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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 13, 2015 2:57:18 GMT -5
They've really made a lot of progress with Reigns in the past several weeks where they've booked him as a badass who doesn't need to cut long promos to get his message across. If they continue that path for him, he'll be fine. If they continue to try to shoehorn him into a John Cena role, he'll get more of what he got tonight. Some people just aren't lengthy promo guys. Reigns might evolve into that role, but he's clearly not there now. They need to stop forcing it. It's like we're in the friend zone with Reigns, and that's all we want to be, but Reigns keeps trying to get in our pants. Then we're like NO then he waits a little while, acts like like the nice guy we like being friends with, then tries again. Then we're like NO and so on and so forth. This Reigns push is like Kobe Bryant in a Colorado Hotel Room....
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Oct 13, 2015 3:55:12 GMT -5
It's not the death of kayfabe, it's the evolution of pop cultural tastes. I may be getting a bit deep into the social psychology here but what the heck.
Audiences loved Hogan in the 80s because he was a living breathing embodiment of Americana and patriotism. Audiences loved Austin in 99 because he was the wish fulfillment of sticking it to your boss, for everybody who was dissatisfied with their job. Audiences loved Rock in 2000 because he was the counterpoint to Austin- for those who weren't dissatisfied, but wanted to be the coolest guy in the room, the centre of attention, the jock or popular kid.
Cena hasn't connected the same because he doesn't really relate to anybody like that, he's fantastic for kids because kids take stuff at face value a lot more readily than adults, but, I think in large part due to the fact he's written as a hypocrite, his "hero who always does the right thing and is respectful and loyal" stuff doesn't resonate with many people. It should do, people aren't complete jaded nihilists they generally want the good guy to win in all other forms of media. But Cena's not written as the character he's supposed to be. He's a "hero who always does the right thing, except when that's a bit inconvenient but we'll gloss over that, and he's only respectful of anybody who can't beat him, and isn't really that loyal to his friends." that...doesn't resonate with anybody, because who wants to relate to a hypocrite and go "yes, that guy is just like me"? He's like this strange mix of Hogan and Rock that results in neither.
Look at Punk- he was connecting with a lot of people pre-HHH because a part of society these days is based around people desperately wanting to be able to say or do whatever they want, screw the consequences, and be successful for it. It's why the internet crowd loved him, internet anonymity means it is much easier to say what you like without it hurting you, just like Punk on TV. It's the same wish fulfillment as Austin- wanting to see someone do what you wish you were allowed or able to do. Look at Daniel Bryan- until his injury he was hugely popular because again, a lot of society today, especially post-recession, want to see hard work rewarded and want to see people like them judged on their merits, want struggle and sacrifice to lead to something good- an aspect of the Hero's Journey found in popular stories for centuries, but particularly relevant to the audience in that moment, enabling the rise of Bryan. It's the same wish fulfillment as The Rock- wanting to see someone do or be what you hope that you can be.
Roman Reigns is a weird hybrid of Rock and Cena. They want the cool-dude smug smartass of the Rock, but also the easygoing "isn't he such a swell dude" heroics & witticism of Cena. So instead it comes off as "look at this awesome sexy cool badass who you want to be.....but who is such a paragon of heroism that he is also everything you SHOULD want to be.". Except the message that comes with that, with the amount of highlighting you have to do to promote that, is "you can't be someone this cool". So people either disagree, or resent him. He's not the "you wish you could do this" type he's the "you wish you could be him" type, but people who relate to upstanding pure-good heroes won't relate to the swaggering cockiness, and people who want to be the "screw you I'm awesome" cool badass won't want the "Look how great he is! Why can't you be so heroic?" part of Roman, because they'll resent it. The 2 sides of it are incompatible, just as Cena's own blend of the same is, only difference is if it was on a scale Cena seems more Hogan and Roman seems more Rock.
If you've made it to here, congrats on making it through the self-indulgent waffle of someone who cares far too much about story-writing.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 13, 2015 5:51:35 GMT -5
The inmates are running in the asylum. The crowd has got to smart thanks to the internet and can now dictate what they want. Fans have always had a say in who they want and don't want and it usually backfires when a promoter sets out to ignore the will of the fans. Look at the AWA, fans wanted Hogan but Verne preferred Bockwinkel so hogan goes to the WWF and the fans follow, fast forward to the mid 90s, Vince wants Lex Luger, the fans want Bret and the fans win, he then fights the same battle to put Shawn on top as a face, only desperation makes him change his plans and consider Austin as a top guy. WCW dies, ECW dies and the face of the company becomes Triple H, he goes over everyone the fans want and the audience contracts as a result no matter who they put him over because people don't want him to be the greatest, the strongest, the equal of Flair but once again Vince doesn't listen until he has no choice. Vince wants to dictate who the fans should want and people are wise to it, that isn't the internet's fault, that's all on him for being so painfully blatant about it all, for making his will clear on commentary every time they talk about his guys, for booking them to win things without crowd support. Reign has burned through most of the things he can win without getting the main belt, only impressing on paper because the storylines he's been in are sub par, it's all on them because they never gave him time or the booking needed to get the fans on board before they set him off on this journey to the top, instead trying to make him stand taller by cutting down those around him.
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Vern
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Post by Vern on Oct 13, 2015 6:18:15 GMT -5
Diesel's run on top is usually considered a failure. That was before the internet era and would be a pretty good example, touching on everything said in the OP. Nash's push at the time is very similar to Reigns', but even then the fans weren't really into it. Vince ended up putting the title back in the hands of smaller, far better wrestlers for the next year until he tried and failed again with Sid.
The big difference is today there would be a far bigger and quicker backlash if Vince tried to give Reigns Diesel's year long reign the year starting his rookie year in the company. The fans shit on Diesel's reign (and the entire state of WWE at the time) and tuned out. Vince knows that would have happened again so he did hold back, but he's still trying to get what he wants.
During Reigns' rookie year you could replace Reigns with Diesel, Bryan with Bret and Punk with HBK and look back 20 years to see some striking similarities. The difference is Bret and Shawn had the Steroid trial to scare Vince into giving them their pushes, and the WWF was far, far better off in the long run for it. If that trial had been coming up in 2014 rather than 1994 we would have gotten a Punk vs Bryan Ironman match as the WrestleMania main event. Instead Punk lost his smile, took his ball and went home.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 13, 2015 7:20:29 GMT -5
Diesel's run on top is usually considered a failure. That was before the internet era and would be a pretty good example, touching on everything said in the OP. Nash's push at the time is very similar to Reigns', but even then the fans weren't really into it. Vince ended up putting the title back in the hands of smaller, far better wrestlers for the next year until he tried and failed again with Sid. The big difference is today there would be a far bigger and quicker backlash if Vince tried to give Reigns Diesel's year long reign the year starting his rookie year in the company. The fans shit on Diesel's reign (and the entire state of WWE at the time) and tuned out. Vince knows that would have happened again so he did hold back, but he's still trying to get what he wants. During Reigns' rookie year you could replace Reigns with Diesel, Bryan with Bret and Punk with HBK and look back 20 years to see some striking similarities. The difference is Bret and Shawn had the Steroid trial to scare Vince into giving them their pushes, and the WWF was far, far better off in the long run for it. If that trial had been coming up in 2014 rather than 1994 we would have gotten a Punk vs Bryan Ironman match as the WrestleMania main event. Instead Punk lost his smile, took his ball and went home. Shawn's main event push was as much a '*bleep* the fans' push as Diesels or Reigns, people forget that because of his workrate, no-one was clamoring to see him as a main event face but it happened anyway, and to compare him to Punk is ridiculous as the company was never booked to make Punk happy to that extent. Punk left at a time the company clearly didn't need him, because he was tired, legitimately hurt and ill, Shawn lost his smile when the company needed him, because he didn't want to lose a title, not to Bret, not to anyone, only finding it when he knew he wouldn't be expected to job and could begin the title chase again.
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Post by joeiscool on Oct 13, 2015 7:22:22 GMT -5
I think it shows how diverse WWE's audience is. 2 weeks ago he was the most over person on the card. Last night not so much.
It's almost like when WWE would go to Canada, and Stone Cold would get booed.
I also think it shows how stubborn smarks are. Despite Roman not being pushed to the moon, having a ton of good matches, and improving on the mic, people just wanna boo him...
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 13, 2015 7:32:39 GMT -5
I also think it shows how stubborn smarks are. Despite Roman not being pushed to the moon, having a ton of good matches, and improving on the mic, people just wanna boo him... I've said it at other times, but for some it's just impossible to wave away the "golden child" stigma once it's been put out into the open. Short of actively BURYING the guy and/or simply pushing someone else, I'm not sure there's anything WWE can do to change that.
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Post by Ryushinku on Oct 13, 2015 7:49:05 GMT -5
They've really made a lot of progress with Reigns in the past several weeks where they've booked him as a badass who doesn't need to cut long promos to get his message across. If they continue that path for him, he'll be fine. If they continue to try to shoehorn him into a John Cena role, he'll get more of what he got tonight. Some people just aren't lengthy promo guys. Reigns might evolve into that role, but he's clearly not there now. They need to stop forcing it. I think that's very well put, yeah. They'd been keeping it simple in and out of the ring and it's been working. A bit of a relapse with this.
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Vern
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Post by Vern on Oct 13, 2015 8:14:23 GMT -5
Diesel's run on top is usually considered a failure. That was before the internet era and would be a pretty good example, touching on everything said in the OP. Nash's push at the time is very similar to Reigns', but even then the fans weren't really into it. Vince ended up putting the title back in the hands of smaller, far better wrestlers for the next year until he tried and failed again with Sid. The big difference is today there would be a far bigger and quicker backlash if Vince tried to give Reigns Diesel's year long reign the year starting his rookie year in the company. The fans shit on Diesel's reign (and the entire state of WWE at the time) and tuned out. Vince knows that would have happened again so he did hold back, but he's still trying to get what he wants. During Reigns' rookie year you could replace Reigns with Diesel, Bryan with Bret and Punk with HBK and look back 20 years to see some striking similarities. The difference is Bret and Shawn had the Steroid trial to scare Vince into giving them their pushes, and the WWF was far, far better off in the long run for it. If that trial had been coming up in 2014 rather than 1994 we would have gotten a Punk vs Bryan Ironman match as the WrestleMania main event. Instead Punk lost his smile, took his ball and went home. Shawn's main event push was as much a '*bleep* the fans' push as Diesels or Reigns, people forget that because of his workrate, no-one was clamoring to see him as a main event face but it happened anyway, and to compare him to Punk is ridiculous as the company was never booked to make Punk happy to that extent. Punk left at a time the company clearly didn't need him, because he was tired, legitimately hurt and ill, Shawn lost his smile when the company needed him, because he didn't want to lose a title, not to Bret, not to anyone, only finding it when he knew he wouldn't be expected to job and could begin the title chase again. I'm not making comparisons between HBK and Punk's personalites or why they left. I'm comparing their placement on the roster and what WWE's knee-jerk reactions would have been. If Reigns had been given the Diesel push and title run it wouldn't be any sort of stretch to see Punk & Bryan as 2014 WWE's answer to 1994's HBK & Bret respectively. I'm sure I'm nowhere near the first to make that connection.
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Post by joeiscool on Oct 13, 2015 9:34:39 GMT -5
I also think it shows how stubborn smarks are. Despite Roman not being pushed to the moon, having a ton of good matches, and improving on the mic, people just wanna boo him... I've said it at other times, but for some it's just impossible to wave away the "golden child" stigma once it's been put out into the open. Short of actively BURYING the guy and/or simply pushing someone else, I'm not sure there's anything WWE can do to change that. However, I'm sure if he turned heel...
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Post by Cyno on Oct 13, 2015 10:16:28 GMT -5
They've really made a lot of progress with Reigns in the past several weeks where they've booked him as a badass who doesn't need to cut long promos to get his message across. If they continue that path for him, he'll be fine. If they continue to try to shoehorn him into a John Cena role, he'll get more of what he got tonight. Some people just aren't lengthy promo guys. Reigns might evolve into that role, but he's clearly not there now. They need to stop forcing it. It's like we're in the friend zone with Reigns, and that's all we want to be, but Reigns keeps trying to get in our pants. Then we're like NO then he waits a little while, acts like like the nice guy we like being friends with, then tries again. Then we're like NO and so on and so forth. That's the perfect analogy.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Oct 13, 2015 11:18:18 GMT -5
I've said it at other times, but for some it's just impossible to wave away the "golden child" stigma once it's been put out into the open. Short of actively BURYING the guy and/or simply pushing someone else, I'm not sure there's anything WWE can do to change that. However, I'm sure if he turned heel... That's exactly what they should do in my opinon. Turn him heel. Turn him into a rarely speaking heel world beater and when the fans start to cheer for him run with it and keep running with it until the fans get bored again. Or go back in time, look at how popular Reigns was as a member of the Shield and just let him keep that character.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Oct 13, 2015 12:19:52 GMT -5
The inmates are running in the asylum. The crowd has got to smart thanks to the internet and can now dictate what they want. I want Paige cosplaying as Belle from Beauty and the Beast. MAKE IT HAPPEN, INTERNET!
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Oct 13, 2015 12:24:35 GMT -5
The inmates are running in the asylum. The crowd has got to smart thanks to the internet and can now dictate what they want. That's a good thing then. They shouldn't have to dictate to the WWE. The WWE should be giving their customers what they want like every other company in the world does.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 13, 2015 12:31:14 GMT -5
I also think it shows how stubborn smarks are. Despite Roman not being pushed to the moon, having a ton of good matches, and improving on the mic, people just wanna boo him... I've said it at other times, but for some it's just impossible to wave away the "golden child" stigma once it's been put out into the open. Short of actively BURYING the guy and/or simply pushing someone else, I'm not sure there's anything WWE can do to change that. Yeah, they had to outright destroy Ryback for a year before people were like, "yeah. let him have another shot"
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 13, 2015 12:33:51 GMT -5
However, I'm sure if he turned heel... That's exactly what they should do in my opinon. Turn him heel. Turn him into a rarely speaking heel world beater and when the fans start to cheer for him run with it and keep running with it until the fans get bored again. Or go back in time, look at how popular Reigns was as a member of the Shield and just let him keep that character. Reigns is in a weird place with a good portion of the fanbase where nearly EVERYTHING will be seen as a plot on WWE's part to rehabilitate his image, and those fans are dead set against being "tricked" like that in any way. Even a firing would be seen as a ploy to drum up sympathy for an inevitable return. Dude is probably going to need a multi-year run in a place like NJPW to get a shot at forgiveness and get the stigma of "Vince's Pet Project" off of him.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Oct 13, 2015 12:39:37 GMT -5
That's exactly what they should do in my opinon. Turn him heel. Turn him into a rarely speaking heel world beater and when the fans start to cheer for him run with it and keep running with it until the fans get bored again. Or go back in time, look at how popular Reigns was as a member of the Shield and just let him keep that character. Reigns is in a weird place with a good portion of the fanbase where nearly EVERYTHING will be seen as a plot on WWE's part to rehabilitate his image, and those fans are dead set against being "tricked" like that in any way. Even a firing would be seen as a ploy to drum up sympathy for an inevitable return. Dude is probably going to need a multi-year run in a place like NJPW to get a shot at forgiveness and get the stigma of "Vince's Pet Project" off of him. Maybe give him a midcard title and see how well he does.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 12:40:19 GMT -5
Things like this is exactly why there are heel and face turns. If the crowd reacts differently and you see there's a consistent problem you turn the wrestler. Boom, it works. Once they turn Reigns he can have a major heel run and do very well. The quicker they turn him the quicker the fans start liking him.
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Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,072
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 13, 2015 12:45:24 GMT -5
Things like this is exactly why there are heel and face turns. If the crowd reacts differently and you see there's a consistent problem you turn the wrestler. Boom, it works. Once they turn Reigns he can have a major heel run and do very well. The quicker they turn him the quicker the fans start liking him. He seems to do alright until he hits a place like Montreal or Chicago, though. He could probably win over Montreal after a heel turn, but Chicago isn't EVER accepting him.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 13, 2015 13:02:48 GMT -5
Things like this is exactly why there are heel and face turns. If the crowd reacts differently and you see there's a consistent problem you turn the wrestler. Boom, it works. Once they turn Reigns he can have a major heel run and do very well. The quicker they turn him the quicker the fans start liking him. The thing is he's a pretty good face. It's very fickle of fans tho let's turn him heel so we can then cheer him and defeat the whole damn purpose. It's the same way people have ideas of a Cena turn. If Cena was to ever turn heel i'll keep his character exactly the same because people boo him the way he is now anyway. Any big changes and everybody is going to love him.
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