sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 14, 2017 6:50:04 GMT -5
The argument of 4-0 vs. 5-2 has always made little sense to me because why would you dock Tom Brady for guiding his team to two Super Bowls? Shouldn't more credit be given for winning Conference Championship Games and appearing in Super Bowls than losing earlier playoff games and altogether missing the Super Bowl? Also, with Brady, it's not like he's directly responsible for the two Super Bowl losses. He didn't piss away those opportunities. In both losses, he left the field with the lead and under four minutes to play. His defense let him down. Had the defenses in 2007 or 2011 been able to make a stop in either situation, it's very possible that Brady has a 7-0 record in Super Bowls. The Pats had an all-time offense and only put up 14 points in that Super Bowl. It's kinda revisionist history to say that their defense blew it. Their defense quite arguably outplayed their offense in that game.
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 14, 2017 6:54:09 GMT -5
Besides Brady-Belichick, and Montana-Walsh, here are other notable successful QB-coach combos: - Starr and Lombardi
- Bradshaw and Noll
- Staubach and Landry
- Favre and Holmgren
- Aikman and Johnson
- Peyton and Dungy (the best coach Peyton had, IMO)
- Eli and Coughlin
- Roethlisberger and Tomlin
- Brees and Payton
- Rodgers and McCarthy
- Flacco and Harbaugh
- Wilson and Carroll
It takes more than just a QB to be successful. I'd argue some of those QBs made some of those coaches. Dungy without Manning is mediocre. Hell the season he left the Colts laid down instead of going for an undefeated streak.
I also think Troy Aikman is the most overrated QB not named Elway.
Dungy wasn't an offensive guy, so he didn't really have much to do with Peyton's success. But to say that Manning made him.....hoooo boy, your opinion is just wrong.
|
|
Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,416
|
Post by Ben Wyatt on Feb 14, 2017 7:24:05 GMT -5
To me, they've been 1 and 1A for a while now, but with the 5th Superbowl ring for Brady, the order has switched
|
|
|
Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Feb 14, 2017 11:45:35 GMT -5
I'd argue some of those QBs made some of those coaches. Dungy without Manning is mediocre. Hell the season he left the Colts laid down instead of going for an undefeated streak.
I also think Troy Aikman is the most overrated QB not named Elway.
Dungy wasn't an offensive guy, so he didn't really have much to do with Peyton's success. But to say that Manning made him.....hoooo boy, your opinion is just wrong. Opinions can't be wrong, but I'd argue a guy who spent six years in Tampa Bay with 2 playoff wins to be replaced with a guy who immediately takes them to the Super Bowl and then leave a team and have a comical failure of a coach in Jim Caldwell take over and have the Colts have a 14-2 season I'd say these are great arguments against the "greatness" of Dungy.
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 14, 2017 18:55:32 GMT -5
Dungy wasn't an offensive guy, so he didn't really have much to do with Peyton's success. But to say that Manning made him.....hoooo boy, your opinion is just wrong. Opinions can't be wrong, but I'd argue a guy who spent six years in Tampa Bay with 2 playoff wins to be replaced with a guy who immediately takes them to the Super Bowl and then leave a team and have a comical failure of a coach in Jim Caldwell take over and have the Colts have a 14-2 season I'd say these are great arguments against the "greatness" of Dungy. The opinion thing was a joke. There's a long way between great and mediocre. Tampa was a trash franchise until he got there, and his loyalty to a shit OC sunk him. The bottom line is Dungy has a .67 win %. Which is A) Well above average and B) Markedly better than those teams were before him. Gruden also only won 3 playoff games in what, 8 seasons there?
|
|
BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,767
|
Post by BRV on Feb 14, 2017 20:45:43 GMT -5
The Pats had an all-time offense and only put up 14 points in that Super Bowl. It's kinda revisionist history to say that their defense blew it. Their defense quite arguably outplayed their offense in that game. At the moment he walked off the field with a 14-10 lead and 2:42 remaining in the game, Tom Brady was 29-of-45 for 266 yards and a touchdown. Obviously, that's not on par with the record-breaking numbers he'd been putting up for much of the 2007 season, but by no means is that a bad game. Tom Brady isn't the reason the offense only scored 14 points that night, his offensive line being a sieve and Laurence Maroney rushing for only 39 yards on 14 carries after consecutive 100-yard performances is much more to blame. I still maintain that the defense blew it. They had surrendered 10 points for 57:18 of Super Bowl XLII and all they had to do was keep the Giants out of the end zone on that final drive and they couldn't get the job done.
|
|
|
Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Feb 14, 2017 22:21:42 GMT -5
Opinions can't be wrong, but I'd argue a guy who spent six years in Tampa Bay with 2 playoff wins to be replaced with a guy who immediately takes them to the Super Bowl and then leave a team and have a comical failure of a coach in Jim Caldwell take over and have the Colts have a 14-2 season I'd say these are great arguments against the "greatness" of Dungy. The opinion thing was a joke. There's a long way between great and mediocre. Tampa was a trash franchise until he got there, and his loyalty to a shit OC sunk him. The bottom line is Dungy has a .67 win %. Which is A) Well above average and B) Markedly better than those teams were before him. Gruden also only won 3 playoff games in what, 8 seasons there?
Dungy walked into a team that threw for FIVE touchdowns the year before but had a young defense of rookies and second year guys (Brooks/Lynch/Sapp/Abraham) Was given Dunn and Alstott and never got over the hump, ever.
They gave the same team to Gruden and he won the Super Bowl.
Dungy walked into a team with an emerging all time top 5 QB, a top 5 running back at the time, one of the best WR ever and within a year another top ten of his era WR.
Gifted with some terrific young defensive players, the defense was bottom 3/4 as often as they were top 3/4.
Maybe mediocre is too strong a term, i'd consider slightly above average
|
|
|
Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Feb 14, 2017 22:29:29 GMT -5
The Pats had an all-time offense and only put up 14 points in that Super Bowl. It's kinda revisionist history to say that their defense blew it. Their defense quite arguably outplayed their offense in that game. At the moment he walked off the field with a 14-10 lead and 2:42 remaining in the game, Tom Brady was 29-of-45 for 266 yards and a touchdown. Obviously, that's not on par with the record-breaking numbers he'd been putting up for much of the 2007 season, but by no means is that a bad game. Tom Brady isn't the reason the offense only scored 14 points that night, his offensive line being a sieve and Laurence Maroney rushing for only 39 yards on 14 carries after consecutive 100-yard performances is much more to blame. I still maintain that the defense blew it. They had surrendered 10 points for 57:18 of Super Bowl XLII and all they had to do was keep the Giants out of the end zone on that final drive and they couldn't get the job done. Nobody blew it. Giants defense played great and put on an all time defensive effort as good as you'll ever see. The Pats offensive line couldn't keep up.
Also the Patriots defense was OLD, lots of great players who had lost a step or two.
Does a 30 year old Rodney Harrison allow David Tyree to hold onto that ball or does he rip his head off?
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 15, 2017 3:16:49 GMT -5
The opinion thing was a joke. There's a long way between great and mediocre. Tampa was a trash franchise until he got there, and his loyalty to a shit OC sunk him. The bottom line is Dungy has a .67 win %. Which is A) Well above average and B) Markedly better than those teams were before him. Gruden also only won 3 playoff games in what, 8 seasons there?
Dungy walked into a team that threw for FIVE touchdowns the year before but had a young defense of rookies and second year guys (Brooks/Lynch/Sapp/Abraham) Was given Dunn and Alstott and never got over the hump, ever.
They gave the same team to Gruden and he won the Super Bowl.
Dungy walked into a team with an emerging all time top 5 QB, a top 5 running back at the time, one of the best WR ever and within a year another top ten of his era WR.
Gifted with some terrific young defensive players, the defense was bottom 3/4 as often as they were top 3/4.
Maybe mediocre is too strong a term, i'd consider slightly above average
First off, you're talking to a guy who was a die hard Bucs fan for 20 years. Sapp and Brooks were uber talented, but they were also guys who were an amazing fit for the Tampa 2 Dungy ran. In another system, they're still great, but not as great as they were. Lynch didn't do ANYTHING until Dungy came to town. He was in his 4th year, and broke out in LARGE part due to Dungy. This isn't Dungy coming in and benefiting from an established guy. It's Lynch was aimless when Dungy got there and a Pro Bowler after. Now, Hardy was there and already a stud. So the defense wasn't anywhere near anything that they became. The year prior, the Bucs were 12th in scoring defense and 27th in yardage defense. And guys grew by leaps and bounds under him. Not just guys like Brooks and Lynch, but Barber later and Quarles and Culpepper. Not only that but Dungy put together an amazing staff around him that got the best out of guys. Monte Kiffin and Rod Marinelli and Lovie and Herm, and eventually Mike Tomlin and Joe Barry to replace Lovie and Herm. So much of what that team became is because of Dungy. Also, Gruden's team was very different. No Dunn, replaced with Pittman. It was McCardell's first year on that team, Juevicius' first year, Dilger and Dudley's first year. So you're talking different RB, #2 and #3 WR, different TEs. And Brad Johnson fit Gruden's offense to a tee. People don't understand how different those teams were. The team Dungy took over had Peyton, Harrison, and Edge and they went 6-10. This is just slanted so badly. You're making it out like Dungy is just some guy who fell ass backward into great teams. You give Gruden more credit for taking a team who made the playoffs the previous 3 seasons (including a NFCCG they should have had a chance to win if not for the Bert Emmanuel rule) to the SB than you give Dungy credit for turning around a shitty team into a playoff team (twice).
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 15, 2017 3:26:32 GMT -5
The Pats had an all-time offense and only put up 14 points in that Super Bowl. It's kinda revisionist history to say that their defense blew it. Their defense quite arguably outplayed their offense in that game. At the moment he walked off the field with a 14-10 lead and 2:42 remaining in the game, Tom Brady was 29-of-45 for 266 yards and a touchdown. Obviously, that's not on par with the record-breaking numbers he'd been putting up for much of the 2007 season, but by no means is that a bad game. Tom Brady isn't the reason the offense only scored 14 points that night, his offensive line being a sieve and Laurence Maroney rushing for only 39 yards on 14 carries after consecutive 100-yard performances is much more to blame. I still maintain that the defense blew it. They had surrendered 10 points for 57:18 of Super Bowl XLII and all they had to do was keep the Giants out of the end zone on that final drive and they couldn't get the job done. Even blaming the OL and Maroney, the defense still outplayed the offense by a good margin. They even needed Hobbs to drop an INT and the greatest catch ever (over good defense) to get that last drive. Just because Brady and the Pats put together a drive late to put up a huge 14 on the scoreboard, doesn't mean they deserved to win. In week 17, they put 38 on the Giants. Now 14 points is good enough to win the SB? Brady is the same guy that we're talking about now as the best of all time. You're saying with this record breaking offense that 266 yards and "not bad" is good enough?
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 15, 2017 3:36:09 GMT -5
At the moment he walked off the field with a 14-10 lead and 2:42 remaining in the game, Tom Brady was 29-of-45 for 266 yards and a touchdown. Obviously, that's not on par with the record-breaking numbers he'd been putting up for much of the 2007 season, but by no means is that a bad game. Tom Brady isn't the reason the offense only scored 14 points that night, his offensive line being a sieve and Laurence Maroney rushing for only 39 yards on 14 carries after consecutive 100-yard performances is much more to blame. I still maintain that the defense blew it. They had surrendered 10 points for 57:18 of Super Bowl XLII and all they had to do was keep the Giants out of the end zone on that final drive and they couldn't get the job done. Nobody blew it. Giants defense played great and put on an all time defensive effort as good as you'll ever see. The Pats offensive line couldn't keep up.
Also the Patriots defense was OLD, lots of great players who had lost a step or two.
Does a 30 year old Rodney Harrison allow David Tyree to hold onto that ball or does he rip his head off?
Harrison played that ball as well as anyone could. Being flat-footed, there's no real way to try and separate Tyree from the ball any way other than what he did. I mean, MAYBE if he punched him in the groin, Tyree might have dropped it. But even then, I think Tyree would have found a way to hold on.
|
|
|
Post by arrogantmodel on Feb 18, 2017 5:23:37 GMT -5
Opinions can't be wrong, but I'd argue a guy who spent six years in Tampa Bay with 2 playoff wins to be replaced with a guy who immediately takes them to the Super Bowl and then leave a team and have a comical failure of a coach in Jim Caldwell take over and have the Colts have a 14-2 season I'd say these are great arguments against the "greatness" of Dungy. The opinion thing was a joke. There's a long way between great and mediocre. Tampa was a trash franchise until he got there, and his loyalty to a shit OC sunk him. The bottom line is Dungy has a .67 win %. Which is A) Well above average and B) Markedly better than those teams were before him. Gruden also only won 3 playoff games in what, 8 seasons there? Where would Gruden be ranked if the tuck rule doesn't happen? Say the Raiders beat the Rams. There would be little incentive to leave Oakland, but Gruden still does. He wins again with the Bucs. What kind of coaching genius would Gruden be if he won back to back Super Bowls with two different teams?
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 18, 2017 5:57:23 GMT -5
The opinion thing was a joke. There's a long way between great and mediocre. Tampa was a trash franchise until he got there, and his loyalty to a shit OC sunk him. The bottom line is Dungy has a .67 win %. Which is A) Well above average and B) Markedly better than those teams were before him. Gruden also only won 3 playoff games in what, 8 seasons there? Where would Gruden be ranked if the tuck rule doesn't happen? Say the Raiders beat the Rams. There would be little incentive to leave Oakland, but Gruden still does. He wins again with the Bucs. What kind of coaching genius would Gruden be if he won back to back Super Bowls with two different teams? Even Davis at his batshit craziest couldn't trade a guy who just won a SB. If he won a SB in Oakland, that deal doesn't happen for years at least.
|
|
|
Post by arrogantmodel on Feb 18, 2017 6:08:16 GMT -5
Where would Gruden be ranked if the tuck rule doesn't happen? Say the Raiders beat the Rams. There would be little incentive to leave Oakland, but Gruden still does. He wins again with the Bucs. What kind of coaching genius would Gruden be if he won back to back Super Bowls with two different teams? Even Davis at his batshit craziest couldn't trade a guy who just won a SB. If he won a SB in Oakland, that deal doesn't happen for years at least. I agree 100%. Just wondering if Tampa Bay throws a cruise ship full of money at Gruden, and Gruden doesn't like Davis micromanaging. He leaves and pulls off that impressive feat. Like, John Madden went into the hall of fame as a coach. He won one Super Bowl. Should Gruden get the same treatment? Madden should have gone in as an ambassador for football.
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,441
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Feb 18, 2017 7:02:40 GMT -5
Even Davis at his batshit craziest couldn't trade a guy who just won a SB. If he won a SB in Oakland, that deal doesn't happen for years at least. I agree 100%. Just wondering if Tampa Bay throws a cruise ship full of money at Gruden, and Gruden doesn't like Davis micromanaging. He leaves and pulls off that impressive feat. Like, John Madden went into the hall of fame as a coach. He won one Super Bowl. Should Gruden get the same treatment? Madden should have gone in as an ambassador for football. It was a trade though. Bucs already sent 2 firsts, 2 seconds,and 8 mil for him, the price would be way higher if he won the SB and the fans would want Davis' head for trading a coach who just got them a ring.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 120,893
|
Post by Mozenrath on Feb 18, 2017 10:43:25 GMT -5
Brady is a talented man, but even he would have difficulty fighting an entire state.
|
|