every single match "heel man underestimates little lady face" as so many Indies fall into. Watch Candice Lerae over in PWG. Wrestles dudes almost exclusively. Thats how I see it, or even more relevant, a fighting game. WWE is essentially a show about a fighting game, with its weird colorful characters, and no-one bats an eye when Chun Li takes out Zangief. In a make believe world where biker necromancers, demon possessed cult leaders, and wrestling supermodels are the norm, there should be enough suspension of disbelief to say that if Rey Mysterio could beat anyone on the roster, Asuka or Bayley could too. If WWE could get past the people who see it as men beating on women and not fighter vs fighter, perhaps the return of a cruiserweight belt thats intergender. Thst way, you'd always get more realistic matchups.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 14:35:52 GMT -5
I'd like to see Eva Marie vs Brock Lesnar.
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Post by Old Baby on Oct 10, 2015 14:59:27 GMT -5
Could they? I dunno, but I hope not. It would totally kill any suspension of disbelief that there is left. Most women simply aren't physically capable of competing with men, and when the "combatants" are avoiding certain types of physical contact to avoid crossing any boundaries, it would undermine the illusion of matches being truly competitive and fully expose them as play fighting. I'm imagining Nikki Bella vs. Cesaro now and it's completely absurd.
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Post by Old Baby on Oct 10, 2015 15:05:27 GMT -5
That's the problem though, because the fact that it's a SIMULATED contact sport in sports ENTERTAINMENT basically also puts it in the same viewpoint as a fight scene in a movie or TV show- and as a result, no matter which side of the argument for intergender matches you're on, YOU ARE WRONG and you are evil for thinking that. Period. If you feel that intergender matches should be fine, you are asking to see a man who is sold as one of the greatest fighters in the world beat up a woman for your entertainment, and so you want to cheer domestic violence. If you feel intergender matches are wrong, then you are inherently saying that women should not be allowed to act in a staged fight scene against a man, and thus are also saying no woman should ever be allowed to star in an action movie. Whoo boy is this post over the top. No, a poster is not evil for not thinking wrestling doesn't need intergender matches. Evil. Honestly. Please man, take a breath. Anyway, it can be done and should be done. It's a show. It's a comic book. No reason it can't work as long as you treat it seriously and don't make every single match "heel man underestimates little lady face" as so many Indies fall into. Watch Candice Lerae over in PWG. Wrestles dudes almost exclusively. I don't think you really get what he's saying. He's saying that no matter where you fall on this issue, the other side is going to say that you are morally wrong for feeling that way. Either you're sexist for thinking it's inappropriate/ridiculous or you gt off on man-woman voilence for wanting to see it. That's exactly how discussions on this topic usually go, so he's exactly right.
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Post by RI Richmark on Oct 10, 2015 15:31:31 GMT -5
Back in 2007 Taylor Wilde (who was under WWE development contract at the time) wrestled Jamie Noble under a mask as a Japanese wrestler on WWE house shows. It never made it to television but I wonder if the WWE could pull off a similar gimmick, where a woman disguises herself in order to wrestle men.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 10, 2015 15:43:47 GMT -5
Could they? I dunno, but I hope not. It would totally kill any suspension of disbelief that there is left. Most women simply aren't physically capable of competing with men, and when the "combatants" are avoiding certain types of physical contact to avoid crossing any boundaries, it would undermine the illusion of matches being truly competitive and fully expose them as play fighting. I'm imagining Nikki Bella vs. Cesaro now and it's completely absurd. BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 15:52:23 GMT -5
Whoo boy is this post over the top. No, a poster is not evil for not thinking wrestling doesn't need intergender matches. Evil. Honestly. Please man, take a breath. Anyway, it can be done and should be done. It's a show. It's a comic book. No reason it can't work as long as you treat it seriously and don't make every single match "heel man underestimates little lady face" as so many Indies fall into. Watch Candice Lerae over in PWG. Wrestles dudes almost exclusively. I don't think you really get what he's saying. He's saying that no matter where you fall on this issue, the other side is going to say that you are morally wrong for feeling that way. Either you're sexist for thinking it's inappropriate/ridiculous or you gt off on man-woman voilence for wanting to see it. That's exactly how discussions on this topic usually go, so he's exactly right. Read his incredibly bizarre follow-up post and tell me if that still seems right to you.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 10, 2015 15:53:04 GMT -5
Could they? I dunno, but I hope not. It would totally kill any suspension of disbelief that there is left. Most women simply aren't physically capable of competing with men, and when the "combatants" are avoiding certain types of physical contact to avoid crossing any boundaries, it would undermine the illusion of matches being truly competitive and fully expose them as play fighting. I'm imagining Nikki Bella vs. Cesaro now and it's completely absurd. BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys. But it still ties into the same point that's been touched on a few times. When people want intergender matches, people assume it'll just be based on "muh workratez!" and it'll be just women like the Horsewomen/the SHIMMER signings/monstresses like Nia Jax who fight the men. That is likely not the case. If intergender happens, it'll happen less based on workrate and snowflakes and movez, and more likely based on whoever's the most popular or have dominated the women the most to justify giving it a try in the men's division- much like how, with the cruiserweights, they had their own division, but only the best of the best can break into the heavyweight division. Given storylines right now, that inherently means you'll be less likely to see "Charlotte and Becky Lynch go after the men's Tag Titles" and more likely to see "The Bella Twins decide the Divas' Revolution isn't enough for them and they're going after The New Day's belts", just because the Bellas have had the titles for long enough, and have been a allied tag team for long enough, that it's a far more likely endgame for WWE intergender wrestling. I don't think you really get what he's saying. He's saying that no matter where you fall on this issue, the other side is going to say that you are morally wrong for feeling that way. Either you're sexist for thinking it's inappropriate/ridiculous or you gt off on man-woman voilence for wanting to see it. That's exactly how discussions on this topic usually go, so he's exactly right. Read his incredibly bizarre follow-up post and tell me if that still seems right to you. And he DID get my answer there, and you're just not accepting it. He said it as well as I could possibly say it. Do NOT go into it further.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 15:57:20 GMT -5
BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys. But it still ties into the same point that's been touched on a few times. When people want intergender matches, people assume it'll just be based on "muh workratez!" and it'll be just women like the Horsewomen/the SHIMMER signings/monstresses like Nia Jax who fight the men. That is likely not the case. If intergender happens, it'll happen less based on workrate and snowflakes and movez, and more likely based on whoever's the most popular or have dominated the women the most to justify giving it a try in the men's division- much like how, with the cruiserweights, they had their own division, but only the best of the best can break into the heavyweight division. Given storylines right now, that inherently means you'll be less likely to see "Charlotte and Becky Lynch go after the men's Tag Titles" and more likely to see "The Bella Twins decide the Divas' Revolution isn't enough for them and they're going after The New Day's belts", just because the Bellas have had the titles for long enough, and have been a allied tag team for long enough, that it's a far more likely endgame for WWE intergender wrestling. Read his incredibly bizarre follow-up post and tell me if that still seems right to you. And he DID get my answer there, and you're just not accepting it. He said it as well as I could possibly say it. Do NOT go into it further. ...I'm not exactly sure why you think k you can tell me what to do? I'm going to leave this thread now because I feel like people think I'm insulting people when I'm really just incredibly confused. If that's the point he was making, he worded it terribly. I'm not being intentionally obtuse, he worded it badly. Edit: Wait, found the part I was missing. I see it now.
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Post by Old Baby on Oct 10, 2015 15:58:31 GMT -5
Could they? I dunno, but I hope not. It would totally kill any suspension of disbelief that there is left. Most women simply aren't physically capable of competing with men, and when the "combatants" are avoiding certain types of physical contact to avoid crossing any boundaries, it would undermine the illusion of matches being truly competitive and fully expose them as play fighting. I'm imagining Nikki Bella vs. Cesaro now and it's completely absurd. BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys. I don't believe that Rey can compete with the bigger wrestlers and never did. But, you're illustrating my point exactly by pointing out that the most amazonian of females could be believable against small males. So, what have you done for women by throwing them into the same division with men when the only men they could realistically be competitive with are the small ones? What happens when you put Charlotte against Lesnar or Big Show? Let's apply this logic to another sport and take Serena Williams, the most dominant women's tennis player for nearly two decades, and put her in the men's division for the cause of equality. Then, let's watch her get knocked out in the first few rounds of every tournament because she doesn't have the speed or power to compete with the top ranked men's tennis players in the world. What have you accomplished? There's a reason legitimate sports have a men's and women's division and recognize the accomplishments of each separately.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 10, 2015 16:01:10 GMT -5
BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys. But it still ties into the same point that's been touched on a few times. When people want intergender matches, people assume it'll just be based on "muh workratez!" and it'll be just women like the Horsewomen/the SHIMMER signings/monstresses like Nia Jax who fight the men. That is likely not the case. If intergender happens, it'll happen less based on workrate and snowflakes and movez, and more likely based on whoever's the most popular or have dominated the women the most to justify giving it a try in the men's division- much like how, with the cruiserweights, they had their own division, but only the best of the best can break into the heavyweight division. Given storylines right now, that inherently means you'll be less likely to see "Charlotte and Becky Lynch go after the men's Tag Titles" and more likely to see "The Bella Twins decide the Divas' Revolution isn't enough for them and they're going after The New Day's belts", just because the Bellas have had the titles for long enough, and have been a allied tag team for long enough, that it's a far more likely endgame for WWE intergender wrestling. But none of that was brought up by the OP (despite the fact that I'm annoyed at "PC Crusader" crap in said OP). It was just if the E could ever have intergender matches again. It's possible, other indies do it fine without any "suspension of disbelief" issues. They have a trainer that was the cornerstone of this for Chikara, a company FAR more PG than WWE. All that worrying about how the E is booking it is irrelevant.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 10, 2015 16:02:11 GMT -5
BS. If you can believe guys like Miz and Rey can compete with some of the bigger wrestlers, then it's not that unbelievable for a Charlotte or a Nia Jax to do the same with some of the smaller guys. I don't believe that Rey can compete with the bigger wrestlers and never did. But, you're illustrating my point exactly by pointing out that the most amazonian of females could be believable against small males. So, what have you done for women by throwing them into the same division with men when the only men they could realistically be competitive with are the small ones? What happens when you put Charlotte against Lesnar or Big Show? Let's apply this logic to another sport and take Serena Williams, the most dominant women's tennis player for nearly two decades, and put her in the men's division for the cause of equality. Then, let's watch her get knocked out in the first few rounds of every tournament because she doesn't have the speed or power to compete with the top ranked men's tennis players in the world. What have you accomplished? There's a reason legitimate sports have a men's and women's division and recognize the accomplishments of each separately. And yet... She and plenty of others do a-ok in intergender doubles matches. I only brought up the smaller guys to help ease fans into the concept, nothing more. I've seen women vs big guy matches, even some where the woman wins. I don't mind one bit.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Oct 10, 2015 16:03:51 GMT -5
Champion vs Champion, Finn Balor vs Bayley. This can only work if it's a two out of t'ree falls match on T'ursday night Smackdown.
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Post by Old Baby on Oct 10, 2015 16:19:58 GMT -5
I don't believe that Rey can compete with the bigger wrestlers and never did. But, you're illustrating my point exactly by pointing out that the most amazonian of females could be believable against small males. So, what have you done for women by throwing them into the same division with men when the only men they could realistically be competitive with are the small ones? What happens when you put Charlotte against Lesnar or Big Show? Let's apply this logic to another sport and take Serena Williams, the most dominant women's tennis player for nearly two decades, and put her in the men's division for the cause of equality. Then, let's watch her get knocked out in the first few rounds of every tournament because she doesn't have the speed or power to compete with the top ranked men's tennis players in the world. What have you accomplished? There's a reason legitimate sports have a men's and women's division and recognize the accomplishments of each separately. And yet... She and plenty of others do a-ok in intergender doubles matches. I only brought up the smaller guys to help ease fans into the concept, nothing more. I've seen women vs big guy matches, even some where the woman wins. I don't mind one bit. Being competitive in a doubles match is completely different from being competitive in singles matches. Martina Navratilova captured her last doubles title at 50 years old long after she was no longer competitive in singles tennis. I've also seen entertaining intergender matches in places like Chikara, but the fact that I found them entertaining didn't make them any less unrealistic or improbable. Your argument is based on the fact that you like them and that's fine, but it really doesn't change the underlying reasons why people like me don't.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 10, 2015 16:30:59 GMT -5
And yet... She and plenty of others do a-ok in intergender doubles matches. I only brought up the smaller guys to help ease fans into the concept, nothing more. I've seen women vs big guy matches, even some where the woman wins. I don't mind one bit. Being competitive in a doubles match is completely different from being competitive in singles matches. Martina Navratilova captured her last doubles title at 50 years old long after she was no longer competitive in singles tennis. I've also seen entertaining intergender matches in places like Chikara, but the fact that I found them entertaining didn't make them any less unrealistic or improbable. Your argument is based on the fact that you like them and that's fine, but it really doesn't change the underlying reasons why people like me don't. My argument is simple; that your argument is based on your biases, nothing more. And yet, you keep trying to rationalize it and rationalize it like stacking a house of cards. I mean, you're talking about improbability and a lack of realism in a sport that regular plays with both. Especially the WWE.
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pegasuswarrior
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Oct 10, 2015 16:38:35 GMT -5
Cesaro took on his girlfriend Sara Del Rey in CHIKARA. +11111111111
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Post by cageking666 on Oct 10, 2015 16:47:47 GMT -5
Everyone on The View not named Whoopi Goldberg would be mad when the man fights back. They really don't represent women. Most women are able to think logically Like we said. Whoopi Goldberg as voice of reason
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