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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 31, 2016 9:47:56 GMT -5
A frequent discussion on here is the cheering of heels and booing of faces. Personally, I find the booing of faces largely funny simply because WWE largely has themselves to blame for it happening.
The general consensus is frequently that if WWE wants us to cheer or boo the right people, they should have better writing.
Is this not a slight oversimplification of the issue?
I think there is a good point there as far as babyfaces go, because people like Cena and Reigns are often booked so badly that many can't help but boo them.
On the other hand... if Kevin Owens had debuted on Raw by buttf***ing every audience member's mother, one by one, he would still have got a face pop because he's Kevin Owens. I think that applies to any of the 'indie' guys like Cesaro, Punk, Sami, AJ, in some towns, they will always get cheered regardless of what they do.
In fact, people often cheer good heel work. They cheer things that are massively heelish simply because the writing is good for the segment.
It's not necessarily a criticism of the crowds, but I think that the entire way we react to everything is kinda... broken. Cheer good face work, cheer good heel work, cheer high spots, cheer beatdowns... I think that especially in a PG environment, WWE is just not going to be able to get consistent heel reactions for people outside of those that are passionately hated either rationally (Eva) or irrationally (the Drifter).
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Post by Heartbreaker on May 31, 2016 9:52:12 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 10:00:00 GMT -5
I'm just glad they seem to be easing up on the, "Take away every reason a heel is interesting," thing in response to heels being cheered. I'd rather a villain be cheered for being entertaining than get silence for being boring like it was in the Everyone is SRS Jericho days. Of course, still happens occasionally - see Bad News Barrett on that one, where they intentionally wrecked something that was totally working just because.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 31, 2016 10:00:08 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki. An alarming number of people love Walter White because they don't realise he's the villain in his own story. As for Loki? God only knows, everyone wants to f*** Tom Hiddlestone whether he's Loki or not. While I'm sure plenty of people want to f*** Kevin Owens, I think that's the person, not the character (although some will want to f*** the character too, there's a fetish for everything). |
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Post by Dub H on May 31, 2016 10:05:45 GMT -5
These days, people just love villains. It's not only wrestling. Look at how many people love Walter White and Loki. An alarming number of people love Walter White because they don't realise he's the villain in his own story. As for Loki? God only knows, everyone wants to f*** Tom Hiddlestone whether he's Loki or not. While I'm sure plenty of people want to f*** Kevin Owens, I think that's the person, not the character (although some will want to f*** the character too, there's a fetish for everything). Well,it's more that if they are entertaining characters,they will like watching then (don't know about Walter White , since I don't watch).Which is very much the case with the WWE heels,even more when the faces are awful. |
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Post by Bo Rida on May 31, 2016 10:12:29 GMT -5
Yeah it can be annoying, I get cheering Owens against Cena and the narrative allows for that but if you're doing the same against a pure face like Zayn where there's no stupid meta storyline then it just ends up harming both men.
Usually it can be fixed by having better faces though like when Rollins got booed against Ambrose. Even the aforementioned Zayn vs Owens feud wasn't well established on the main roster at the start so it makes sense some side with the guy they knew over somebody they've got no reason to invest in.
It's also ruins the slow turn where a heel gradually becomes too popular and the crowd turn them face, it means nothing when every crappy heel is cheered.
(Yeah I know Zayn still got the majority of cheers in the feud but Owens still received face reactions at times)
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 31, 2016 10:13:28 GMT -5
An alarming number of people love Walter White because they don't realise he's the villain in his own story. As for Loki? God only knows, everyone wants to f*** Tom Hiddlestone whether he's Loki or not. While I'm sure plenty of people want to f*** Kevin Owens, I think that's the person, not the character (although some will want to f*** the character too, there's a fetish for everything). Well,it's more that if they are entertaining characters,they will like watching then (don't know about Walter White , since I don't watch).Which is very much the case with the WWE heels,even more when the faces are awful. But that's not a show with immediate audience feedback like wrestling is, though. They're not really fairly comparable. |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on May 31, 2016 10:14:10 GMT -5
TBF, this is also kind of a result of the company itself going "THESE ARE JUST ACTORS ON A TV SHOW, HAHA! WE'RE JUST HAVING SOME FUN, MAGGLE!" constantly.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 31, 2016 10:17:36 GMT -5
The most dastardly thing a heel does nowadays is pull the tights which the commentators and cameramen miss half the time. I wish heels would actually cheat more often. Pull off the turnbuckle padding, give a low blow, use brassnkunckles, etc. Just give me a reason to dislike you.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 31, 2016 10:22:16 GMT -5
It's WWE's fault. If they can't write effective heroes and villains, they just aren't very good at this whole "booking" lark.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 31, 2016 10:29:09 GMT -5
Cena and Reigns have won so many times they are the unstoppable ones, they are the guys who stomp on the talented wrestlers they put up against them, on paper and in the eyes of the audience, they're not overcoming the odds, they are the odds. They're bigger, stronger, smarter and more accomplished than their opponents (Unless it's Triple H, of course), they've ploughed through all put up against them and will do so again, the WWE's current PPV schedule gives people no time to forget this because they blow through major feuds in a month or two. Anyone put up against them is the face by default and the blame for that lies entirely on the WWE's shoulders.
Kevin Owens would get booed if he debuted by laying out Daniel Bryan because he was a face that had the audience behind him, he didn't win every feud and wasn't pushed as being better than everyone around him, but fans are going to cheer KO flattening guys they have no sympathy for like Ceha and Reigns, that's just how it workd. People aren't cheering them because they're indie guys, they're cheering them because the person they're put up against isn't sympathetic, is only a face because the company book them to wrestle a face style with commentators acting like they're the good guy no matter what the audience say.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 31, 2016 10:32:38 GMT -5
It's WWE's fault. If they can't write effective heroes and villains, they just aren't very good at this whole "booking" lark. But that's my entire point. I don't buy that this is the only reason. Yeah WWE sucks at this, but I think Kevin Owens or CM Punk could squat down and take a shit in the centre of the ring and still get cheered simply because of who they are. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 31, 2016 10:43:55 GMT -5
Heels should do more heelish things. Shocking I know. I agree with you tho. You have to present heels as cold bastards. Seth had that going for him when he made John bring back the Authority and still was going to kill Edge in the end. Shit like that needs to happen more. If you strip everything away from them then you have your Randy Ortons and Chris Jerichos of the world who can make it work but those are all time greats.
Show your heels taking the turnbuckle off, poking the eyes, just blatant cheating so the fans stop cheering for them. Not every babyface can pull of a Sami Zayn or Daniel Bryan. I don't mind shades of gray from some characters but you need more guys like Miz who gets their role but in a way you can appreciate them for doing their job. KO has dastardly heel in him but in a world of bodies he stands out because of the personality he has. He's still new to the scene because he's establishing himself so to say so he gets a pass but I have no doubt when it comes time he will dial it up in a feud.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 31, 2016 10:47:24 GMT -5
Generally I prefer narratives that mostly put faces over, I think it's better for wrestling in the long run. I wasn't a fan of TNA's "nonstop heel group regimes with stupid faces that can't get along" stories.
But I'm not an everybody must obey kayfabe" stickler. Deep down, I always cheered who I thought was cooler, even as a kid. I loved the shit out of Flair and cheered him over guys like Tito Santana, and I also liked some fair play guys like Bret Hart, and I enjoyed Macho Man beating the crap out of Jake Roberts.
And backstage stuff and pushes usually won't affect my outlook, if I think you're cool for whatever reason, I'll cheer you. I liked CM Punk more in his feud with Jeff Hardy, so I backed him. I found John Cena to be more sympathetic in their feud, and I also think he's more charismatic than Punk, Owens and Rusev, so in those instances I backed Big Match John.
But when Owens was feuding with Riley? You're damn right I was rooting for the villain.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 31, 2016 10:47:30 GMT -5
It's WWE's fault. If they can't write effective heroes and villains, they just aren't very good at this whole "booking" lark. But that's my entire point. I don't buy that this is the only reason. Yeah WWE sucks at this, but I think Kevin Owens or CM Punk could squat down and take a shit in the centre of the ring and still get cheered simply because of who they are. Kevin Owens is a guy who constantly makes Michael Cole look like shit. Punk was a guy who said that alcohol is harmful, cigarettes cause illness, that the drug-using Jeff Hardy was a poor role model for children, and that the WWE system was rotten to the core. Of course they'd get cheered. |
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Post by The Ichi on May 31, 2016 10:48:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 10:54:07 GMT -5
Rollins? Outside of having a tenacious streak he has no redeeming traits whatsoever, has openly tried to kill people on multiple occasions, stabbed his brother in the back to get ahead, and seemingly has nothing he'll hesitate to do if it'll advance his career. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 31, 2016 10:55:46 GMT -5
But that's my entire point. I don't buy that this is the only reason. Yeah WWE sucks at this, but I think Kevin Owens or CM Punk could squat down and take a shit in the centre of the ring and still get cheered simply because of who they are. Kevin Owens is a guy who constantly makes Michael Cole look like shit. Punk was a guy who said that alcohol is harmful, cigarettes cause illness, that the drug-using Jeff Hardy was a poor role model for children, and that the WWE system was rotten to the core. Of course they'd get cheered. Firstly, Owens also mercilessly beats the shit out of people while using his own family as an excuse. Secondly, Punk says all of those things in a self-righteous way that is meant to paint him as an asshole. Thirdly, they're not the only examples. Punk got cheered in the Undertaker feud despite f***ing with an (actual) dead man's (fake) ashes, but people have said repeatedly that Daniel Bryan's heel character in 2012 was inspiring Daniel Bryan chants before Mania 28 even started, despite him being an appalling winner and emotionally abusive towards AJ (if that had started by that point? I could be remembering wrongly). Fourthly, none of that is the point anyway, the point being that any of those guys would be getting cheered because of who they are anyway whatever heelish stuff they did. They would insult a sports team and get booed for five seconds and then get cheered a second later. |
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Post by The Ichi on May 31, 2016 11:04:19 GMT -5
Kevin Owens is a guy who constantly makes Michael Cole look like shit. Punk was a guy who said that alcohol is harmful, cigarettes cause illness, that the drug-using Jeff Hardy was a poor role model for children, and that the WWE system was rotten to the core. Of course they'd get cheered. Firstly, Owens also mercilessly beats the shit out of people while using his own family as an excuse. Secondly, Punk says all of those things in a self-righteous way that is meant to paint him as an asshole. Thirdly, they're not the only examples. Punk got cheered in the Undertaker feud despite f***ing with an (actual) dead man's (fake) ashes, but people have said repeatedly that Daniel Bryan's heel character in 2012 was inspiring Daniel Bryan chants before Mania 28 even started, despite him being an appalling winner and emotionally abusive towards AJ (if that had started by that point? I could be remembering wrongly). Fourthly, none of that is the point anyway, the point being that any of those guys would be getting cheered because of who they are anyway whatever heelish stuff they did. They would insult a sports team and get booed for five seconds and then get cheered a second later. It's almost like they shouldn't be heels. |
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Post by Captain & Diet on May 31, 2016 11:06:52 GMT -5
My mom loves anal so we'd still cheer Owens around here.
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