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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 14:31:43 GMT -5
Was HBK over with the fans during his run as "the guy"? I've read bits and pieces that he was, in fact, hated by most of the fan base and I found that surprising. Did Shawn move the needle at all?
All I know is that Meltzer had a hard on for him.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Jan 2, 2016 14:44:44 GMT -5
Rating and attendance were still down since it was the mid 1990s. The fans that stayed and new fans took to him sort of like how fans take to John Cena, but not THAT divisive. He was definitely more over with women and young kids than male teens and adults. Since, I was about nine at the time I loved him! Although when the rivalry with Bret got really bitter I was 100% a Bret guy.
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dav
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Post by dav on Jan 2, 2016 15:27:01 GMT -5
I do remember Sid being cheered over Michaels at least twice on PPV. The gimmick really didn't help him, it wasn't a main event Face thing at all.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 2, 2016 17:33:55 GMT -5
He was over. Mostly to the females in the crowd and some of the males. He drew a decent pop on most nights. Now the WWE ratings was down before he was champion and as champion. Now a lot of people blame him for that but nobody wants to break down the big picture. Allow me to explain.
Shawn had to go against the NWO when it was just starting and red hot. There isn't anybody in the WWE at that time who can beat that because the WWE didn't have a hot angle to make Shawn. He went against camp Cornette which wasn't a bad 3 headed stable but he doesn't match up against a stable that fans believed was a WWE invasion in WCW. Plus TV wise you had a ONE hour Taped Raw going against a Two hours LIVE Nitro. When you look at the roster itself and the undercard. WCW had the Cruiserweights and a ton of star power. Shawn was the worker. Below him was stuff like Jake Roberts and Lawler. WCW PPVs had Cruierweights to get the crowd going to kick of the shows and at the time was something exciting and different. Plus two other big name talent matches behind the ME. Shawn had well Taker and Mankind and that was about it.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Jan 3, 2016 12:56:14 GMT -5
I respected Michaels for his in-ring work, but as a mark, I didn't buy his face turn and thought he never did anything to properly redeem himself for all the years of being one of wrestling's most convincingly arrogant heels. Even though I was someone who cheered for heels whom I thought were great wrestlers (Vader, Rude, Sid, etc.), I hated Michaels because his heel persona was so convincing, and partly because I was envious and resented him rubbing things in in such a believable way.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Jan 4, 2016 0:30:25 GMT -5
If Michaels wasn't over, WWF would not have survived. Business was at an all time low, and WCW had a vastly superior product, so of course ratings and live gates were going to be down no matter who was on top. That said, while Bret was the bigger draw in '96 from a ratings/gate perspective (boy do i hate who is/isn't a draw discussions) Michaels was over enough to still carry the company during its darkest of hours.
Bret was on sabbatical, Austin was still emerging, Taker was helping establish Goldust and Mankind as main guys, and Camp Cornette were perfect foils (Bulldog/Owen/Vader were perfect) so without HBK captioning the ship, the whole Federation goes into freefall. Without Michaels, there's no incentive to watch the main angles/order the PPVs. He was definitely over.
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Post by celticjobber on Jan 4, 2016 3:55:32 GMT -5
Even as a kid, I liked Shawn as a heel.
But his babyface run as champion, along with Bret (my favorite wrestler ever) being out for most of 1996 led to my lowest point of interest in WWF since becoming a fan up to that point.
Though looking back, HBK had some great matches during that run.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 4, 2016 12:53:42 GMT -5
See, here is the thing. Was Michaels SUPER over as THE GUY and doing tremendous business? No. Now, was he super over for the chase? Yes. But, here is where it gets tricky. Was business down because of him, or would it have been EVEN WORSE without him. I am of the opinion that he was the most over guy they had and the best guy for the job. They might have really went out of business at that point without HBK. That is why Vince took to him the way he did. It isn't an unexplainable man crush on the guy who almost killed his company. It is an appreciation and recognition for the guy who kept the lights on when the proverbial pantry was bare.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 4, 2016 13:14:07 GMT -5
Which period are we talking about?
1994: Long term angle is set up with Michaels & Nash as as team with HBK being the leader and Big Daddy Cool as the muscle. At the end of the year they did the split with Diesel going face and Shawn staying heel.
1995: Won the Rumble and started using the kick as his finisher. Due to his talent got over with the fans as the guy they wanted to be the top guy. Turned face and was given the IC belt to try to appease fans as VKM still wanted Nash on the top of the card. By the end of the year it was clear Diesel was done and Michaels should be the guy.
1996: Stopped cutting kinda snarky cool promos and started cutting generic babyface promos. Introduced Jose Lothario as his mentor (before he was a meme on this board Jose was very popular for his portrayal of "balding fat guy who nobody knows". Won the Rumble again, beat Owen to end the concussion angle, beat Bret to win the belt and then beat Diesel on his way out to cement himself as the guy.
Unfortunately by this time the cool 1995 Shawn Michaels had been replaced by the lame 1996 version. Plus WCW took around the same time.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Jan 4, 2016 13:33:25 GMT -5
I remember HBK's hokey heel turn with Sweatsock Jose Lothario.
I liked it back then but now? It's rubbish. I didn't really analyze wrestling back then due to lack of internet (did not get online until late '95-early '96).
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 4, 2016 13:36:16 GMT -5
I remember HBK's hokey heel turn with Sweatsock Jose Lothario. I liked it back then but now? It's rubbish. I didn't really analyze wrestling back then due to lack of internet (did not get online until late '95-early '96). What heel turn? The one that ended suddenly in the winter of 1997? He was a face with Lothario and was a face when he came back from losing his smile until DX formed.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Jan 4, 2016 13:44:53 GMT -5
I remember HBK's hokey FACE run with Sweatsock Jose Lothario. I liked it back then but now? It's rubbish. I didn't really analyze wrestling back then due to lack of internet (did not get online until late '95-early '96). What heel turn? The one that ended suddenly in the winter of 1997? He was a face with Lothario and was a face when he came back from losing his smile until DX formed. Face..heel..face...heel...I Don't Knowwwwwwww!!!! Sorry, bad day here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 14:17:24 GMT -5
No one who was in the KliK was ever a main event draw.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 4, 2016 14:28:52 GMT -5
See, here is the thing. Was Michaels SUPER over as THE GUY and doing tremendous business? No. Now, was he super over for the chase? Yes. But, here is where it gets tricky. Was business down because of him, or would it have been EVEN WORSE without him. I am of the opinion that he was the most over guy they had and the best guy for the job. They might have really went out of business at that point without HBK. That is why Vince took to him the way he did. It isn't an unexplainable man crush on the guy who almost killed his company. It is an appreciation and recognition for the guy who kept the lights on when the proverbial pantry was bare. Shawn was at the top end of the card in the two worst years for the WWF, 95 (heel) and 96 (face), and didn't do great business in 97 (tweener) either, he was up there for long enough that he should shoulder as much of the blame as anyone else, perhaps more so as everyone else, even Razor and Diesel (to an extent), worked with and jobbed when they were told to get people over. Shawn didn't keep the lights on in the mid 90s, the European expansion did and he wasn't the face of that. He actively damaged the WWF in Europe when he kneecapped the European title and damaged their attempt to run actual PPVs there at a time most of their shows were free (With a Sky sports subscription). I'm not sure Vince is a person you can apply rational businessman/human being logic to, Vince has spent the past decade and a half years pushing his upper-midcarder son in law like he's Hulk Hogan to the detriment of his company, even giving him preferential treatment over his real son. Vince took to Shawn because he's the guy that many middleaged men dream of being, the rebel who's the heart of the in-crowd, the guy who parties and gets all the girls so overlooked sins that anyone else would be fired for, heck, Shawn actively tried to get fired in 1997 yet Vince still clung to him.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Jan 4, 2016 14:33:03 GMT -5
1996: ... Introduced Jose Lothario as his mentor (before he was a meme on this board Jose was very popular for his portrayal of "balding fat guy who nobody knows".) I skimmed over the FAN thread about Lothario, but don't get the meme. What's the appeal in talking about this guy? Why are people even mentioning him anymore? It's sort of puzzling like how Beyond the Mat came out in the late 90s, but Dennis Stamp didn't become uber popular until 2006 or so (presumably once RD Reynolds and Blade Braxton made references to him on Wrestlecrap Radio).
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Jan 4, 2016 14:36:09 GMT -5
It's sort of puzzling like how Beyond the Mat came out in the late 90s, but Dennis Stamp didn't become uber popular until 2006 or so (presumably once RD Reynolds and Blade Braxton made references to him on Wrestlecrap Radio). Nah, Stamp was the breakout star of that movie LONG before RD and Blade. He gets referenced on a lot of worked-y shoot-y indie commentary as far back as 2002.
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domrep
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Post by domrep on Jan 4, 2016 14:37:20 GMT -5
It didn't help matters that any time he was scheduled to drop the belt, he didn't. I think they missed out on a big opportunity to get the belt on Vader at Summerslam and have HBK chase.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 4, 2016 14:58:58 GMT -5
1996: ... Introduced Jose Lothario as his mentor (before he was a meme on this board Jose was very popular for his portrayal of "balding fat guy who nobody knows".) I skimmed over the FAN thread about Lothario, but don't get the meme. What's the appeal in talking about this guy? Why are people even mentioning him anymore? It's sort of puzzling like how Beyond the Mat came out in the late 90s, but Dennis Stamp didn't become uber popular until 2006 or so (presumably once RD Reynolds and Blade Braxton made references to him on Wrestlecrap Radio). The thread was funny if you participated in it at the time because of how unhappy Shawn looks in all pictures of the pairing, but it ran it's course, sadly like most forum memes here, people seem determined to keep it alive in threads outside of the one it originated in, long after the point it stopped being amusing. See also Christian and slaves, too Asian, he's fat and can you afford to pay me, gah. Shawn would have done a MUCH better job as champion were he allowed to be himself, but like Diesel, they crammed him into that same square hole, playing to none of his strengths. They tried to manufacture a backstory for Shawn that nobody bought, not even the guy himself and he looked painfully ill at ease, paired up with a manager he clearly didn't need or even like.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 4, 2016 15:29:27 GMT -5
It's sort of puzzling like how Beyond the Mat came out in the late 90s, but Dennis Stamp didn't become uber popular until 2006 or so (presumably once RD Reynolds and Blade Braxton made references to him on Wrestlecrap Radio). Nah, Stamp was the breakout star of that movie LONG before RD and Blade. He gets referenced on a lot of worked-y shoot-y indie commentary as far back as 2002. Yeah, it was most certainly not Wrestlecrap radio that made Stamp a thing ... for one thing most people on the forum didn't go to the Wrestlecrap main page... I mean I did... but someone made a poll at one point before the split about do you still go to the main page... "No" won by a lot from what I remember... with several people in the thread not realizing there was a main page...
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 4, 2016 15:37:21 GMT -5
1996: ... Introduced Jose Lothario as his mentor (before he was a meme on this board Jose was very popular for his portrayal of "balding fat guy who nobody knows".) I skimmed over the FAN thread about Lothario, but don't get the meme. What's the appeal in talking about this guy? Why are people even mentioning him anymore? It's sort of puzzling like how Beyond the Mat came out in the late 90s, but Dennis Stamp didn't become uber popular until 2006 or so (presumably once RD Reynolds and Blade Braxton made references to him on Wrestlecrap Radio). Honestly I don't either. I want a shoot answer. Like I get he was a fat balding guy who was unknown outside of Texas and he wasn't over. But that was it. I don't have any problem with him being mocked. I just don't care enough about him either way for it to be funny.
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