agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
Doesn't Know Whose Ring It Is
Posts: 21,159
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Post by agent817 on Dec 28, 2015 9:50:14 GMT -5
I read somewhere how when WCW was beating them week after week during the Monday Night Wars, the WWF was losing money. Now what I wonder is if they were really on the verge of dying. I mean I know a factor was that Vince could not afford to keep Bret Hart when he signed that 20-year contract, which was led him to go to WCW. Now let's not get into the subject of Bret Hart, as I was only making an example. Of course, in the mid-1990's, the WWF didn't make as much as they did when Hogan, Warrior and Savage were around. Plus, the NWO was one of the primary factors in WCW winning the MNW for more than a year.
In the end, the WWF had won the war completely, but were they on the verge on dying? Or do you think that they would have reached TNA levels of survival with still managing to live in spite of the bad state they were in?
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,038
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 28, 2015 10:23:08 GMT -5
The problem with these what-ifs always comes down to defining what going out of business would mean. WCW was different in that it was sold, and ECW was much smaller than WWF, but I'm sure WWF could have basically fired a lot of people and cut itself down in scale, if need be, to reduce operation costs, or Vince could have sold stock in the company long before they ended up going public in trading.
Would any of those help ultimately? I'm not sure, but it does at least make me think that while they were in dire straits, they weren't entirely without options or anything. They still had farther they could fall.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 28, 2015 11:04:17 GMT -5
I'd say yes, if they didn't turn it around after they got the 1.9 and instead chose to stay the course, keeping the largely squash match format while pushing for Shawn, Hunter, Mero and Ahmed to be the faces of the company ahead of Rocky, Foley and Austin, the whole thing would have collapsed. They were already running smaller and smaller venues, some shows recorded in highschool gyms and there is no way USA would have touched WWE programming if the average rating was below a 2. Spike TV/TNN may have wanted them but there's no way they would have paid enough to keep the whole thing afloat.
The company was already heavily pared down back before it began losing money, guys like Aldo Montoya and Bob Holly weren't being paid a living wage so there was little else they could cut, short of running the company entirely from the northeast, which would have killed ECW and kept the WWF zombie shambling a little while longer. Seriously, the WWF roster was about 40-50 guys, little larger than the ECW one, only ECW had more guys who could take a main event slot.
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 28, 2015 12:01:02 GMT -5
I wonder if they could have taken the approach wcw did in the mid-90s when they de-emphasized house shows and focused more on tv tapings.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 28, 2015 12:10:21 GMT -5
I wonder if they could have taken the approach wcw did in the mid-90s when they de-emphasized house shows and focused more on tv tapings. WCW was owned by a TV company and subsidised by them so they could afford to lose revenue streams like that while the WWF couldn't. House shows have always been a huge part of the WWF's business and if you remove them from the equation, the roster wouldn't make enough money to live on, ask the guys who were starved out of the WWF in the mid 90s like Carl Oulette and saw the amount of dates they were given slashed until it stopped being worth it. |
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Post by BlackJackRobby on Dec 30, 2015 19:56:38 GMT -5
I believe Jim Ross mentioned he was asked to cut his pay twice and Titan Towers was having luxuries removed from the offices. Eric Bischoff heard about that also, and was sure that meant death knelt.
Plus with running carny shows they were doomed if they didn't make the decision in mid-96 to totally change gears.
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 30, 2015 20:17:29 GMT -5
I think they were but in hindsight they really only had to hold out until the Time Warner/AOL merger and then when WCW was squashed people would've gone back. If it became absolutely necessary they could've gone back to being a northeast promotion and only operated in that area. Despite the popularity of WCW, they never drew great in the northeast. When the merger happened and WCW went out of business, which I'm convinced would've still happened because people weren't going to watch their terrible show even if it was the only one in town, the WWF would've re-emerged.
I just have a hard time believing that Vince would've sold or closed up shop unless he was completely out of options.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 16:25:01 GMT -5
Vince leased out parts of Titan Towers, IIRC, for extra money. Might've been in danger of losing it too. He also re-mortgaged his house once or twice.
The one thing I'll remember about those struggling days was that Vince put his personal finances on stake - the War was, in that respect (and many others), very personal for him.
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Post by paperbackhero on Jan 1, 2016 16:47:00 GMT -5
From 93 to 95 it was unwatchable for me, so I wish it did...are us from how bad WCW was getting with Hogan on top.
In the WWF the top guy was notoriously lazy on the house show circuit and they werent drawing, so they toured more...the production and focus was embarassingly lame....thnk god for Michaels, Austin, et al.
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Post by dangerousdanpotato on Jan 1, 2016 20:48:43 GMT -5
Has anyone read 'Titan Sinking: The decline of the WWF in 1995'? I'd imagine this would cover the OPs questions. It looks like an entertaining read.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 2, 2016 7:09:09 GMT -5
From 93 to 95 it was unwatchable for me, so I wish it did...are us from how bad WCW was getting with Hogan on top. In the WWF the top guy was notoriously lazy on the house show circuit and they werent drawing, so they toured more...the production and focus was embarassingly lame....thnk god for Michaels, Austin, et al. You do realise that Shawn Michaels wasn't freshly signed by the WWF in 1996, right? He was heavily pushed from 1993-1995 and he was often the one working with or against their non drawing champion on the house show circuit in '95, so is as much to blame as anyone else on the active roster in that time period. Management deserved the bulk of the blame, of course, it was their choice to gut the roster and replace it with dregs and keep on with the jobber squash format well into the Nitro years. I think Diesel's reputation for laziness in that time period is a little unfair, no-one would go out and give it their all wrestling 5 times a week in front of dwindling crowds. His laziness in WCW though, he actively regressed there and that's all on him. |
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Post by paperbackhero on Jan 2, 2016 11:11:04 GMT -5
From 93 to 95 it was unwatchable for me, so I wish it did...are us from how bad WCW was getting with Hogan on top. In the WWF the top guy was notoriously lazy on the house show circuit and they werent drawing, so they toured more...the production and focus was embarassingly lame....thnk god for Michaels, Austin, et al. You do realise that Shawn Michaels wasn't freshly signed by the WWF in 1996, right? He was heavily pushed from 1993-1995 and he was often the one working with or against their non drawing champion on the house show circuit in '95, so is as much to blame as anyone else on the active roster in that time period. Management deserved the bulk of the blame, of course, it was their choice to gut the roster and replace it with dregs and keep on with the jobber squash format well into the Nitro years. I think Diesel's reputation for laziness in that time period is a little unfair, no-one would go out and give it their all wrestling 5 times a week in front of dwindling crowds. His laziness in WCW though, he actively regressed there and that's all on him. No...it wasn't Nash's house show laziness that I was referring to....in all the house show matches I saw him in, were much too truncated to even garner laziness? Many wrestlers gave it their all wrestling more than 5 times a week, to dwindling crowds...not many in WWF historically, but that was the NWA hallmark...it's, y'know?...how you build fans, houses, and a following. Me, and all wrestling journalists at the time, from Meltzer on down, realized Michaels was still putting on the best matches in either big NA company....and to be lumped in with carrying as much blame as everyone else on the roster is ridiculous....miles above anyone else in the company, and truly innovative stuff. I dont think you get it...jobber matches are the only thing that will save wrestling. |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 2, 2016 11:34:02 GMT -5
You do realise that Shawn Michaels wasn't freshly signed by the WWF in 1996, right? He was heavily pushed from 1993-1995 and he was often the one working with or against their non drawing champion on the house show circuit in '95, so is as much to blame as anyone else on the active roster in that time period. Management deserved the bulk of the blame, of course, it was their choice to gut the roster and replace it with dregs and keep on with the jobber squash format well into the Nitro years. I think Diesel's reputation for laziness in that time period is a little unfair, no-one would go out and give it their all wrestling 5 times a week in front of dwindling crowds. His laziness in WCW though, he actively regressed there and that's all on him. No...it wasn't Nash's house show laziness that I was referring to....in all the house show matches I saw him in, were much too truncated to even garner laziness? Many wrestlers gave it their all wrestling more than 5 times a week, to dwindling crowds...not many in WWF historically, but that was the NWA hallmark...it's, y'know?...how you build fans, houses, and a following. Me, and all wrestling journalists at the time, from Meltzer on down, realized Michaels was still putting on the best matches in either big NA company....and to be lumped in with carrying as much blame as everyone else on the roster is ridiculous....miles above anyone else in the company, and truly innovative stuff. I dont think you get it...jobber matches are the only thing that will save wrestling. And wrestlers going all out in meaningless matches are why so many from those days are an absolute wreck while Nash, who came into wrestling with messed up knees can still work. Yes he shortchanged the fans, but a lot of that's on management for upping the workload and giving him and Shawn power of veto over their opponents. You love to point out how other guys didn't move the needle, Sting, Nash, the WCW Luchadors, Bret, yet when it comes to Shawn, oh well, he had great matches and Meltzer had a mancrush, still doesn't make him blameless for 95. He main evented house shows too, won the Rumble and had the true Wrestlemania main event match that year to boot. I agree there is a place for jobbers in wrestling, however, WWF programming of that era was almost all jobber squash shows, there should be a middle ground with local guys being used as heel fodder, but switching back to everyone having matches against the likes of Duane Gill to show off their moveset would kill wrestling. |
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Post by paperbackhero on Jan 2, 2016 15:18:35 GMT -5
No...it wasn't Nash's house show laziness that I was referring to....in all the house show matches I saw him in, were much too truncated to even garner laziness? Many wrestlers gave it their all wrestling more than 5 times a week, to dwindling crowds...not many in WWF historically, but that was the NWA hallmark...it's, y'know?...how you build fans, houses, and a following. Me, and all wrestling journalists at the time, from Meltzer on down, realized Michaels was still putting on the best matches in either big NA company....and to be lumped in with carrying as much blame as everyone else on the roster is ridiculous....miles above anyone else in the company, and truly innovative stuff. I dont think you get it...jobber matches are the only thing that will save wrestling. And wrestlers going all out in meaningless matches are why so many from those days are an absolute wreck while Nash, who came into wrestling with messed up knees can still work. Yes he shortchanged the fans, but a lot of that's on management for upping the workload and giving him and Shawn power of veto over their opponents. You love to point out how other guys didn't move the needle, Sting, Nash, the WCW Luchadors, Bret, yet when it comes to Shawn, oh well, he had great matches and Meltzer had a mancrush, still doesn't make him blameless for 95. He main evented house shows too, won the Rumble and had the true Wrestlemania main event match that year to boot. I agree there is a place for jobbers in wrestling, however, WWF programming of that era was almost all jobber squash shows, there should be a middle ground with local guys being used as heel fodder, but switching back to everyone having matches against the likes of Duane Gill to show off their moveset would kill wrestling. Sorry dude. Michaels didnt move the needle either...im not getting into it with you...here, this is what you want to hear...Bret Hart is the best, Michaels hurt your feelings, Flair sucks....yadda, yadda....dont take it so personally...some people dont agree with you, ayou are short sighted, and twist reality to suit your own weird ends and obsessions with your favourites. I get it...back in 84 I thought Steamboat could do no wrong... Sting didnt move the needle...neither did the luchadors, neither did Bret, Deisel or Shawn...the early 90's sucked for draws in the US...argue it all you want, it doesnt change the facts. |
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Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
Posts: 4,083
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Jan 2, 2016 18:56:57 GMT -5
Yes, that heartless greedy bastard Ted Turner used his billions to create a vendetta against poor Vince by stealing his talent by offering them more money to confuse audiences into watching (underhanded tactics Vince would NEVER dream of using) and when that couldn't take Vince's little mom and pop shop down, he sent Washington after them. Luckily, Vince used the last of WWE's assets to purchase a tank and drove it onto Ted Turner's front lawn, where he ran out onto the lawn, crying like a coward, and sold WCW to Vince right there.
Source: A WWE Network documentary on the Monday Night Wars from 2025
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Post by sdjonesbackhole on Jan 2, 2016 23:53:20 GMT -5
I think www makes it seem more serious than it was after the fact to make the story more interesting. Wwe would have scaled down, but no chance they would have closed. Vince is way to smart for that. Also just because McDonald's is #1, it doesn't mean Burger King has to close. Wwe is no different.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 3, 2016 1:14:55 GMT -5
Vince leased out parts of Titan Towers, IIRC, for extra money. Might've been in danger of losing it too. He also re-mortgaged his house once or twice. The one thing I'll remember about those struggling days was that Vince put his personal finances on stake - the War was, in that respect (and many others), very personal for him. I feel sorry for the poor bastard who had to share office space with Vince McMahon. |
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Jan 3, 2016 5:24:43 GMT -5
They wouldn't have been if they had just made Lex Luger world champion.
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zappa
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 311 
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Post by zappa on Jan 3, 2016 7:34:00 GMT -5
The New Gen gets such a bad rap but I liked a lot of it. 95 was a terrible year but 94 is one of my favourite years ever. Bret vs Owen Razor vs Shawn are 2 of favourite feuds ever. 93 and 96 are some good stuff in their too.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Jan 3, 2016 12:50:34 GMT -5
Guys like Aldo Montoya and Bob Holly weren't being paid a living wage so there was little else they could cut, short of running the company entirely from the northeast, which would have killed ECW and kept the WWF zombie shambling a little while longer. Seriously, the WWF roster was about 40-50 guys, little larger than the ECW one, only ECW had more guys who could take a main event slot. Do you really think that ECW fans (especially fans of ECW circa 1995) would have went to WWF shows instead of ECW shows just because the WWF consistently operated in the same backyard as ECW? Listen to the chants during the 95 King of the Ring: ECW fans were sick of the WWF's product, and weren't shy about expressing where their preference lied. |
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