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Post by Savage Gambino on Dec 28, 2015 20:28:43 GMT -5
...and being so trigger-happy to shoot a 12-year old kid isn't "unresponsible and unreasonable"? f***ing hell, Mr. Prosecutor. Yeah, heaven forbid he would've waited five more seconds. I saw the video. That was a drive-by shooting by any other name. Yet still, I'm not shocked, I'm not even disappointed. White cop kills black child and his brothers-in-arms find him innocent. Just another day in "post-racial" America.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 28, 2015 20:41:00 GMT -5
Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of manslaughter? Causing the unjustified death of another person through critical error or mistake? They drove up on a person with a gun in an open-carry state and opened fire in a manner of 2 seconds without any assessment of the situation, had it not been a police officer, I'm pretty sure they would have been charged with at least manslaughter. And you had said that there was no way someone wasn't going to get shot, I was only pointing out that there are plenty of other situations where police are under much greater potential threat and don't kill. Yes, it is. They should've been indicted, I've made it pretty clear how I feel about it. That's why they got off though, the belief that the officer in the moment felt like his life was in danger. I'm agreeing that the cop probably did feel that way, but it was because of their own doing and the dispatcher screwing up. But there's no law that said he should've approached differently, maybe there should be. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's the reason why they argued that they should get off, but I don't think that you really need to codify anything new into law. The framework was there to charge them, the DA just created the narrative to ensure that they wouldn't. And even trying to make a law out of it would be near impossible, because every situation is different. What they need to do it take cases involving police brutality out of teh department and out of that county's criminal justice system. Internal affairs should have civilian representatives whose job it is to ensure that public has a voice in police procedures. All of this is doable, but we have to stop buying into this notion that criticism of the police equates to encouraging violence or that oversight of police will just scare them away from doing their jobs or that there's a war on police (when, statistically, it's been getting safer to be a police officer).
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Post by StormanReigns on Dec 28, 2015 21:17:42 GMT -5
...and being so trigger-happy to shoot a 12-year old kid isn't "unresponsible and unreasonable"? f***ing hell, Mr. Prosecutor. Yeah, heaven forbid he would've waited five more seconds. I saw the video. That was a drive-by shooting by any other name. Yet still, I'm not shocked, I'm not even disappointed. White cop kills black child and his brothers-in-arms find him innocent. Just another day in "post-racial" America. I have family who are in the police. They all know their lives come 2nd when they take this job, it is just simply the job. In the absolute best case scenario for these officers, they failed to do this. To put your life first in a situation like this, involving a child is wrong in a million ways.
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Reflecto
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The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 28, 2015 22:04:58 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's the reason why they argued that they should get off, but I don't think that you really need to codify anything new into law. The framework was there to charge them, the DA just created the narrative to ensure that they wouldn't. And even trying to make a law out of it would be near impossible, because every situation is different. What they need to do it take cases involving police brutality out of teh department and out of that county's criminal justice system. Internal affairs should have civilian representatives whose job it is to ensure that public has a voice in police procedures. All of this is doable, but we have to stop buying into this notion that criticism of the police equates to encouraging violence or that oversight of police will just scare them away from doing their jobs or that there's a war on police (when, statistically, it's been getting safer to be a police officer). The problem is that, quite frankly, it's hopeless. As said, the bigger issue for most of these crimes is that the thin blue line is an unbreakable bond and it will never change. If Internal affairs has civilian reps to ensure the public has a voice, then the civilian reps will have to be appointed (and thus be as in bed with the police department as the DA is). If you move the case outside of the jurisdiction of the city- no matter where you move the jurisdiction to, there'll still be that thin blue line that'd protect any police officer, no matter how clearly guilty they are. When the most feasible way to get police officers who murder someone charged would have to go to a true democracy public vote for the "Guilty" or "Innocent" verdict- which has both the problem that it's as unconstitutional as it is unfeasible- that is a bad sign for any hope of this changing. The sad thing is- No one is able to police the police anymore, and so the only way to stop police brutality is likely to just abolish law enforcement entirely.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 28, 2015 22:10:19 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's the reason why they argued that they should get off, but I don't think that you really need to codify anything new into law. The framework was there to charge them, the DA just created the narrative to ensure that they wouldn't. And even trying to make a law out of it would be near impossible, because every situation is different. What they need to do it take cases involving police brutality out of teh department and out of that county's criminal justice system. Internal affairs should have civilian representatives whose job it is to ensure that public has a voice in police procedures. All of this is doable, but we have to stop buying into this notion that criticism of the police equates to encouraging violence or that oversight of police will just scare them away from doing their jobs or that there's a war on police (when, statistically, it's been getting safer to be a police officer). The problem is that, quite frankly, it's hopeless. As said, the bigger issue for most of these crimes is that the thin blue line is an unbreakable bond and it will never change. If Internal affairs has civilian reps to ensure the public has a voice, then the civilian reps will have to be appointed (and thus be as in bed with the police department as the DA is). If you move the case outside of the jurisdiction of the city- no matter where you move the jurisdiction to, there'll still be that thin blue line that'd protect any police officer, no matter how clearly guilty they are. When the most feasible way to get police officers who murder someone charged would have to go to a true democracy public vote for the "Guilty" or "Innocent" verdict- which has both the problem that it's as unconstitutional as it is unfeasible- that is a bad sign for any hope of this changing. The sad thing is- No one is able to police the police anymore, and so the only way to stop police brutality is likely to just abolish law enforcement entirely. I think one of the biggest advantage is also the biggest weakness, that DA's are elected officials. IF the public demanded more action against police officers who misbehave, than they could do so through the vote. I don't necessarily think it's hopeless, though, I think the more monitoring that police get, the more likely that the situation will improve. It did for dashcams, after all. It's not a perfect solution, but there will never be a perfect police force. The fact that the DA is an elected official, while a huge liability, can also be used to push them to act when they otherwise wouldn't, but that relies on the public as a whole demanding it, rather than a few communities.
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Dukect
Don Corleone
A person who tries to make sense of the senseless
Posts: 1,567
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Post by Dukect on Dec 28, 2015 22:22:33 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's the reason why they argued that they should get off, but I don't think that you really need to codify anything new into law. The framework was there to charge them, the DA just created the narrative to ensure that they wouldn't. And even trying to make a law out of it would be near impossible, because every situation is different. What they need to do it take cases involving police brutality out of teh department and out of that county's criminal justice system. Internal affairs should have civilian representatives whose job it is to ensure that public has a voice in police procedures. All of this is doable, but we have to stop buying into this notion that criticism of the police equates to encouraging violence or that oversight of police will just scare them away from doing their jobs or that there's a war on police (when, statistically, it's been getting safer to be a police officer). The problem is that, quite frankly, it's hopeless. As said, the bigger issue for most of these crimes is that the thin blue line is an unbreakable bond and it will never change. If Internal affairs has civilian reps to ensure the public has a voice, then the civilian reps will have to be appointed (and thus be as in bed with the police department as the DA is). If you move the case outside of the jurisdiction of the city- no matter where you move the jurisdiction to, there'll still be that thin blue line that'd protect any police officer, no matter how clearly guilty they are. When the most feasible way to get police officers who murder someone charged would have to go to a true democracy public vote for the "Guilty" or "Innocent" verdict- which has both the problem that it's as unconstitutional as it is unfeasible- that is a bad sign for any hope of this changing. The sad thing is- No one is able to police the police anymore, and so the only way to stop police brutality is likely to just abolish law enforcement entirely. Well there is this thefreethoughtproject.com/texas-town-sees-61-drop-crime-firing-cops-hiring-private-firm/If I'm violating the no politics rule then delete this but I think that this would be the best way to deal with this problem
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ibdude
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,706
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Post by ibdude on Dec 28, 2015 22:59:16 GMT -5
As a young 26 year old black man, seeing things like this don't even surprise me anymore. These fools get caught on camera doing this and don't even get brought to trial. This backwards country is going to hell if it's not already there.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 28, 2015 23:07:37 GMT -5
The best hope we have is for the police to call each other out but not sure how likely that is. It's not a good society when police and citizen are angry at each and massive distrust occurs.
Still there should be a trial and at least give a jury a shot at this and if they find the cops not guilty, at least the system did it's job.
Then again grand jury are just regular citizens so if they don't think it's a crime I'm not sure what you can do other than hope you get better jurors in the future.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 28, 2015 23:23:29 GMT -5
The best hope we have is for the police to call each other out but not sure how likely that is. It's not a good society when police and citizen are angry at each and massive distrust occurs. Like the cop in Baltimore who filed complaints with his superiors over the illegal acts by police that he witnessed? Dude got ran out of town, blackballed from law enforcement, and then harassed even after he changed careers. Some departments are about as bad as any drug cartel.
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Dr. T is an alien
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I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 28, 2015 23:32:34 GMT -5
As a young 26 year old black man, seeing things like this don't even surprise me anymore. These fools get caught on camera doing this and don't even get brought to trial. This backwards country is going to hell if it's not already there. Sadly, there are people in this country that would not even attempt to see things from your point of view. Me? As a redhead I am about as white as you can possibly be (there is some really, really dilute Lakota in me, but you'd never guess it by my looks). Just because I don't have to live with the social realities that others live with does not mean that I cannot comprehend that they exist. I probably don't understand the scope of those realities and probably underestimate their effects, but I can at least try to comprehend. Unfortunately, that's not entirely the 'Murican way. To some people their reality is sacrosanct and any dissonance with that reality is due to propaganda and lies. I'm sorry for those that have to deal with that.
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Dukect
Don Corleone
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Posts: 1,567
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Post by Dukect on Dec 29, 2015 0:01:39 GMT -5
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 29, 2015 0:46:27 GMT -5
Quentin Tarantino raised the issue of police brutality recently. The police union basically responded with "watch your back".
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Dr. T is an alien
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I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 29, 2015 0:55:32 GMT -5
Quentin Tarantino raised the issue of police brutality recently. The police union basically responded with "watch your back". This was also the response of the Cleveland PD Union President when members of the Cleveland Browns spoke out about the shooting of Tamir Rice.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 29, 2015 1:05:34 GMT -5
This is a phenomenon known as the "Blue Wall of Silence," where good cops who witness wrongdoing or abuse by dirty cops are expected to stick up for their brothers and sisters in blue by not informing on them. And doing the right thing and exposing the dirty cops' wrongs is met with retribution, usually in the form of losing out on promotions, getting crap shifts, or getting outright blackballed.
It's probably the most successful "Don't snitch" campaign ever. Which is ironic given the lamentations a lot of police other people in authority have when private citizens do the same thing.
Blue wall culture is the single most toxic thing about police in the United States today and honestly, it's a huge reason why a lot of people, especially in minority communities, don't trust the police.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 1:38:41 GMT -5
Outrageous.
I've taken some heat for coming down on the side of law enforcement when it comes to some of the other high profile shootings of young black men because I believed the stories were more complex. So trust me, when I'M out here going "What the hell is wrong with this jury?" there's got to be a few more people than normal disgusted by this.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 29, 2015 1:42:04 GMT -5
This is a phenomenon known as the "Blue Wall of Silence," where good cops who witness wrongdoing or abuse by dirty cops are expected to stick up for their brothers and sisters in blue by not informing on them. And doing the right thing and exposing the dirty cops' wrongs is met with retribution, usually in the form of losing out on promotions, getting crap shifts, or getting outright blackballed. It's probably the most successful "Don't snitch" campaign ever. Which is ironic given the lamentations a lot of police other people in authority have when private citizens do the same thing. Blue wall culture is the single most toxic thing about police in the United States today and honestly, it's a huge reason why a lot of people, especially in minority communities, don't trust the police. It is not just that though, it is an issue trust driven into every recruit from the day you step foot into the academy. First week I was in the academy, we did the legal paperwork and trust bullshit. You're taking the lives of everyone in that academy and on the force in your hands while they are taking your life in theirs. Now, at least here in Texas, they also make you learn about lying, coverups, and other illegal things and the consequences but it is the stuff that is usually glossed over because it isn't deemed important. You are taught to put yourself in every situation possible as well. So when Officer Asshole does something like this, you'll have guys and gals that go "he may be an asshole but if he says X happened, X happened" no matter the evidence because either you trust him or you think you'd have done the same. Let's say you're the one that does speak out, you can lose that trust factor, not because you snitched, but because you're seen as someone that would rather sit and observe over helping the guy in trouble. It is a "if I am getting shot at can I trust you to have my back or will you be taking notes for the case?" It is a thing grounded in a good idea but bred a f***ed up situation that is only becoming worse with each generation. This isn't to deny there being backlash against people that talk (and to be honest they probably become one and the same at some point) but I just think it should be noted it can be much bigger than that. There is also the whole issue surrounding major cities losing their best to the suburbs and small towns leaving them with crap candidates that would never make it otherwise. Then those crap candidates are shoved through subpar academies because of the lack of people on the streets and they end up acting without the proper training.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2015 1:43:36 GMT -5
This is a phenomenon known as the "Blue Wall of Silence," where good cops who witness wrongdoing or abuse by dirty cops are expected to stick up for their brothers and sisters in blue by not informing on them. And doing the right thing and exposing the dirty cops' wrongs is met with retribution, usually in the form of losing out on promotions, getting crap shifts, or getting outright blackballed. It's probably the most successful "Don't snitch" campaign ever. Which is ironic given the lamentations a lot of police other people in authority have when private citizens do the same thing. Blue wall culture is the single most toxic thing about police in the United States today and honestly, it's a huge reason why a lot of people, especially in minority communities, don't trust the police. I'm in law enforcement, corrections inside a prison's mental hospital. I know every day I walk in there (no joke) I say "I may not come out, because I'm outnumbered and unarmed, and I have restrictions on me that the inmates do not". I have been punched, spat on, had bodily fluids of every conceivable variety thrown at me, and yet...I have been in four physical alteractions in two years. Twice, I was attacked first, I had no choice but to respond with a restraint hold, once I dove inbetween two patients trying to kill each other and got tagged a few times for my efforts, and once was an attempt to put a deeply psychotic patient who said "I am going to kill all of you" and then attacked a co-worker in restraints. That's it, in two years. I don't look for a fight, I NEVER look for a fight, but we have those who are "cowboys" who want to go to war every day. I loathe them, I have turned them in, I have spoken up, and as a result I dn't get promoted. However, what I do get is that the majority of my co-workers (and in some cases the inmate/patient population) have backed me up when I've been gone after. I see police brutality in the same vein, the same mentality psychologically as "no snitchin", same as the public saying nothing about the mob running Chicago and New York for decades, it's "well, it's safer if..." rather than "do the right thing". It's all wrong, it's all horrible, and it's all senseless tragedy. I know that cops look at what I do as "not real police work" but I dont' get to deal with sweet old ladies or shop keepers that give me discounts, I get wall to wall felons for 40 hours a week for less money, and those same felons see me as the avatar of the cops th ey are mad at. Point is, if I can go to work and look a psychotic patient in the eye, say "I will treat you with the courtesy you deserve as a human being, I will not hold grudges" then so can Johnny Gun Slinger fresh out of the academy. The saddest part, I know many cops, they are good men and women, with honor. But they, like the kid in a hoodie who people run from even though he's just gong to school, are judged with a wide brush that is often unfair and overly harsh.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 29, 2015 1:53:55 GMT -5
Outrageous. I've taken some heat for coming down on the side of law enforcement when it comes to some of the other high profile shootings of young black men because I believed the stories were more complex. So trust me, when I'M out here going "What the hell is wrong with this jury?" there's got to be a few more people than normal disgusted by this. I think the broad issue is what can you really do about Juries who make decisions you don't agree with you know. I mean grand juries don't have to think guilt is in play before hand and they still pass the case up. It's not like it will be easy to pass a law preventing non racist/bad juror because it's all subjective. Obviously the solution here is to prevent the crime to happen in the first place which there is hope body camera's more training part comes in but I don't know...I think it's clear a lot of Americans' still lie on the pro police side which means passing legislation to overhaul the police or judicial system will bee extremely tough.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2015 2:01:59 GMT -5
Outrageous. I've taken some heat for coming down on the side of law enforcement when it comes to some of the other high profile shootings of young black men because I believed the stories were more complex. So trust me, when I'M out here going "What the hell is wrong with this jury?" there's got to be a few more people than normal disgusted by this. I think the broad issue is what can you really do about Juries who make decisions you don't agree with you know. I mean grand juries don't have to think guilt is in play before hand and they still pass the case up. It's not like it will be easy to pass a law preventing non racist/bad juror because it's all subjective. Obviously the solution here is to prevent the crime to happen in the first place which there is hope body camera's more training part comes in but I don't know...I think it's clear a lot of Americans' still lie on the pro police side which means passing legislation to overhaul the police or judicial system will bee extremely tough. I know I already posted something, but I wanted to touch on "what can be done to change...". The sad answer is, I'm not sure it can, and here's why. You either get cops who are drilled into being robots, which happens, who react according to procedure and only procedure, who do not, can not, think beyond "the book says", and what does that serve? The other option is that cops have some level of autonomy to do their jobs, and that, unfortunately, means that they think like any other human being on the planet. They are susceptible to greed just as anyone is, they feel fear, they feel tension, they do not simply say "I must refrain from feeling any fear in this situation as I am trained to do". SOme can, some can't, just as with ANY job, ANY walk of life. Body cameras will stop one side of it, at least in many cases, or at least up accountability to some level, but it won't stop violence. It won't stop a person (any person) who wants to act violently from doing so. Beause at the end of the day, we are ruled by our emotions, and how we handle them.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 29, 2015 2:06:41 GMT -5
This is a phenomenon known as the "Blue Wall of Silence," where good cops who witness wrongdoing or abuse by dirty cops are expected to stick up for their brothers and sisters in blue by not informing on them. And doing the right thing and exposing the dirty cops' wrongs is met with retribution, usually in the form of losing out on promotions, getting crap shifts, or getting outright blackballed. It's probably the most successful "Don't snitch" campaign ever. Which is ironic given the lamentations a lot of police other people in authority have when private citizens do the same thing. Blue wall culture is the single most toxic thing about police in the United States today and honestly, it's a huge reason why a lot of people, especially in minority communities, don't trust the police. I'm in law enforcement, corrections inside a prison's mental hospital. I know every day I walk in there (no joke) I say "I may not come out, because I'm outnumbered and unarmed, and I have restrictions on me that the inmates do not". I have been punched, spat on, had bodily fluids of every conceivable variety thrown at me, and yet...I have been in four physical alteractions in two years. Twice, I was attacked first, I had no choice but to respond with a restraint hold, once I dove inbetween two patients trying to kill each other and got tagged a few times for my efforts, and once was an attempt to put a deeply psychotic patient who said "I am going to kill all of you" and then attacked a co-worker in restraints. That's it, in two years. I don't look for a fight, I NEVER look for a fight, but we have those who are "cowboys" who want to go to war every day. I loathe them, I have turned them in, I have spoken up, and as a result I dn't get promoted. However, what I do get is that the majority of my co-workers (and in some cases the inmate/patient population) have backed me up when I've been gone after. I see police brutality in the same vein, the same mentality psychologically as "no snitchin", same as the public saying nothing about the mob running Chicago and New York for decades, it's "well, it's safer if..." rather than "do the right thing". It's all wrong, it's all horrible, and it's all senseless tragedy. I know that cops look at what I do as "not real police work" but I dont' get to deal with sweet old ladies or shop keepers that give me discounts, I get wall to wall felons for 40 hours a week for less money, and those same felons see me as the avatar of the cops th ey are mad at. Point is, if I can go to work and look a psychotic patient in the eye, say "I will treat you with the courtesy you deserve as a human being, I will not hold grudges" then so can Johnny Gun Slinger fresh out of the academy. The saddest part, I know many cops, they are good men and women, with honor. But they, like the kid in a hoodie who people run from even though he's just gong to school, are judged with a wide brush that is often unfair and overly harsh. I wanted to thank you for this, and add my own perspective. I know a fair amount of LEOs and family members of LEOs, and the disparity of views on how they view the public is very offputting. I'm a younger white male, who between the way that I dress and look can easily be and have been assumed to be Hispanic, and I have been told multiple times to change the way that I dress and present myself to not face trouble from officers on patrol. I've been mistreated due to this in the past, and have many friends who have had to deal with much worse treatment by LEOs. One time, after being thrown in the back of a patrol car for asking why I was being questioned, a family friend who was in the same precinct straight up told me that there was a huge issue in the entire department of mistreatment of minorities. The suburbs of NYC are some of the worst areas in the country for race relations, and instead of the police trying to bridge the gap, they actively work to create disparity. It is an epidemic, one that needs to stop immediately.
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