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Post by Milkman Norm on Feb 11, 2017 16:35:15 GMT -5
So taking the potential cheating issue out of this thread the main argument is that Montana was better because he and 49ers never lost a Super Bowl. Now am I the only one that thinks this is incredibly stupid logic? Because it comes down to the idea that you should be punished for winning your conference more than for losing in the Wild Card- Conference Title game. Anyone else find this insanely dumb?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 11, 2017 20:33:30 GMT -5
Just numbers wise it's a weird argument. Yeah, Montana was 4 out of 4. Meanwhile, Brady got to three more, winning one of those. He almost doubled Joe's appearances. Presumably making it to more Superbowls is harder than not making it.
Still, if you want to put one of them at 1 and one at 1a, I've got no problem with the order.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on Feb 11, 2017 21:52:31 GMT -5
Montana's great, but not immortal. He lost his fair share of playoff games that he maybe should've won, like in '87, '90, also never getting to the Super Bowl with Kansas City (he was only there for 2 years, but the team was stacked.)
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Feb 11, 2017 21:54:01 GMT -5
I will say one thing in favor for Tom Brady is that he has achieved more with less talent around him. Not that he played with a bunch of schlubs. Montana did have one major advantage, arguably the greatest WR of all times, Jerry Rice.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Feb 12, 2017 0:58:47 GMT -5
The Patriots defenses of the early 2000's is ridiculously underrated. It's not bursting with HOFers but it's stacked with those guys who are borderline, a step below or top 3/4 of the league. I just watched the Pats/Rams superbowl on NFL network, that defense is FAST and TOUGH... and it got better.
Sadly, it was the same D just older and slower come 2007. The Pats defense of this run will probably never get the respect they deserve cause it's not inflated with one or two guys who are stat monsters but they're spread out through the roster.
On offense Montana did win 2 Super Bowls prior to Jerry Rice, and one season when Montana was injured Young had 10 TDs and 0 INTs filling in.
It was tougher to throw for yards and TDs back then, but today the vast majority of the workload falls on the QB. Sure Corey Dillion was great in 2004, and Antowain Smith held his own in 2001, but Brady never had the consistency of Roger Craig
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Feb 12, 2017 1:15:52 GMT -5
I will say one thing in favor for Tom Brady is that he has achieved more with less talent around him. Not that he played with a bunch of schlubs. Montana did have one major advantage, arguably the greatest WR of all times, Jerry Rice. Saying it as a Patriots fan, though, that has to be a counter-advantage that helps Brady more that he played with Adam Vinatieri and then Stephen Gostkowski, two of the most reliable kickers of this era (and you can make a strong case they're 1-2 for "reliable kicker" of this era). We saw how big an advantage that is with St. Louis and Carolina's Super Bowls- Brady wasn't a world-beater in either game. Brady's great at game winning drives and most of his Super Bowl wins had that- but in those, having a great special teams unit and a kicker you can set your watch to may be MORE important than having the greatest WR of all time that you can throw it to. A great WR will guarantee he catches the ball and be able to run it through to the end zone- but if you have a reliable kicker, you can get away with far more mistakes on that game ending drive, solely because you know if you can keep the score to within a field goal, you just have to get your game winning drive as close as the opponents' 35-40 and inherently know the kicker WILL MAKE IT.
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andrew8798
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Post by andrew8798 on Feb 12, 2017 1:23:41 GMT -5
Its hard to compare eras who to say if Joe came around today he wouldn't be in the SB every year
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Feb 12, 2017 1:36:24 GMT -5
Its hard to compare eras who to say if Joe came around today he wouldn't be in the SB every year And thats the thing, eras are so different and so is the level of play. You can do a "Best of" by decade, but its not fair to compare eras.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Feb 12, 2017 2:46:40 GMT -5
I will say one thing in favor for Tom Brady is that he has achieved more with less talent around him. Not that he played with a bunch of schlubs. Montana did have one major advantage, arguably the greatest WR of all times, Jerry Rice. Bill Walsh also has a role as well. Montana also had a loaded roster, and they were also excellent on defense as well, especially the secondary (led by Ronnie Lott), which gets overlooked. What most people overlook about Marino and the Dolphins' loss in SB19 was that Marino was throwing against a 49ers secondary that had all its starters make the Pro Bowl, including Lott.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Feb 12, 2017 6:57:03 GMT -5
Montana's great, but not immortal. He lost his fair share of playoff games that he maybe should've won, like in '87, '90, also never getting to the Super Bowl with Kansas City (he was only there for 2 years, but the team was stacked.) Montana is unquestionably immortal. Saying he's not because he lost playoff games that he should've won is a bad argument...because, if we're going by that logic, than Brady isn't immortal either, since he also lost playoff games that he should've won. Also, guys like Favre, Aikman, Elway...they aren't immortal either, since, ya know, they also lost playoff games they should've won. Don't even get me started on your "He didn't get to the Super Bowl with 2 different teams? Well, I guess he's not as good as people say he is" argument.
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Post by sfvega on Feb 12, 2017 7:04:55 GMT -5
I will say one thing in favor for Tom Brady is that he has achieved more with less talent around him. Not that he played with a bunch of schlubs. Montana did have one major advantage, arguably the greatest WR of all times, Jerry Rice. If we're talking one major advantage, it's Bill Belicheck. And I hate the Pats, and I know Walsh has his own giant redwood of a coaching tree. But Belicheck isn't just an all-time great coach, he's like some sort of football wizard. His gameplanning, his in-game adjustments. If you told me the guy didn't sell his soul to have some god-like football coaching ability, I flat out wouldn't believe you.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Feb 12, 2017 11:49:14 GMT -5
Its hard to compare eras who to say if Joe came around today he wouldn't be in the SB every year But you could say the same thing about Roger Staubauch, or Otto Graham or any other great QB from prior era's. Plus the point is people do compare and the comparisons are all "Brady did this..so what. Montana do this better"
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BRV
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Post by BRV on Feb 12, 2017 12:27:34 GMT -5
The argument of 4-0 vs. 5-2 has always made little sense to me because why would you dock Tom Brady for guiding his team to two Super Bowls? Shouldn't more credit be given for winning Conference Championship Games and appearing in Super Bowls than losing earlier playoff games and altogether missing the Super Bowl?
Also, with Brady, it's not like he's directly responsible for the two Super Bowl losses. He didn't piss away those opportunities. In both losses, he left the field with the lead and under four minutes to play. His defense let him down. Had the defenses in 2007 or 2011 been able to make a stop in either situation, it's very possible that Brady has a 7-0 record in Super Bowls.
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Post by Raw is Doodie101 on Feb 12, 2017 12:45:20 GMT -5
I will say one thing in favor for Tom Brady is that he has achieved more with less talent around him. Not that he played with a bunch of schlubs. Montana did have one major advantage, arguably the greatest WR of all times, Jerry Rice. He won 2 championships before Rice got there tho.....
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Feb 12, 2017 13:33:10 GMT -5
Besides Brady-Belichick, and Montana-Walsh, here are other notable successful QB-coach combos: - Starr and Lombardi
- Bradshaw and Noll
- Staubach and Landry
- Favre and Holmgren
- Aikman and Johnson
- Peyton and Dungy (the best coach Peyton had, IMO)
- Eli and Coughlin
- Roethlisberger and Tomlin
- Brees and Payton
- Rodgers and McCarthy
- Flacco and Harbaugh
- Wilson and Carroll
It takes more than just a QB to be successful.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Feb 12, 2017 22:30:22 GMT -5
Besides Brady-Belichick, and Montana-Walsh, here are other notable successful QB-coach combos: - Starr and Lombardi
- Bradshaw and Noll
- Staubach and Landry
- Favre and Holmgren
- Aikman and Johnson
- Peyton and Dungy (the best coach Peyton had, IMO)
- Eli and Coughlin
- Roethlisberger and Tomlin
- Brees and Payton
- Rodgers and McCarthy
- Flacco and Harbaugh
- Wilson and Carroll
It takes more than just a QB to be successful. I'd argue some of those QBs made some of those coaches. Dungy without Manning is mediocre. Hell the season he left the Colts laid down instead of going for an undefeated streak.
I also think Troy Aikman is the most overrated QB not named Elway.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Feb 13, 2017 0:07:44 GMT -5
Montana grew up ten minutes away from me. I've met him. Montana wins.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Feb 13, 2017 0:57:14 GMT -5
Besides Brady-Belichick, and Montana-Walsh, here are other notable successful QB-coach combos: - Starr and Lombardi
- Bradshaw and Noll
- Staubach and Landry
- Favre and Holmgren
- Aikman and Johnson
- Peyton and Dungy (the best coach Peyton had, IMO)
- Eli and Coughlin
- Roethlisberger and Tomlin
- Brees and Payton
- Rodgers and McCarthy
- Flacco and Harbaugh
- Wilson and Carroll
It takes more than just a QB to be successful. I'd argue some of those QBs made some of those coaches. Dungy without Manning is mediocre. Hell the season he left the Colts laid down instead of going for an undefeated streak.
I also think Troy Aikman is the most overrated QB not named Elway.
You can blame Bill Polian for ordering the Colts to pull their starters in 2009; he said at the time that a perfect season was not their goal. Also, Dungy was decent during his time with the Bucs; when Jon Gruden took over, the Bucs won SB37 with Dungy's players and coaching staff.
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Post by Ganon83 on Feb 13, 2017 1:07:59 GMT -5
I don't think Flacco and Harbaugh should be on the same list as Starr and Lombardi
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Post by Nickybojelais on Feb 13, 2017 23:18:21 GMT -5
The feats of Brady and Montana as the two greatest QBs are even more impressive when you see where they went in their respective drafts. Montana going with the very last pick of the third and Brady waiting until the end of the sixth.
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