metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Dec 19, 2016 1:49:59 GMT -5
So lets say in theory that WWE signed up every somewhat marketable independent wrestler out there. Your Omegas, your Adam Coles and Briscoes. Anyone who is a name. This will obviously gut the rosters considerably, but would this occurrence be a blessing in disguise for unknowns to step up and make their own names or would the indies just die overnight?
This is something I've wondered for a while now, especially with WWE being more independent friendly as of late.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 19, 2016 2:46:33 GMT -5
They will regenerate but it will take time and honestly some indie groups will get knocked back and possibly out. A lot of it will come down to people WWE let's go and which promoters would.be willing to put egos aside to work with people they don't like to keep going. Places like Chikara, CZW, HOG and HOH that have schools will be in a better position than those without.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Dec 19, 2016 4:08:37 GMT -5
Yes they will. They always do.
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魔界5号
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Post by 魔界5号 on Dec 19, 2016 4:18:47 GMT -5
Well yeah. When Steen, Generico, PAC, etc all got signed, people like Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly started making waves. And now if guys like Cole and O'Reilly got signed, you'd see people like Lio Rush and Matt Riddle become the biggest names. The indies will always have new faces coming up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 5:55:01 GMT -5
There are always new wrestlers getting trained, who are eager to earn lower card spots to gain experience. Guys who have been in the lower card spots are always working on shows and getting more ring time, to prepare themselves for being elevated to mid-card status. Mid-carders are always fine tuning their skills to prepare for the opportunity of working matches at the top of the card, when the current main eventers get signed.
Kyle O'Reilly was basically in ROH enhancement matches back in 2011. Given time, he rose to the top of the card because of additional experience. The same is true for a ton of guys. Main eventers were all rookies previously. Some guys in opening matches right now will develop into completely different (more skilled) wrestlers over the next few years, to the point that they are the main eventers.
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percymania
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Post by percymania on Dec 19, 2016 6:36:49 GMT -5
I don't even consider Omega, Cole and Briscoes to be "Indy" talent because of their prohibited contracts with NJPW and ROH. There are plenty of other guys out there ready to step up to their level. Ricochet, Lio Rush, Matt Riddle, Keith Lee, Chuck Taylor, Sammy Guevara, Jeff Cobb and Donovan Dijak are just few names off the top of my head that are on the verge of becoming big stars.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 19, 2016 6:37:13 GMT -5
Yeah, there'll always be new talent; I think the greater fear is if WWE swoops up too many people too quickly, then a lot of the companies may shut down or have to run on smaller budgets, thus limiting the places where the new guys can get exposure and experience, and that could wind up limiting the sheer amount of new talent that sticks it out and tries to make a career of wrestling.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 19, 2016 8:46:20 GMT -5
People been predicting the end of indies every since Rob Van Dam signed a ECW contract. We hear the same arguments with professional sports. How this college football team can't survive losing its top stars to the NFL draft. Or this MLB team is doomed because they lost major contributors to free agency. And we keep getting proven wrong. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people grinding in the indies waiting for a shot. Some will get it and break out. Others will just fade away. The only way the indies will stop making stars is if people stop going to watch those shows. Which will shrink the number of places to work and lower the amount of those who dream of making it big in professional wrestling.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 19, 2016 22:20:55 GMT -5
There's always talent ready to step up they just need a platform.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 20, 2016 0:51:41 GMT -5
Yeah, there'll always be new talent; I think the greater fear is if WWE swoops up too many people too quickly, then a lot of the companies may shut down or have to run on smaller budgets, thus limiting the places where the new guys can get exposure and experience, and that could wind up limiting the sheer amount of new talent that sticks it out and tries to make a career of wrestling. On the contrary, pro wrestling budgets are weird, since wrestling is one of the few entertainment areas that'll have more success possible with a SMALL budget than it does with a big budget. If promotions run on smaller budgets, that is not only not a hindrance to new talent, but it's actually FAR EASIER for the indies to start to regenerate stars, solely because newer talent is far cheaper than established names. It'd also bring a territory aspect to the indy scene that's completely gone right now- as it stands on the indy scene, the top indy promotions book pretty much all of the same stars and run the same basic shows- and a smaller budget inevitably means that instead of paying for someone like the Young Bucks or Adam Cole to show up, you'll have to give more opportunities to graduates of your training school and cherrypick promising talents from the local smaller indy feds, which in turn means they have to cherrypick promising talents from the shindies, and giving more opportunities instead of less to newer talent. The people who'd get hurt would actually be the indy standouts at the top of the food chain instead of at the lower end of the indy scene, and that's also good for the wrestling scene as a whole- if we assume that in this scenario WWE signs up "every somewhat marketable independent wrestler", then there'd inevitably be the people at the top of the indy scene who would slip through the cracks and be rejected by WWE...while the lower budget means that they also lose their chances at the amount of bookings that a big indy name would expect beforehand and be lowered to shows in their home region. This would be bad for the worker immediately...but also could be a benefit for the other feds- because if their bookings will fall that much and they found out that WWE isn't interested, that's the moment when these workers finally decide "okay, I'm signing an exclusive contract with Lucha Underground, Ring of Honor, or TNA"...and in the process, improving their rosters enough so that THEY can get some top talents as well and remain viable or relevant if WWE gets this many stars.
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Post by Oak: Certified Jade Hater on Dec 20, 2016 1:14:00 GMT -5
Just looking at my local indy, there are some guys who have the talent to break out. SoCal is mostly known for PWG, but there are plenty of placed around that have good talent. Jeff Cobb started out around here and now he's in great demand.
Indies always replenish. We lost Joe and Punk, which led to the rise of Danielson and Nigel. When they left, Steen and Generico. Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly. Matt Riddle is making huge waves, Will Ospreay is getting more looks day by day, Lio Rush and Joey Janela are getting save reviews.... the indies always survive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 1:52:34 GMT -5
Yeah, there'll always be new talent; I think the greater fear is if WWE swoops up too many people too quickly, then a lot of the companies may shut down or have to run on smaller budgets, thus limiting the places where the new guys can get exposure and experience, and that could wind up limiting the sheer amount of new talent that sticks it out and tries to make a career of wrestling. On the contrary, pro wrestling budgets are weird, since wrestling is one of the few entertainment areas that'll have more success possible with a SMALL budget than it does with a big budget. Exactly. I don't see any indies being forced to shut down because of spending less money on talent than they were previously. If anything, spending less means they stand a better chance of turning a profit. History has proven the same fans will typically keep coming to watch the shows after some talents have "graduated" to WWE. They're spending the same money on tickets as they were when the promotion had to pay those guys who were about to leave considerably more than they'd pay the rest of the roster. Overspending is typically what causes companies to fold. Using ROH as the example (obviously these numbers are guesses, but likely close to accurate), it was better for them, financially, to pay Steen and Generico $150 per show in 2006 than it was keep paying Punk and Joe $800 per show. Then it was better to start paying Tyler Black a small amount instead of continuing to pay Bryan Danielson a large amount. Then a few years later, start paying Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly a small amount instead of continuing to pay Tyler Black, Steen, and Generico large amounts. The cycle always continues. When Cole and O'Reilly leave, new guys will be elevated into their spots, and in the meantime, those highly paid guys leaving actually helps the promotion cut expenses.
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Post by Viking Hall on Dec 20, 2016 8:21:17 GMT -5
So with this in mind then, who are some educated guesses to look out for when it comes to filling out those potential spots in the next 3-5 years?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 20, 2016 9:30:43 GMT -5
So with this in mind then, who are some educated guesses to look out for when it comes to filling out those potential spots in the next 3-5 years? as in next big indy stars? Joey Janella, Lio Rush, David Starr, Shane Strickland/Killshot, Joe Gacy, Chris Dickenson, Tracy Williams, Fred Yahi, Dezmond Xavier, Zachary Wentz, Jaka, Matt Riddle, Laszlo Arpad, Maxwell Jacob Feinstein, Jimmy Llyod
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Post by froggyfrog on Dec 20, 2016 11:27:36 GMT -5
So with this in mind then, who are some educated guesses to look out for when it comes to filling out those potential spots in the next 3-5 years? CZW has consistently been at the forefront of people breaking or on the indies for the last few years. I'd keep an eye on Joey Janela, Lio Rush, Speedball Mike Bailey (when he gets back in the US), David Starr, JT Dunn, and Chris Dickinson. Among others
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 11:50:52 GMT -5
So with this in mind then, who are some educated guesses to look out for when it comes to filling out those potential spots in the next 3-5 years? I think Dalton Castle wil be an Indy main eventer by then.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 20, 2016 13:03:41 GMT -5
WWE can't keep their hiring pace going forever; they're in a kick now between their expansions and, likely, Triple H prepping for the transfer of power and wanting to make sure he's got a ready-to-go roster up that's up and down mostly "his" guys with the same favoritism every other booker/owner/head of talent relations has shown. But they're not WCW paying people six figures to do nothing just because. It would take signing dozens of guys overnight and a plethora of contract breaches to be able to kill the independent scene.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 20, 2016 15:11:48 GMT -5
WWE can't keep their hiring pace going forever; they're in a kick now between their expansions and, likely, Triple H prepping for the transfer of power and wanting to make sure he's got a ready-to-go roster up that's up and down mostly "his" guys with the same favoritism every other booker/owner/head of talent relations has shown. But they're not WCW paying people six figures to do nothing just because. It would take signing dozens of guys overnight and a plethora of contract breaches to be able to kill the independent scene. In addition to that, even *that* would be an example of the indy wrestling paradox. Even if WWE signed dozens of guys overnight and a plethora of contract breaches, it would hurt the indy scene- but they'd regenerate stars. Paradoxically, the only way WWE talent relations could kill the independent scene overnight is not by WWE BINGING on independent standouts, but rather by WWE PURGING on indy standouts. A big signing spree by WWE that plucked every indy star of any value away from the company would hurt immediately, but the indies would regenerate quickly with new indy standouts. By contrast, though- if, by chance, we saw a Black Wednesday happen tomorrow, and this presumable Black Wednesday happened to cut a bunch of lesser names from the roster and trim some fat...say, for a feasible example: Bo Dallas, Gallows and Anderson, R-Truth, Emma, Paige, Summer Rae, Tamina, Drew Gulak, Anthony Nese, The Bollywood Boyz Lince Dorado, Mustafa Ali, Tajiri, Rich Swann, TJ Perkins, Tozawa, Apollo Crews, The Vaudevillains, Naomi Kalisto, The Ascension, Luke Harper, Tyler Breeze, Zack Ryder, Natalya ...and if that's not enough, throw in some feasible- possibly even slightly high cuts from NXT... Austin Aries, Andrade Almas,Eric Young, Hideo Itami, TM-61, Oney Lorcan, Blake and Murphy, Billie Kay, Peyton Royce ...and if that's also there, they'd probably make some backstage cuts as well, and Vince McMahon is pretty whimsical. Let's say the cuts there look like... Drake Wuertz, Jason Albert, Adam Pearce, Mikaze, Sara Del Rey, Sarah Stock, Jimmy Jacobs, RD Evans On paper, that purge looks like it would absolutely be a godsend for the independent scene- a huge mix of proven independent standouts and people who had enough street cred from acclaimed runs in NXT (or in Tamina/Naomi's case, the Divas' Revolution last year) to guarantee they'd get a lot of looks from the major independent promotions trying to sign them...and even the backstage people would give value as actual performers to anyone there. If that firing spree happened tomorrow, it'd be a Festivus Miracle for the independent scene... ...and in the process, THAT would kill the independent circuit more than any firing spree. The WWE purging its roster to that level and suddenly sending 48 proven talents like that to the independent circuit would pretty much say that at least for 2017, THAT ROSTER is your main event scene throughout the indy circuit, and there'd be so many of them released there that even if the international talents choose to go back to their home countries and/or signing on with New Japan, ROH, Lucha Underground, or TNA, plus some of the smoke and mirrors jobs by NXT proving they weren't as good as advertised- even then, that roster would be the people main eventing everywhere from PWG and CZW all the way down to the local shindy. You would not see a promotion run a show for 2017 (and possibly even 2018) that does not have AT LEAST ONE of those people on the card. When THAT happens, then suddenly the indy scene wouldn't be able to regenerate new talents just because of how shiny the WWE purge was and how proven the former WWE/NXT superstar name on the marquee would be to get a big sellout...and THAT would hurt the indy regeneration more than anything.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 20, 2016 20:51:07 GMT -5
You would not see a promotion run a show for 2017 (and possibly even 2018) that does not have AT LEAST ONE of those people on the card. Only if you limited it to a specific set number of promotions. In reality, there are far too many promotions going on that would keep that from actually happening. Even a crowd that size would disperse and fragment. The ones that do get one or two of these as regulars...that's not going to be a problem and can be beneficial, giving a credible vet a roster spot to help bring others to their level. Plus there seems to be some new promotion with a strong start popping up all the time again. Also the individual factor. As we've seen with other mass firings, not everyone goes right back into the game. Some move on to pursue other dreams, some just decide they made it as far as they could, some decide to take a break and collect themselves. I see your points, but just argue that it's not as doom as it sounds in theory.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 21, 2016 0:04:16 GMT -5
You would not see a promotion run a show for 2017 (and possibly even 2018) that does not have AT LEAST ONE of those people on the card. Only if you limited it to a specific set number of promotions. In reality, there are far too many promotions going on that would keep that from actually happening. Even a crowd that size would disperse and fragment. The ones that do get one or two of these as regulars...that's not going to be a problem and can be beneficial, giving a credible vet a roster spot to help bring others to their level. Plus there seems to be some new promotion with a strong start popping up all the time again. Also the individual factor. As we've seen with other mass firings, not everyone goes right back into the game. Some move on to pursue other dreams, some just decide they made it as far as they could, some decide to take a break and collect themselves. I see your points, but just argue that it's not as doom as it sounds in theory. It may not be as much there, but the same point would be there: WWE getting rid of a lot of proven indy names from the roster would do more to hurt the indies regenerating their stars than WWE signed away everyone from the indy scene would hurt the indies regenerating stars- just because they would take spots at the top of the indy scene that would be necessary for the indies to regenerate their new stars. We just don't have a large enough sample size to know firsthand, since it's rare that enough proven indy draws were gone at the same time. Usually WWE just releases one indy star in a while (for instance, Chris Hero and Sami Callihan, who went back to the indies and didn't skip a beat, only causing slight ripples in the pool without a huge change), so there's never a big enough exodus to really change things.
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