What I've Learned From New Day

[celtics543]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this ever since watching the Table for 3 featuring the New Day. They are, almost without a doubt, the best thing going on in wrestling today. They are entertaining, can work a match, and are way over with crowds. The part that kills me is that this is never where they were intended to be, they were supposed to be babyface character from day 1, and despite some hiccups eventually got over as heels primarily because creative just threw up their hands and let the three of them do what they wanted. Xavier pretty much flat out says during Table for 3 that creative was going to give up on them and the three had to really argue to get what they wanted, which is what turned it around completely.

They took Kofi, Big E, and Xavier Woods, who were all boring as vanilla pudding by themselves and let them actually be themselves and now they're the most over people in the company. How does creative not understand that maybe letting guys be themselves isn't the way to go? Get rid of the people responsible for character development and promo scripting and let the guys do it themselves. If the guy can't do a promo then put a manager with him that can or team him up with a guy that can. I never thought Kofi would deliver an exciting promo but he's been excellent in the New Day. He may have been the most stale act on the card and now he's fantastic, imagine what other guys could do if they were given free reign. Someone like Sheamus, Orton, Caesaro, Reigns, or even lower card guys like Ryder, Axel, Fandango, or Slater could turn it around completely if they were put in charge of their own characters.

Isn't that how the Attitude era began, with guys having more input on characters and getting to be themselves? For a company that trumpets the success of an era every chance they get, they certainly do everything they can to never have another one. It's not about the writing or the storylines or the even the actual wrestling skill of the performer, it's about letting them be a character that they believe in and understand. The New Day is over because that's those guys with the volume turned way up, they aren't playing a character other than themselves. Let other guys do that and a boom period will be here soon.

I guess what I'm asking is who else, if given free reign to develop their own character and write their own promos, could be way more over than they currently are? And conversely, what guys need to have promos written for them and would completely flop if they had to start writing their own?

[kidkamikaze10]

I've learned from New Day is that they can make anyone they interact with more entertaining.

From Team Bad, to Seth Rollins, to random media personalities.


THAT makes them an asset to the E.

[tigermaskxxxvii]

Oct 14, 2015 13:07:12 GMT -5 celtics543 said:

Ok, so I've been thinking about this ever since watching the Table for 3 featuring the New Day. They are, almost without a doubt, the best thing going on in wrestling today. They are entertaining, can work a match, and are way over with crowds. The part that kills me is that this is never where they were intended to be, they were supposed to be babyface character from day 1, and despite some hiccups eventually got over as heels primarily because creative just threw up their hands and let the three of them do what they wanted. Xavier pretty much flat out says during Table for 3 that creative was going to give up on them and the three had to really argue to get what they wanted, which is what turned it around completely.

They took Kofi, Big E, and Xavier Woods, who were all boring as vanilla pudding by themselves and let them actually be themselves and now they're the most over people in the company. How does creative not understand that maybe letting guys be themselves isn't the way to go? Get rid of the people responsible for character development and promo scripting and let the guys do it themselves. If the guy can't do a promo then put a manager with him that can or team him up with a guy that can. I never thought Kofi would deliver an exciting promo but he's been excellent in the New Day. He may have been the most stale act on the card and now he's fantastic, imagine what other guys could do if they were given free reign. Someone like Sheamus, Orton, Caesaro, Reigns, or even lower card guys like Ryder, Axel, Fandango, or Slater could turn it around completely if they were put in charge of their own characters.

Isn't that how the Attitude era began, with guys having more input on characters and getting to be themselves? For a company that trumpets the success of an era every chance they get, they certainly do everything they can to never have another one. It's not about the writing or the storylines or the even the actual wrestling skill of the performer, it's about letting them be a character that they believe in and understand. The New Day is over because that's those guys with the volume turned way up, they aren't playing a character other than themselves. Let other guys do that and a boom period will be here soon.

I guess what I'm asking is who else, if given free reign to develop their own character and write their own promos, could be way more over than they currently are? And conversely, what guys need to have promos written for them and would completely flop if they had to start writing their own?

I wanna see an African-American wrestler do a Ned Flanders gimmick who goes by the nickname "Black Vanilla".

To the point at hand, the problem with today versus the Attitude Era isn't TV-14 vs TV-PG and whether or not to tell more salacious stories. What the Attitude Era (especially at the beginning) was if something got over, then let it flourish. Instead of quashing it because it got over on its own without a lot of help from WWE's "braintrust". And the talent was given a certain amount of creative autonomy. Of course you can't give absolute creative autonomy as that can cause the show to go off the rails. But give the talent a chance to pitch in a bit more creatively and they'll be a bit more engaged in their jobs and give the fans a product they'll care about because it'll be more fun.

[celtics543]

Oct 14, 2015 15:13:59 GMT -5 tigermaskxxxvii said:

Oct 14, 2015 13:07:12 GMT -5 celtics543 said:

Ok, so I've been thinking about this ever since watching the Table for 3 featuring the New Day. They are, almost without a doubt, the best thing going on in wrestling today. They are entertaining, can work a match, and are way over with crowds. The part that kills me is that this is never where they were intended to be, they were supposed to be babyface character from day 1, and despite some hiccups eventually got over as heels primarily because creative just threw up their hands and let the three of them do what they wanted. Xavier pretty much flat out says during Table for 3 that creative was going to give up on them and the three had to really argue to get what they wanted, which is what turned it around completely.

They took Kofi, Big E, and Xavier Woods, who were all boring as vanilla pudding by themselves and let them actually be themselves and now they're the most over people in the company. How does creative not understand that maybe letting guys be themselves isn't the way to go? Get rid of the people responsible for character development and promo scripting and let the guys do it themselves. If the guy can't do a promo then put a manager with him that can or team him up with a guy that can. I never thought Kofi would deliver an exciting promo but he's been excellent in the New Day. He may have been the most stale act on the card and now he's fantastic, imagine what other guys could do if they were given free reign. Someone like Sheamus, Orton, Caesaro, Reigns, or even lower card guys like Ryder, Axel, Fandango, or Slater could turn it around completely if they were put in charge of their own characters.

Isn't that how the Attitude era began, with guys having more input on characters and getting to be themselves? For a company that trumpets the success of an era every chance they get, they certainly do everything they can to never have another one. It's not about the writing or the storylines or the even the actual wrestling skill of the performer, it's about letting them be a character that they believe in and understand. The New Day is over because that's those guys with the volume turned way up, they aren't playing a character other than themselves. Let other guys do that and a boom period will be here soon.

I guess what I'm asking is who else, if given free reign to develop their own character and write their own promos, could be way more over than they currently are? And conversely, what guys need to have promos written for them and would completely flop if they had to start writing their own?

I wanna see an African-American wrestler do a Ned Flanders gimmick who goes by the nickname "Black Vanilla".

To the point at hand, the problem with today versus the Attitude Era isn't TV-14 vs TV-PG and whether or not to tell more salacious stories. What the Attitude Era (especially at the beginning) was if something got over, then let it flourish. Instead of quashing it because it got over on its own without a lot of help from WWE's "braintrust". And the talent was given a certain amount of creative autonomy. Of course you can't give absolute creative autonomy as that can cause the show to go off the rails. But give the talent a chance to pitch in a bit more creatively and they'll be a bit more engaged in their jobs and give the fans a product they'll care about because it'll be more fun.

Right, everything I was trying to say you just said much more efficiently. It's not the over the top storylines it's letting the guys and girls be characters that are extension of themselves, not something that they don't understand.

[Sicho100]

I feel like there are two big issues driving the creative incompetence:

1) Vince is desperately looking for the next Rock. And he will test a bunch of people out for a short period of time, and if they don't immediately bring this great boom, he tosses them aside and decides that they're worthless. Guys on the lower end of the card, especially, get f***ed because of this. Heath Slater, for example, is not someone I see as ever being a top guy, much less on The Rock's level. But neither was the Honky Tonk Man. Not being one of the biggest stars ever doesn't mean that you are useless and can't make money, which is what seems to be Vince's mindset.

2) Vince has gotten so much smoke blown up his ass for years about how he is such a creative genius and that nobody can make stars like Vince can, that he now thinks that he needs to imbue his roster with the Vince Genius in order for them to get over. He has been constantly told that he is the reason that Hogan, Austin, and Rock became superstars, despite the fact that Hulkamania was running wild in the AWA; "Stone Cold" Steve Austin got over rather than The Ringmaster; and it wasn't "The Blue Chipper" Rocky Maivia, but The Rock, that became a star. For years, Vince has been told that he is the one responsible for the stars, when they only actually became stars when he got out of their way. And so, in searching for that next Rock, he decides to micromanage everything, thinking that only Vince McMahon can create the next Rock, even though if he felt that way in the late-90s, he wouldn't have gotten the first Rock.

[Pushed to the Moon]

How many of the most successful characters were actually created by the writers? Stone Cold was created by Steve Austin. The character and all the catchphrases were created by him after their original plans sucked. The Rock was only allowed to show his own personality after the crowd hated what "creative" came up with. Cena injected his own personality with his love of rap (and then his 6 year old's sense of humour) and became huge.

I wonder what Reigns would actually like his character to be because I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to cut 10 minute long exposition filled promos and get whatted to death and the crowd doesn't want to see it either. They just want him shut up and punch people.

Edit: Just what the person above me said!

[Sicho100]

Oct 14, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5 Pushed to the Moon said:

How many of the most successful characters were actually created by the writers? Stone Cold was created by Steve Austin. The character and all the catchphrases were created by him after their original plans sucked. The Rock was only allowed to show his own personality after the crowd hated what "creative" came up with. Cena injected his own personality with his love of rap (and then his 6 year old's sense of humour) and became huge.

Honestly, there is only one character that immediately jumps out at me as being devised by Vince/Creative and becoming a top level guy: The Undertaker. And, though I'm sure some would say it's just my anti-Vince bias, I feel like that success is more due to the talent of Mark Calaway and less the character (I mean "Zombie Mortician" is a pretty dumb gimmick).

[fw91]

damn, beaten to the "vanilla pudding" comment

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2015 17:47:34 GMT -5 Sicho100 said:

Oct 14, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5 Pushed to the Moon said:

How many of the most successful characters were actually created by the writers? Stone Cold was created by Steve Austin. The character and all the catchphrases were created by him after their original plans sucked. The Rock was only allowed to show his own personality after the crowd hated what "creative" came up with. Cena injected his own personality with his love of rap (and then his 6 year old's sense of humour) and became huge.

Honestly, there is only one character that immediately jumps out at me as being devised by Vince/Creative and becoming a top level guy: The Undertaker. And, though I'm sure some would say it's just my anti-Vince bias, I feel like that success is more due to the talent of Mark Calaway and less the character (I mean "Zombie Mortician" is a pretty dumb gimmick).

Creative is kind of a thankless job in that sense. The Undertaker is probably a gimmick that would have died on the vine if not for Mark Calloway but I don't know if Mark Calloway would have had the career that he did without the Undertaker character either. The big difference between then and now is that WWE at least committed full bore to the concept, the power of the Urn, Paul Bearer, inventing new matches like the Casket match. As absurd as it was, there were a lot of dynamics to the character that made him stand out from everything around him. It's a lot different now where we have guys like Bray Wyatt who perform in a way unlike anyone in years and yet they somehow find a way to make him come across like everyone else because his feuds follow the same template. Heel picks a fight with babyface for no tangible reason, and they fight and they fight and they fight until you're sick of it, it never goes out on a limb to be about anything.

I think there's truth to Vince McMahon's genius, he's never been perfect but when he was on he was on. He was paired up with a complete dunderhead for one of their hottest runs ever and he somehow presented his shitty ideas as something exciting and fun and throughout the 2000s you can almost watch his quality of work slowly drop off before our eyes, what creative force ever sustains their creative juices for as long as Vince has been around? It's not shocking that he's too stubborn to know when he's out of touch. What musician ever stops making music just because they've run out of tricks? He's a wrestling promoter by trade, so what else is he gonna do? And if he retired today he'd be retiring a loser, I mean, not really, but in his mind I'm sure. I have zero faith that he can figure this out, he's developed way too many crutches and he's way too set in his ways to identify what he's doing wrong, but I don't think he's gonna give up unless he's tragically forced to or if he can finally pull an ace out of his sleeve and reinstate his "genius" cred.

[mattyy]

Oct 14, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5 Pushed to the Moon said:

How many of the most successful characters were actually created by the writers? Stone Cold was created by Steve Austin. The character and all the catchphrases were created by him after their original plans sucked. The Rock was only allowed to show his own personality after the crowd hated what "creative" came up with. Cena injected his own personality with his love of rap (and then his 6 year old's sense of humour) and became huge.

I wonder what Reigns would actually like his character to be because I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to cut 10 minute long exposition filled promos and get whatted to death and the crowd doesn't want to see it either. They just want him shut up and punch people.

Edit: Just what the person above me said!

Wasn't there a Roman promo on Cena back last summer where he actually cut a really good promo? I know the crowd was chanting "Lets Go Cena/Cena Sucks" and he responded with "When I'm in this ring, you're damn right Cena sucks"

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Oct 14, 2015 17:47:34 GMT -5 Sicho100 said:

Honestly, there is only one character that immediately jumps out at me as being devised by Vince/Creative and becoming a top level guy: The Undertaker. And, though I'm sure some would say it's just my anti-Vince bias, I feel like that success is more due to the talent of Mark Calaway and less the character (I mean "Zombie Mortician" is a pretty dumb gimmick).

I'd throw Kane in there too. Granted, he's dull now but throughout the 90s and early 2000s he was awesome.

Also, are The Wyatts a Vince/creative creation or is that one Bray pitched himself? They're awesome, granted creative have dropped the ball a few times but as a gimmick/characters it's a solid win for creative.

[Reflecto]

The biggest problem with the "New Day succeeded because Creative got out of their way" thing is, even that's not telling the whole story.

The one common thread on lowercard gimmicks is, and always has been, the following: If it's obvious just watching the show that the wrestlers are clearly having WAY TOO MUCH FUN out there (not like JBL/Cole/King would claim, but the fans' seeing it for themselves), then the fans will pick up on it and get behind them just because of how much fun they're having.

If nothing else, you can't deny that New Day are clearly having way too much fun out there as heels, and people are picking up on it and getting behind them because they're just so much fun to watch.

The only problem with that?

They were having way too much fun out there as babyfaces TOO, when people despised them.

The only thing that stopped them then was that their face turn was destroyed, in large part because of all the fans coming to the same conclusion of "but...but...my FANTASY BOOKING said they were going to be the New Nation of Domination! My fantasy booking saided it and that's a promise from you- so you promised they'd be the New Nation and you lied to me and it's because you're racists they're NOT a bunch of angry black men out to kill all the white people, as if that gimmick in and of itself isn't also a racist gimmick too- so we VOW to ruin the New Day until you repackage them like that!". Only the New Day turning heel, and people realizing just how great their gimmick worked as heels, silences that.

The only thing the New Day's success is teaching in the modern era is that the "Reality Era" secretly ended at the Royal Rumble 2014 and the "EWR Era" is in: If WWE doesn't book their shows exactly how the smarks' fantasy booking decided they should book it, the smarks will derail the show until they get their way- and only a world-beating success by the WWE will even make it possible for the hardcore fans to say "okay, we'll give you this one...I GUESS...but you OWE US ONE, and next time we WILL call it in!"

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2015 17:10:55 GMT -5 Sicho100 said:

I feel like there are two big issues driving the creative incompetence:

1) Vince is desperately looking for the next Rock. And he will test a bunch of people out for a short period of time, and if they don't immediately bring this great boom, he tosses them aside and decides that they're worthless. Guys on the lower end of the card, especially, get f***ed because of this. Heath Slater, for example, is not someone I see as ever being a top guy, much less on The Rock's level. But neither was the Honky Tonk Man. Not being one of the biggest stars ever doesn't mean that you are useless and can't make money, which is what seems to be Vince's mindset.

2) Vince has gotten so much smoke blown up his ass for years about how he is such a creative genius and that nobody can make stars like Vince can, that he now thinks that he needs to imbue his roster with the Vince Genius in order for them to get over. He has been constantly told that he is the reason that Hogan, Austin, and Rock became superstars, despite the fact that Hulkamania was running wild in the AWA; "Stone Cold" Steve Austin got over rather than The Ringmaster; and it wasn't "The Blue Chipper" Rocky Maivia, but The Rock, that became a star. For years, Vince has been told that he is the one responsible for the stars, when they only actually became stars when he got out of their way. And so, in searching for that next Rock, he decides to micromanage everything, thinking that only Vince McMahon can create the next Rock, even though if he felt that way in the late-90s, he wouldn't have gotten the first Rock.

It makes sense. So much sense that it would blow my mind if it's true, because how do you not see these things if you're Vince?

Was the douchebag yes men thing from Punk's shoot that spot-on?

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Oct 15, 2015 9:09:09 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

The biggest problem with the "New Day succeeded because Creative got out of their way" thing is, even that's not telling the whole story.

The one common thread on lowercard gimmicks is, and always has been, the following: If it's obvious just watching the show that the wrestlers are clearly having WAY TOO MUCH FUN out there (not like JBL/Cole/King would claim, but the fans' seeing it for themselves), then the fans will pick up on it and get behind them just because of how much fun they're having.

If nothing else, you can't deny that New Day are clearly having way too much fun out there as heels, and people are picking up on it and getting behind them because they're just so much fun to watch.

The only problem with that?

They were having way too much fun out there as babyfaces TOO, when people despised them.

The only thing that stopped them then was that their face turn was destroyed, in large part because of all the fans coming to the same conclusion of "but...but...my FANTASY BOOKING said they were going to be the New Nation of Domination! My fantasy booking saided it and that's a promise from you- so you promised they'd be the New Nation and you lied to me and it's because you're racists they're NOT a bunch of angry black men out to kill all the white people, as if that gimmick in and of itself isn't also a racist gimmick too- so we VOW to ruin the New Day until you repackage them like that!". Only the New Day turning heel, and people realizing just how great their gimmick worked as heels, silences that.

The only thing the New Day's success is teaching in the modern era is that the "Reality Era" secretly ended at the Royal Rumble 2014 and the "EWR Era" is in: If WWE doesn't book their shows exactly how the smarks' fantasy booking decided they should book it, the smarks will derail the show until they get their way- and only a world-beating success by the WWE will even make it possible for the hardcore fans to say "okay, we'll give you this one...I GUESS...but you OWE US ONE, and next time we WILL call it in!"

I don't buy the whole "angry smark rage hive mind won't give it a chance" for a second. Look at this backstage segment from when they first won the tag titles in April.

You can see a lot of the seeds being planted, like antagonizing interviewers and passing the belts around between each other. But it's not anywhere near as much energy and gimmick as their segments have now. The New Day has evolved as an act in more ways than just turning heel, and it was evolving into something that people found entertaining that got them over. They didn't come out singing rewritten versions of songs to make fun of the audience and their opponents, they didn't have Xavier endlessly trash talking at ringside or shit like "Real mega dad of the year".

When they started, plenty of people were saying that WWE couldn't have done a New Nation tastefully and that in this current climate it was probable that there was no tasteful way to do it, and plenty more people just had complaints about the act itself, independent of what they thought should have been. Some people wished they had come back as angry black guys, sure, but it wasn't the entire audience all at once secretly in their heads deciding to reject the gimmick. Where the hell did they derail the show over the New Day? Shit, man, that happened one time, it's not an "era" or a standard way to do shit. It happened once.

That's the problem with calling out hypocrisy in a big group of people who don't actually ever really agree on anything. You have to construct a strawman out of what a few people say and apply that to a shitton of people who aren't that at all.

[KobashiChop]

I've learnt that there are a large number of people and things that are considered "booty" than I first realised.

[Reflecto]

Oct 15, 2015 11:37:52 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

I don't buy the whole "angry smark rage hive mind won't give it a chance" for a second. Look at this backstage segment from when they first won the tag titles in April.
(Video)
You can see a lot of the seeds being planted, like antagonizing interviewers and passing the belts around between each other. But it's not anywhere near as much energy and gimmick as their segments have now. The New Day has evolved as an act in more ways than just turning heel, and it was evolving into something that people found entertaining that got them over. They didn't come out singing rewritten versions of songs to make fun of the audience and their opponents, they didn't have Xavier endlessly trash talking at ringside or shit like "Real mega dad of the year".

When they started, plenty of people were saying that WWE couldn't have done a New Nation tastefully and that in this current climate it was probable that there was no tasteful way to do it, and plenty more people just had complaints about the act itself, independent of what they thought should have been. Some people wished they had come back as angry black guys, sure, but it wasn't the entire audience all at once secretly in their heads deciding to reject the gimmick. Where the hell did they derail the show over the New Day? Shit, man, that happened one time, it's not an "era" or a standard way to do shit. It happened once.

That's the problem with calling out hypocrisy in a big group of people who don't actually ever really agree on anything. You have to construct a strawman out of what a few people say and apply that to a shitton of people who aren't that at all.

Even then, the main problem is that- as many people said that they couldn't have done a New Nation tastefully, and in the current climate it was impossible there was no tasteful way to do it- doesn't change that enough people demanded that they do it anyway even if it couldn't be done tastefully. That's the point.

You HAVE to call out hypocrisy in the majority of people, because there'll never be a unanimous decision between people. I'm sure in that one time, there'd be people who said "But I didn't care if Daniel Bryan won Wrestlemania- hell, I was looking forward to Evolution exploding in the main event!"- but enough people DID say it that it was noticable that to ignore that this did happen is to say "well, I didn't feel that way, so clearly everyone else in the world didn't feel that way either!"- which is doing the same thing.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Oct 15, 2015 14:56:07 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Oct 15, 2015 11:37:52 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

I don't buy the whole "angry smark rage hive mind won't give it a chance" for a second. Look at this backstage segment from when they first won the tag titles in April.
(Video)
You can see a lot of the seeds being planted, like antagonizing interviewers and passing the belts around between each other. But it's not anywhere near as much energy and gimmick as their segments have now. The New Day has evolved as an act in more ways than just turning heel, and it was evolving into something that people found entertaining that got them over. They didn't come out singing rewritten versions of songs to make fun of the audience and their opponents, they didn't have Xavier endlessly trash talking at ringside or shit like "Real mega dad of the year".

When they started, plenty of people were saying that WWE couldn't have done a New Nation tastefully and that in this current climate it was probable that there was no tasteful way to do it, and plenty more people just had complaints about the act itself, independent of what they thought should have been. Some people wished they had come back as angry black guys, sure, but it wasn't the entire audience all at once secretly in their heads deciding to reject the gimmick. Where the hell did they derail the show over the New Day? Shit, man, that happened one time, it's not an "era" or a standard way to do shit. It happened once.

That's the problem with calling out hypocrisy in a big group of people who don't actually ever really agree on anything. You have to construct a strawman out of what a few people say and apply that to a shitton of people who aren't that at all.

Even then, the main problem is that- as many people said that they couldn't have done a New Nation tastefully, and in the current climate it was impossible there was no tasteful way to do it- doesn't change that enough people demanded that they do it anyway even if it couldn't be done tastefully. That's the point.

You HAVE to call out hypocrisy in the majority of people, because there'll never be a unanimous decision between people. I'm sure in that one time, there'd be people who said "But I didn't care if Daniel Bryan won Wrestlemania- hell, I was looking forward to Evolution exploding in the main event!"- but enough people DID say it that it was noticable that to ignore that this did happen is to say "well, I didn't feel that way, so clearly everyone else in the world didn't feel that way either!"- which is doing the same thing.

No, you don't have the numbers to back up a "majority" for your 'gotcha, smark hive mind' point. The of "it's not the New Nation so I hate it and want it to die" is not verifiable, and if they were of that attitude, wouldn't they still be unhappy with it not being the New Nation even as heels? A heel turn isn't a magical route to reconsidering if an act is entertaining or not; that came from the growth of the gimmick into what it is today. I don't buy that almost everyone was opposed to the gimmick because it wasn't this one specific thing they wanted, but even then, you're ignoring a lot of facts. Like the way they weren't what they are now when they were faces. Or the way people voiced their dislike mostly by just turning their chant around to make fun of them. Nothing hijack-ey, nothing vindictive, and certainly not anything to ascertain a majority opinion of why people didn't like them. But most of all, it ignores that they even admitted that they intentionally tried to sabotage the gimmick so that they could turn heel and do what they wanted because they hated the gimmick in its original form. Why is it such a leap to think that a lot of people just didn't like the gimmick even the performers were sour on?

[Jobes]

I've learned that while they were pitching the gimmick, Vince called Xavier Woods "Zeke" and Xavier never once corrected him or questioned it.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2015 9:09:09 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

The biggest problem with the "New Day succeeded because Creative got out of their way" thing is, even that's not telling the whole story.

The one common thread on lowercard gimmicks is, and always has been, the following: If it's obvious just watching the show that the wrestlers are clearly having WAY TOO MUCH FUN out there (not like JBL/Cole/King would claim, but the fans' seeing it for themselves), then the fans will pick up on it and get behind them just because of how much fun they're having.

If nothing else, you can't deny that New Day are clearly having way too much fun out there as heels, and people are picking up on it and getting behind them because they're just so much fun to watch.

The only problem with that?

They were having way too much fun out there as babyfaces TOO, when people despised them.

The only thing that stopped them then was that their face turn was destroyed, in large part because of all the fans coming to the same conclusion of "but...but...my FANTASY BOOKING said they were going to be the New Nation of Domination! My fantasy booking saided it and that's a promise from you- so you promised they'd be the New Nation and you lied to me and it's because you're racists they're NOT a bunch of angry black men out to kill all the white people, as if that gimmick in and of itself isn't also a racist gimmick too- so we VOW to ruin the New Day until you repackage them like that!". Only the New Day turning heel, and people realizing just how great their gimmick worked as heels, silences that.

The only thing the New Day's success is teaching in the modern era is that the "Reality Era" secretly ended at the Royal Rumble 2014 and the "EWR Era" is in: If WWE doesn't book their shows exactly how the smarks' fantasy booking decided they should book it, the smarks will derail the show until they get their way- and only a world-beating success by the WWE will even make it possible for the hardcore fans to say "okay, we'll give you this one...I GUESS...but you OWE US ONE, and next time we WILL call it in!"

No. Hogwash. I call hogwash. I call hogwash and shenanigans.

All Woods, Kofi, and Big E did to turn things around was antagonize babyfaces and fans. Maybe turning heel sounds like a huge deal on paper, but they didn't change their names, their looks, or their promo styles.

Dude, they didn't even stop clapping. All they did differently was act comically irritating. The fans ADORE them now.

So all they did to pacify the crowd was switch alignment. A small tweak in the grand scheme of things. You even acknowledge that.

But you still use New Day to paint the crowd as petulant and implacable? For what?

I don't believe the New Nation stuff at all, but if you do, then you know the crowd didn't even get what they supposedly wanted! There's zero chance of a New Nation at this rate! And they're perfectly okay with that. So what's the problem?

[SAJ Forth]

Oct 17, 2015 10:50:13 GMT -5 Jobes said:

I've learned that while they were pitching the gimmick, Vince called Xavier Woods "Zeke" and Xavier never once corrected him or questioned it.

He's over Shelton.